posted on March 30, 2001 12:50:57 PM new
I am starting this new string of messages to make the eBay and Internet Sales Community aware of how unprofessionally and shabbily I was treated by a supposedly "Prominent and Respectible" High Powered Law firm located in New York City.
A Brief History: I listed a Louis Vuitton Drawstring Purse on Ebay. I was aware of their trademark infringement policy, but honestly believed the article to be genuine. I listed it at a whopping price of $9.99 with no reserve, and indicated that I was not an
expert in these bags and was unwilling to guarantee authenticity.
To make a long story short, I received the attached communication from Vuitton's Attorneys. I responded to the attorneys and sent a copy to eBay, as I wanted to bring the matter out into the open. Ebay did shut down the auction, and I have no problem with that.
I understand their conservative approach.
My issue is about the unprofessional and harrassing manner in which the Vuitton Attorneys approached me. This was an item that I had purchased in a thrift shop and these attorneys treated me as if I was an armed felon, running an illegal counterfeit operation. Fortunately, as I have some legal background, I was not intimidated by their threats. My reason for posting this message is to advise honest small businesses and individual sellers not to be intimidated or threatened by these high priced thugs. They could have handled the matter much more professionally and discretely. The more the word gets out, the better. I am simply exposing the truth.
This is an unedited copy of the communication I received from them. Please judge for yourselves:
Date: Mar-29-2001
Dear Sir or Madam:
This firm is counsel to Louis Vuitton Malletier ("Vuitton", the owners
of the exclusive right to use the federally registered "LV", "LOUIS VUITTON" Epi
Leather and Pattern Design trademarks (hereinafter referred to as
the "Vuitton Trademarks".
It has recently come to our client's attention that you are offering for sale and
selling merchandise bearing one or more of the Vuitton Trademarks, or bearing marks
substantially indistinguishable thereto, through the eBay.com Web site, and that
this merchandise is counterfeit. Accordingly, we have been instructed to demand that you immediately cease any and all further distribution and sale of merchandise bearing marks substantially indistinguishable or identical to the Vuitton Trademarks, and as that you voluntarily provide us with the following:
1. all counterfeit Vuitton handbags, purses, luggage, wallets, key chains and any
other merchandise bearing any of the Vuitton Trademarks, or bearing marks substantially
indistinguishable thereto, presently in your possession or control;
2. a representation that any merchandise bearing marks substantially indistinguishable
or identical to the Vuitton Trademarks has been withdrawn from sale;
3. the identity of your supplier of the counterfeit Vuitton merchandise;
4. the number of counterfeit Vuitton handbags, purses, luggage, wallets, keychains and related merchandise you purchased, the amount you sold, and the price for which you purchased and sold these items; and,
5. a response, in writing, within 10 days of receipt of this letter covering
the aforementioned demands addressed to the undersigned at [email protected]
We strongly urge you not to contact the supplier of the counterfeit merchandise
or to take any other action which would interfere with our client's ability to
eliminate the counterfeit merchandise from the marketplace and will hold you
responsible for your complicity in any such actions to the maximum extent
provided by law.
Unless our office receives the requested information, we may commence an
action against you for trademark counterfeiting, trademark infringement
and unfair competition, seeking both preliminary and permanent injunctive
relief, and an award of treble damages for willful infringement, counsel
fees and costs.
We await an immediate response from you or your counsel.
posted on March 30, 2001 01:39:33 PM new
I would say this was a good start
Accordingly, we have been instructed to demand that you immediately cease any and all further distribution and sale of merchandise bearing marks substantially indistinguishable or identical to the Vuitton Trademarks, and as that you voluntarily provide us with the following:
1. all counterfeit Vuitton handbags, purses, luggage, wallets, key chains and any
other merchandise bearing any of the Vuitton Trademarks, or bearing marks substantially
indistinguishable thereto, presently in your possession or control;
Did you reply ASAP like they demanded and was that reply Bite Me!
posted on March 30, 2001 01:41:57 PM new
I don't think that letter is intimidating, these attorneys are looking out after their client's interests. You should provide them with the information they need to allow them to stop any copies from being produced.
