posted on March 20, 2001 08:02:42 PM new
godfatherstoys stated he did try searching to find the relatives & was unsuccessful.
Anyone who's done these kinds of searches knows that records from that era can be non-existent, especially for children who often weren't recorded.
Sounds like it was a family burial plot rather than a formal cemetary. Not unheard of in those times.
If your area has any decent deed records, you might be able to research the history of the owners. But, even then, they may have long died out or moved away.
But, no, I wouldn't try to put it up for sale on ebay. Perhaps a better end for it would be to inquire w/the local genealogical or historical societies & see if they would like to have it.
posted on March 20, 2001 08:11:15 PM newAmy: for some folks that rule only applies if people don't holding differing opinions.
Cold? No--just not religious. And, really, what is a headstone? A piece of rock with carvings on it. That's it. How do you folks feel about people touring the pyramids of Egypt? Are they ghouls? Cold? C'mon--they're actually trudging around & through someone's tomb, gawking at the paintings on the walls, many making condescending remarks about a religion that differs from theirs.
posted on March 20, 2001 08:26:54 PM new
Headstone=A marker for the dead, Religious or not, besides that your original guestion was if you would be breaking any laws, and for some it toutch a nerve I think mostly because it was a child. You might want to check on the E-bay site for what is Prohibited, Questionable & Infringing Items, you might find your answer there, good luck to you!
posted on March 20, 2001 08:36:26 PM new
The answer is no.
Ebay states under artifacts.
"Historical graves, tombstones or related markers — These items may not be listed on eBay. While we recognize that some historical grave markers may be privately held within families and legal to sell, eBay is concerned with vandalism that has occurred in graveyards across the world. "
posted on March 20, 2001 08:40:39 PM newgodfatherstoys,
Personally, I'm really glad you brought this up. A few months back I stumbled across a website that lists cemetaries in my area - I did a small bit of research, and discovered that the city sold the land that was formerly the county's Poor Farm Cemetary to a developer. He built a house on it - and that house has been sold 4 times in about 8 years or so. When I drove by it a few weeks ago, I noticed that the house was pretty much the worse for wear: somebody (or some thing) had dented the garage door in several places.
I could not find any "law" that said this can't be done (selling a cemetary, that is), unless it is a federally protected area (like an Indian graveyard, and obviously all of those are not protected).
I would not recommend listing an engraved headstone on eBay, for the very reasons that you have seen in this thread. It would be very upsetting to folks.
Anyway, you might want to look around on the internet, because somebody may well have listed that cemetary and the people who were buried in it, and you could track down Amelia's family that way.
posted on March 20, 2001 10:11:29 PM new
Hi Godfatherstoys (what kind of toys did the Godfather have?)
Here's what I would do: Call the local university, local historical society, see if there is a state archeologist.
Find out why that land was covered up and the graves were not relocated?
You may be a whistle blower. What if that was done illegally? If you live in a town that maybe the city hall/council was in cahoots with the development you may have to go higher.
Anyhow, drama aside, check with folks that care about history, they might know a good place for it.
Not to cast judgement, I would feel wrong doing the same thing.
Also, remember that the families may have died out, graveyards require upkeep and upkeep requires money. Many municipalities don't want to fund it.
I don't even want to think about the coffins. The loss of a child is one of the hardest events a parent can cope with, it may be that with that loss, all hope of "continuing" the family name was lost. Cousins become more and more removed and pretty soon it's just a memory of an elder parent and lost on younger childrens busy lives.
I can't imagine selling it on ebay would be the best step.
OTOH, New Orleans graveyards are pilfered for their gothic accessories...and sold. Doesn't make it ethical.
posted on March 21, 2001 09:15:06 AM new
"it is a FEDERAL CRIME to destroy a cemetary without moving the remains of those that occupy the land" - Gee, I hope not. The parking lot of the New Jersey State Department of Environmental Protection is a paved-over cemetery with remains still beneath it.
