posted on March 30, 2001 11:37:20 AM
So... I was wondering if anyone might be able to help me with a problem I just encountered with Paypal. I recently sent someone a credit card payment using Quasi-cash, because what I bought was a non-auction item, and it wasn't from a "paypal" merchant... When I got my credit card statement, I noticed that it had been recorded as a cash advance, and not a regular purchase, so I was charged a $5 transaction fee, in addition to a daily APR interest rate.
Slightly upset, but more inquisitive than anything, I called Paypal and was appalled at their customer service. They flamed me, telling me that I had agreed to it in the user agreement. I ran a search and scoured Paypal's terms of use for any information regarding credit-card debit payments or quasi cash, and there is no mention whatsoever. I tried to tell that to the lovely CSR, who flippantly told me that she had read it somewhere, and that I hadn't looked hard enough. So I asked to speak to her manager. After waiting on hold for about 20 minutes, her manager basically told me to piss off, that it was the bank's doing, and that I was S.O.L. because there was a link somewhere on the payment page explaining that Quasi-cash *might* be treated as a cash advance. I listened to him rant and rave at me telling me how wrong I was and how I was stupid for not asking first, until I told him to back off and hung up.
I talked to my credit card company, and they said that I can't dispute it because I'm not actually disputing the transaction, just the way it was billed. They said that once I give paypal my credit card information, they can do whatever they want with it!
Am I to be expected to click on every single link on their payment page after I've read and have gotten comfortable with their terms of use? What are my rights here??? Aren't they legally obligated to tell me what might happen when I give them my credit card information in their Terms of Use? Has anyone else been scammed by paypal here?
The $10 bucks that i've been cheated out of I'll take as a lesson learned, but knowing that paypal can use my credit card information however they want, just by hiding the information in a tiny link, without having the information displayed right in front of me or told to me in their terms of use... it just disgusts me.
posted on March 30, 2001 11:44:12 AM
There is a way around this you know - just stop using them.
No more headaches, no more access to your bank accounts.
Just stop using them. And inform them why you are stopping. And inform the BBB why you are stopping. And inform any potential customers why you are stopping.
noteye
You might check out planetfeedback.com
My thoughts on this issue have gone 'Un-Surveyed' and may not be of importance to the P.T.B.
posted on March 30, 2001 12:06:19 PM
When I used my Mastercard to send my sister cash via Paypal's quasi-cash, I had to click through a screen warning me that Mastercard COULD consider this a cash advance and to contact my card provider if I had any questions. I was in a hurry so I did it anyways. Learned the hard way that it DOES count as a cash advance with my particular provider. So you should have at least received that screen when you did it. Maybe they've changed it since I did it (maybe a month ago?).
These changes were made at the request of the credit card companies. And it is why there is a breakdown for the type of payment you are making (service, auction, non-auction, quasi-cash).
The quasi-cash option can be considered a cash advance through the credit card company and it is good to check with them before doing the transaction(s).
i understand all of that. Okay, fine. You guys need to make a buck. But why is there NO MENTION of it at all in your Terms of Use??? Of course I found the information by clicking on the little question mark next to the payment options, but I can't be expected to click on every link, can I? It's not like it's part of the user agreement, that I check a button signifying that i've read and understood that this could happen to me!
You guys need to put this clearly in the user agreement... not doing so is deceitful on paypal's part.
Thanks for the suggestion. I think the hope is that users would click on the information next to the transaction, but I will see if I can get the tou modified.
posted on March 30, 2001 12:57:51 PM
Am I seeing this wrong or what? Did your credit card company charge you the $5.00? Not paypal? If this is right, how can you blame paypal? It seems to be the bloodsucking bank you got a credit card with that has cheated you out of the money, not paypal.
*shrug* all banks are bloodsucking. What credit card do you know of that doesn't charge a finance charge when you do a cash advance? I'm just saying that I lost $10 because it wasn't made explicitly clear to me that my transaction would be treated as a cash advance. Neither paypal nor my bank will help me rectify the situation, and it IS paypal's fault because I neither knew about nor agreed to having my credit card debited with a cash advance. What do you care, anyway, you're not the one who was screwed over.
ppd- thanks, but i don't think that you guys can bank on a "hope" that people will click on a link and see the information. There was never a call to action on the button--this is legally shady because the information documenting the credit card transmission method is not stated in your TOU, and I have in no way explicitly agreed to that form of use of my credit card. I'm content with having learned my lesson, but this is the sort of stuff that class action suits are made of.
posted on March 30, 2001 01:53:57 PM
When you use the quasi-cash it does warn you that your bank may charge you a fee if it regards the payment as a cash advance.