If however you have an original then let them know about it.
I hold 500+ copyrights and see my things being sold on Ebay every week but I am able to recognize if they are real or forgery. Most are resales but I did find a forger several years ago and he is now out of business thanks to aggressive lawyers and with the help of people like yourself who sold one or two items thinking they were authentic.
If you are not selling copies you have nothing to worry about. If it is a copy and it is the only one you have then you still don't have a problem.
They need the information from you and it is best to cooperate and not feel it is directed at you personally. Just tell them where you purchased the item, show a receipt and you'll be done with it.
Their letter is in a generic form to get you to move on their request for information. If they didn't make it sound intimidating most people would file it in the trash.
Besides...... You can never expect an attorney to be "nice" That's the reason we all hate them....
posted on March 30, 2001 01:48:47 PM new
You received a canned legal response from a company that vigerously defends its copyright, patents and assets.
I recommend that you send them a polite and direct reply indicating that the item in question was the only one you had and was listed in the manner it was because you did not have the accompanying paperwork to guarantee product authenticity. Tell them that you are not a dealer, do not have any additional inventory and have no intentions of selling any other like product in the future. Explain that you were unaware that the listing of this product,whether genuine or counterfeit, was illegal and that you will immediately cease and desist.
Remember, they are not specifically targeting you. They're trying to crack down on the scumbag counterfeiters that are illegally using someone elses assets for their own self gain.
posted on March 30, 2001 01:56:39 PM new
[i]"I was aware of their trademark infringement policy, but honestly believed the article to be genuine. I listed it at a whopping price of $9.99 with no reserve, and indicated that I was not an
expert in these bags and was unwilling to guarantee authenticity."[/i]
I think you "lost the case" when you put your disclaimer in there.
Whenever, I see those words in an auction (right or wrongly), I automatically conclude that it isn't authentic and that the seller knows that and is trying to protect themselves from potential fraud accusations with that little "disclaimer".
posted on March 30, 2001 02:16:33 PM new
mrlatenite,
I'm wondering if it's legal to sell an illegal item at all, not matter how "legally" you obtained it.
If I buy a stolen car from an auction (not knowing it was stolen, of course) & the police find it, I don't get to keep it just because I "legally" purchased it.
posted on March 30, 2001 02:18:10 PM new
Well, I guess I'm losing votes in my bid for sympathy! That's OK. I'm happy to get feedback and a reality check. Sometimes we need that in order to keep a levelheaded perspective, and I appreciate hearing from all of you.
Yes, I did answer them back immediately and sent a copy of everything to eBay. I know that the language is canned and is meant to be intimidating. I understand that. Any why it has to be that way. However, if I were a little old lady or a person with no business background as to how the game is played, I'd be quaking in my boots. That is what I object to and that is my point for raising this forum.
I didn't say "Bite Me," but would have loved to say that. I was methodical in my reply and also requested that they supply me the appropriate information so I could make a determination as to whether is was authentic or fake. I believe it is the real thing. But, the only alternative I have now is to take it to a LV dealer and have them look at it.
I understand that pirates and counterfeiters are bottom feeders and understand the reason for the infringement laws. What I am very upset with is the "One Size fits all" tone of the message, the assumption that you are guilty, and the so-called "Demands." If these people were eBayers and I sent a copy of that message to eBay, I'm sure that eBay would contact them and instruct them to tone down their intimidating language.
That is my gripe. I suppose it is just part of doing business, but I do not like being pushed around.
Either Pro or Con, thank you all for your insights and comments.
posted on March 30, 2001 02:23:53 PM new
Obtained at a Thrift Shop in a Ritzy area on Long Island, NY. (Where folks could afford these items) It did not come from a hawker on Broadway. It is the first of these that I have ever seen.
Just wanted to add that the cute little happy faces on the Lawyer's message, were not from them, but from automatic software that creates smiley faces from parens, ect.