The way the law works is after a certain period of time (I think it is 100 years in NJ), you must try and contact the families to have the remains relocated. There are guidelines for trying to accomplish this. If you fail to make family contact within a certain period of time, too bad!
The edge of the parking lot at the DEP is lined with piled up headstones from what was once the cemetery now beneath their asphalt.
posted on March 21, 2001 10:42:22 AM new
I saw a news story in Georgia several years ago about building on top of an old cemetery. The reporter said that Georgia law requires that coffins be dug up and relocated when the land is being developed. If the coffins are not found (rotted to oblivion), then state law requires that one shovelful of dirt (from the "area" where the grave would have been) be moved to a new, secure location. The new location would then be legally recognized as the new grave.
I do wonder why this is so terrible to some folks, but paying and lining up to see all the things taken from King Tut's burial place wasn't.
The major thing I would worry about selling this item is that it would be bought by some wacko rather than some respectful collector - but that's just me - I sure don't expect everyone to share that feeling.
posted on March 21, 2001 11:07:45 AM new
I know there is a cemetary in CT near UConn.
This cemetary has stipulation that 100 years after the last person is buried the land will be turned over to the University for public use.
The graves do not need to be exumed and the entire area and what is built on it or used for becomes a memorial to the people buried there.
Before any action is done relatives can request transfer of remains at no charge.
I thin it is a logical use of land especially when put to good use.
Joe B
posted on March 21, 2001 11:35:45 AM new
since currently the families buy the plot, how can someone just take over without purchasing the plot from the family??
posted on March 21, 2001 11:41:02 AM new
Don't know how it is for all cemetaries but our family plot says that if there's been no activity (and I don't mean from the deceased either), after so many years (and it's a fairly long period), they take possession of the plots back.
posted on March 21, 2001 11:49:52 AM new
redskinfan: "since currently the families buy the plot, how can someone just take over without purchasing the plot from the family?? "
I got the impression that this was probably a small family cemetary, the likes of which are often found on farms or on other large properties. In such cases, the plots are not paid for individually as in the case of most church cemetaries, they are simply part of the property. If somebody else "buys the farm" (so to speak), they get all the land, including the cemetary. Sometimes there will be provisions in the deed for care of the cemetary. Around here it's not uncommon to see a small, enclosed family cemetary in the middle of a sprawling townhouse community that sprung up from a farm that was purchased by a developer.
posted on March 21, 2001 01:15:41 PM newHoldenrex: that's quite a leap, from selling an old headstone to religious fanatics annihilating "unbelievers" statues...
Edited to put in omitted word "statues" (never type while rushing to go back to work )
I just can't type today!!!
Edited to remove extraneous "s"
[ edited by bunnicula on Mar 21, 2001 01:56 PM ]
[ edited by bunnicula on Mar 21, 2001 06:35 PM ]
[ edited by bunnicula on Mar 21, 2001 06:51 PM ]
posted on March 21, 2001 04:35:26 PM new
My post had nothing to do with the Taliban's human atrocities. I just couldn't help but notice that your statement about a headstone being nothing more than a carved rock was remarkably similar to a quote I saw in the newspaper by a Taliban leader who couldn't understand the world's outrage at their intent to destroy two ancient, giant statues of Buddha in Afghanistan (along with a lot of smaller such carvings of Buddha). Trivializing an artifact that is considered sacred or sacrosanct is disrespectful of other people's beliefs. BTW, your point about the Pyramids of Egypt is valid, but it's not a justification for treating other such artifacts in the same manner (two wrongs don't make a right).
posted on March 21, 2001 06:50:03 PM newHoldenrex: sorry, was hurrying to go back to work & omitted the word "statues" (have edited the message). In any case, it is still quite a leap from selling to destroying.