If you are an adult person yes - you are expected to read the terms of the agreements you make. If you are unable to understand or take the time to exaimine commercial agreements then it would be best as suggested to avoid using them.
You say they took $5 - then at the end of your statement it has grown to $10 with no explaination. You seem as sloppy with your own accounting as the people you are upset with.
All of this in no way excuses PayPal for not being as polite as possible to you no matter how they felt about the merits of your complaint.
posted on March 30, 2001 02:15:21 PM
When Paypal, Paydirect and a few others started their services, they wanted to prevent the possibility of charge backs. So they phrased their service as if it was a 2-step process:
1) customer funds account from credit card
2) customer uses funds to pay other sellers.
They believed that this would prevent charge backs because there was no direct charge from credit card to seller. But the credit card companies said that this would be tantamount to a cash advance because customer is now charging the credit card in order to put funds into an account. So in order to avoid cash advance fees, the services had to call these purchases. Once they are purchases, they are subject to charge backs.
The credit cards also insisted that some of the transactions should be considered cash advances. In order to satisfy them, Paypal added this choice to their list. It is now up to the customer to pick the choice. I believe there is a clear warning when the choice is made. The charge is NOT a paypal charge but a charge from your credit card company. I am no fan of some of Paypal's practices, but in this case you are getting angry at the wrong party.
And yes, before you make a choice you don't understand, you DO have to read about it. And if you don't have the time or can't find the answer, then don't make that choice.
posted on March 30, 2001 02:49:34 PM
Thanks ppDamon, it's much appreciated. Where do you want me to send you my email address?
gravid- the bank charged me a $5 transaction fee, and then for cash advances, they charge an interest rate that compounds and it figured daily... By the time I received my credit card statement, I'd already had a month's worth of daily interest compounded at a nominal 19.99% (standard for any credit card cash advance), which adds up to a 84% compound APR! You can do the math yourself. So please don't accuse me being sloppy with my accounting.
yisgood- I totally agree with you... Like I said, I'm totally fine with paypal needing to make a buck at the end of the day (or cover their ass, as the case may be), but the point is that I made an effort to read the terms of use before I made the payment, so I thought I had all the information that I needed to know. Yes, I was complicit in the error because I didn't click on the question mark icon, but that's not tantamount to making a choice I didn't understand.
posted on March 31, 2001 12:29:37 AM
refund from PayPal, now that is hard to believe.
we were a "redcarpet" user if that means anything to anyone or damon for that matter. we were in the first batch of people that were redcarpet users I heard it was the top 250 and another time the top 500 users, maybe it was everybody I don't know.
with the volume of business we did through PayPal we would have a few problems a week taking PayPal, most of the time do to the buyer sending too much money, not enough money like sending the bid amount and then sending the shipping in another transfer. double the fees you gotta love that. someone sends you a couple of hundred dollars you refund the monies call PayPal they say that they would credit the account and nothing. call the next time there is a problem bring up the last problem ok we'll take care of it.................nothing. One time I was told by an operator that they had just been given another block of money and they could start giving some more refunds, whatever that means, you took my money just give it back I don't your block of money.
all in all them not coming through on refunds was the straw that broke the camels back for me, it just got too hard to deal with them as a seller. I started looking at them again in the last month hoping that they had made some changes that would help the seller, nothing, no real change at all. All the changes they have made are changes to protect PayPal and the only thing that I can see that helps the user is now when you send money the email it sends to you has the memo info so you can track what it was for easier.
PayPal is like ebay, they got too big too fast and are too slow to make changes. ebay is just now starting to address some of the needs and wants. I guess it will be another 2-3 years before PayPal starts listening to their users.
that's ok we don't take PayPal and it hasn't hurt us a bit, surprising though the number of bidpays we get, and we do use paydirect.