Keep your comments coming......either pro or con....I appreciate hearing from you all.
posted on March 30, 2001 02:38:23 PM new
ROTFLMAO ...I never even heard of 'em..he, he, trying to make you feel like you're Al Capone, huh?
All attorneys SOUND like that. Lotsa sellers comb Goodwill, buy stuff, photograph the labels and sell it on ebay. Have a friend that does it all the time. No problem, long as you watch how you title and list it.
Fences don't list stuff so millions of people (and the companies) can see it, for cripe's sake. Tell the no-brainer attorneys you picked it up at a thrift shop....end of story. Daughter is an attorney...says he he, not to worry. You perhaps made a mistake in wording, but you broke no laws. ALSO, if it does turn out to be legit, you bought it at a thrift shop, you are breaking no laws in selling it on ebay.
ALWAYS get - and keep - your receipt in cases like this. And then....
Laugh, don't panic
aramatha
edited to put that cute little blue bouncey guy in
posted on March 30, 2001 02:53:59 PM new
Dear John Macaluso,
The Louis Vuitton Drawstring Purse referenced in your letter was purchased from the Salvation Army Thrift store at 1234 Main Street in New York. The authenticity of the item is at this point unknown. If you would like to make arrangements for a Louis Vuitton representative to visit us here in New York to examine the item, we would be happy to accommodate them. At the time of examination, we will surrender the item to the representative if it is proven to be a fake. However, if the purse is verified as genuine by the Louis Vuitton representative we will need a signed letter from them stating it's authenticity and authorization to resell it.
posted on March 30, 2001 03:36:45 PM new
I had a similiar experience with a VERO company.
When I explained it was an estate sale purchase one time deal they responded by saying no need to return product just dispose of it.
This is a FORM letter sent to all, nothing personal.
Joe B
posted on March 30, 2001 03:44:32 PM new
OK, I am in the middle of a stupid Blizzard in Maine (again) and am snowbound. Do I have a life?
I want to thank all of you for listening and answering. I have taken all of this in a positive way.....and thank you.
To Aramathea: Thank you for understanding. Can you teach me to do the "Bouncing Guy" thing?
To Shibamarie: I loved your comment about
the "Police." When I sent
my response to the Vuitton
Attorneys, I did make a
sarcastic reference to the "Fashion Police."
To Mr. Jim: They would have to come up
to Maine to pry this bag
from my hot little hands.
Considering what they must
be billing their client for
a $ 9.99 infringement, they
would not do it now, but
could possibly wait until
July. (Lobster Season in
Maine)
I would like to add another point to my string, and would love to hear your comments. I don't want sympathy; I am a business woman.
I know this is one of the things you have to deal with. I just like to put it out there.
BUT: (think Ethics) Has anyone out there considered how much this firm is
billing their clients for this little
exercise in futility? This is also very
offensive to me.
posted on March 30, 2001 04:02:13 PM new
Dusty, to get the bouncy guy, just type [*bluebounce] (without the asterisk). For more cute smilies, there's a thread you might want to check out titled "Smilies." I'll send it back to the top of the list for you.
posted on March 30, 2001 04:26:42 PM new
Since you state
"but honestly believed the article to be genuine. ..., and indicated that I was not an expert in these bags and was unwilling to guarantee authenticity."
A little research on whether the bag is genuine may be in order. Many sellers of obviously counterfeit goods place exactly such disclaimers in their listings thinking it protects them, and the LV agents probably responded on that basis alone.
posted on March 30, 2001 04:38:07 PM new
Owning trademarks, tradenames, is a bit intimidating when protecting them. Have yours stolen, swiped, used, abused etc. and see why these letters need to be threatening. The true holders are protecting their property. Nothing wrong with that. If the TM laws were not so behind when the web came up, these issues would be commonplace and understood by the laymen. Selling your own property wasn't their concern just the origin of the item sees to be in question.
posted on March 30, 2001 05:12:12 PM new
If media companies had half the interest in resales on product they would be sending out slews of the same letter to all the video pirates.