I am not familiar with the article you mention. On my part outrage would have come from the destruction of a work of art rather than for religious reasons. And I'm not saying "two wrongs make a right." My point was that people's outrage about the treatment of religious artifacts is most usually confined to items from their own religion. And especially if said items are of a more modern nature.
As for the headstone in question: the person who started this thread did not go into a graveyard in the dead of night & rip it out; he/she rescued it from destruction after a graveyard was built on by the city; he/she made an effort to find out what family it belonged to & couldn't (not surprising considering its age & paucity of info in the inscription. Given the fact that there are people who collect such items, there's nothing wrong in selling it.
The matter of disurbing graveyards is a moot one--there aren't many places you can go where someone *hasn't* been buried sometime in the past. If we were to avoid every such place, there'd be no place we could walk, much less live, easily.
edited to remove extra "m"
[ edited by bunnicula on Mar 21, 2001 06:50 PM ]
[ edited by bunnicula on Mar 21, 2001 08:57 PM ]
posted on March 21, 2001 08:36:59 PM new
bunnicula: I agree with you that destroying a relic is worse than selling one. However, selling items plundered from graves or other sacred grounds is only marginally better (more on that below).
I can't find the exact article that quoted the Taliban spokesman, but here is an article that might give you an idea of what went on over in Afghanistan:
It does reinforce your notion that it's the relics of other people's faiths that are destroyed (of course, this is nothing new - it goes back to Moses and the golden calf idol and no doubt further).
As for this particular situation - it's rather sticky. The guy came across the tombstone honestly enough and in fact probably ended up preserving it (if there's any "bad guys" in this situation, it's whoever it was who callously cleared them off). I don't know how much effort he put into locating the family (hard to do without a last name on the stone), but this sounds like a family plot. A local genealogist could probably locate the owners of the land during that time period, and perhaps locate living family members who might be interested in it. If there are no family members, or if nobody wants it - then frankly, I'd have no problem with him selling it.
However there are laws against such sales. I disagree with your logic there's nothing wrong with selling it because there are people who collect it - by that reasoning, just about every prohibited item on Ebay would be ok to sell. Also, the very real danger of permitting sale of this tombstone is that other tombstones might come out of the woodwork - from people who also "just happened" to "find" some "discarded" tombstones on a slag heap somewhere (wink, nudge). In fact, the plundering of early American tombstones has become so prolific that some churches have replaced original stones with small, nondescript markers, then store the original stones under lock and key. There is a market for these tombstones, but keep in mind it is most definitely an illegal black market.
You're correct that it's impossible to avoid burial places that have long been forgotten. No doubt we've all had soil on the bottoms of our sneakers that at one time was a human being. But graves are marked for a reason, and recognizable cemeteries should not be plundered. As in this case, there are no doubt developers or other people who have no problem with knowingly paving over cemeteries or other gravesites. But there does seem to be a growing awareness of the sanctity of burial sites. For instance, archeologists have been returning human remains to indigenous tribes for re-internment. In my own city, an unmarked graveyard recently came to light underneath a local playground - the city very quickly removed the playground in favor of a more solemn grassy area with a monument enumerating the names of those buried there.
Eventually, we all turn to forgotten worm food and even our small stone monuments will crumble to dust - but until that time, I think the dead deserve to lie undisturbed, including their tombstone.
This has been a very interesting thread. I know that if my tombstone is stolen, I will come back to haunt the person who takes it. And if their Ebay header says "L@@K" then I will make their life a living hell!
posted on March 21, 2001 08:49:40 PM new
Correct eBay will not allow the sale of the stone but thanks to this exposure I have several sizable offers for the piece. Now what to do? Sell it and risk the rath of ghosts, hauntings and boogiemen not to mention eternal damnation plus the curser pointing judgements of strangers here on AW or spend countless hours and $1.50 a gallon gas searching AGAIN for a long lost family? Let me think....o.k. I thought it out. Excuse me while I contact the high offer and figure a way to fit it in a priority mail box.
Tim
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