I think it doesn't matter what the company is billing the client. They are doing what they are paid to do.
I guess this is the retail version of the drug war. They go after the little guy. I mean when I was in New York you would have to be blind not to trip over the guys selling this stuff.
Very interesting.
I'm going to answer a question you asked in another thread in here since you are probably monitoring this one more closely.
You can easily have more than 1 account on ebay. Many of us have several account, one for bidding, one for selling..one for each member of the family.
To get another account, you must have a separate email address for the account. Once you have that, you can even use the same credit card to register if you wish. You just open the account the same way you did your original ebay account...go to the "register" section.
You mentioned having one for your daughter. Just remember, she must be an adult. Juveniles are not allowed to have accounts on ebay.
posted on March 30, 2001 06:10:13 PM new
To Joice, Moderator (and Jim)
The reason I included the Attorney's name was because it was the only legal avenue left to me, in which I could register my protest.(Without hiring my own lawyer) I have said nothing that would open me (or AW)to a Slander Lawsuit, as I have kept my facts accurate. I just copied and pasted what they sent to me, unedited, in exactly the state in which I recieved it. Truth is Truth. This is real. (Besides that, I don't know how to delete Truth, once posted)
I believe that this is exactly what e-forums were intended for and really appreciate AW's forum to open real and current issues in this new emerging form of E-Business. This is a new and emerging body of law, and will have to go through the entire judicial process to achieve final resolution. I do not believe that AW should back down to any threats that they may recieve from the Attorneys involved. Do we not still have a Working Constitution here and Freedom of Speech?
In addition, I believe that if AW recieves any threats from the Attorneys, AW is obligated to post them in their entirety in this forum. This is NOT slander. Putting out factual information in a forum that invites participation and free speech does not violate any laws or individual or Corporate rights.
I have had all sorts of responses in this forum and I appreciate each and every one, whether I agree or not. Sometimes I hear things that I do not want to hear, but I appreciate the honesty and take another hard look at myself, and for that I thank you. This is what it is all about. I would love to invite the LV Attorneys to participate. I doubt that they would dare to participate.
posted on March 30, 2001 06:29:41 PM new
[b]I was aware of their trademark infringement policy, but honestly believed the article to be genuine. I listed it at a whopping price of $9.99 with no reserve, and indicated that I was not an
expert in these bags and was unwilling to guarantee authenticity. [/b]
Here's my take: If you do not know that an item is in fact genuine, then you should try your best to have it authenticated. It is illegal to sell counterfeit merchandise, even with a disclaimer that the item may not be genuine.
There are so many people selling counterfeit merchandise on eBay that it is sickening. And many of these sellers KNOW their merchandise is fake but want to play the "I can't be sure" game.
Now, Dusty, I am not referring to you specifically, but this is a very widespread problem on eBay. And for these companies, it is a pain in the butt because the internet widens the playing field for selling counterfeit merchandise.
But I do have a bias. Having been burned by buying counterfeit merchandise once, I have no sympathy for any seller of counterfeit merchandise (whether knowing or not) because it is not good to be on the other end of the transaction when you receive your merchandise and find out it is fake.
And I am 100% in support of these companies and their defense of their trademarks. The letter you received is general because many of the eBay sellers that are selling fake merchandise have steady suppliers and multiple selling IDs (and change them fairly often). So sometimes the "small fish" can lead you to the big one.
But seing that you are a caring, ethical seller, you have to do your part. If you don't know that something is genuine, and you can't or won't have it authenticated, don't sell it!
This is NOTHING compared with what the Music Business has to patrol. I doubt that that it will ever be enforced unless ASCAP and BMI have professional "Browsers" to montier this stuff.
Case in point: I know of someone who had a hit song stolen including the melody and most of the words. Will it ever be recovered? I doubt it. It would not be worth the retainer that the law firms impose.
I just want to make myself perfectly clear. If LV wants to pay the big reatiner fees for this Law Firm to Browse the Internet for Questionable items and then to intimidate the sellers, that is their decision. I just would like to advise the LV Execs that they are putting money into a dark hole.
I would love to see the bill that Vuitton will get because of me. I'm not paying it, because all I am relating is the truth.
Please Keep the Cards & letters coming. Even if I don't want to hear it,,,,I welcome a reality check. You folks have been great.
posted on March 30, 2001 09:38:23 PM new
Dusty
In case you didn't see the post, the way you make that cute blue bouncey guy is to type the word bluebounce, put brackets [ ] around it, before the b and after the e....no spaces and he comes up on the board.
So much talk on this and it is really pretty simple. You listed a purse bought at a thrift shop - got a form letter from the attorneys. If counterfeit, they have the right to confiscate it to try and trace the source from the thrift shop. Which should be an excercise in futility if the shop is anything like Goodwill. If authentic (and if you bought it near a classy area it probably is), then the purse is legally yours. You bought and paid for it, you are the owner. They cannot take it from you...only if counterfeit to try and trace it can they do so. So the outcome for you could very well be good as far as $$$'s.
Compared to what is going on at ebay that we DO NOT know about behind the scenes, and on a scale of 1 to 10, I doubt your situation could even get a rating of 999. I always did say, tho, if you want to feel like somebody took an eggbeater to your brain, ask a lot of people what they think, or for advice.
I wouldn't be surprised if the attorney said to a secretary "send the #1234 form letter out to this person".
When things are said - or done - to me and I am innocent (as you are), I always tell myself, "gheesh, I'm sure glad I'm not some celebrity that has to constantly walk past the rags and see myself splashed all over the d*** things with a bunch of lies. Brings things back into perspective for me.
Take care, go bungee jumping or sky diving (just kidding, but trying to make a point here) and it will all seem just a minor aggravation....which is all it really is.
This is interesting to me. Did you disclose in the auction where you purchased the item?
Try this: "this item was purchased from a charity thrift store in Long Island, NY and I am not an expert on authenticity".
This would provide a little background information on the item. They will probably still close the auction if it is counterfeit but they may not attempt to intimidate you like they did.
miracle118
It is illegal to sell counterfeit merchandise, even with a disclaimer that the item may not be genuine.
There is such a bad double standard here.
Charitable organizations such as Goodwill and Salvation Army can sell counterfeit merchandise without any disclaimers what so ever. Nobody seems to care. Are they exempt from these laws? Why should an Ebay seller have to take the time and expense to authenticate each and every item they sell?
posted on March 30, 2001 10:18:16 PM newCharitable organizations such as Goodwill and Salvation Army can sell counterfeit merchandise without any disclaimers what so ever.
I think you misunderstood my point. The disclaimer is irrelevant. It's still illegal to sell counterfeit merchandise. Some sellers think they are okay if they use a disclaimer.
[b]
Nobody seems to care. Are they exempt from these laws?
I don't buy it!
Buy what? There is nothing to buy. This is the law. If you don't believe me, read here:
Although I don't know why it's okay for Goodwill, etc. to sell this merchandise, I would suspect that it is because there is a huge difference between a non-profit that sells donations and someone buying something for the purpose of re-selling it.
And I would also guess that to some degree, Goodwill, etc. are allowed to sell this merchandise, because sometimes, when the feds seize large amounts of counterfeit merchandise, they donate it to charities, but supposedly they either remove the trademark infringing stuff (labels, etc.) or require the charity to remove them (which many do not).
Why should an Ebay seller have to take the time and expense to authenticate each and every item they sell?
If you are going to sell the kind of merchandise that is often "knocked-off", (and you are an ethical seller), then you should either take the time to authenticate it or only buy from reputable sources where you can be sure the merchandise is authentic. If you are willing to do neither, then what business do you have selling it?
posted on March 30, 2001 11:06:12 PM new
miracle118
Come on. "I don't buy it" is a figure of speach that means I strongly disagree.
Charitable organizations should uphold the same standards as everyone else. Especially "Christian" charities such as Salvation Army. If they are selling merchandise that is often "knocked-off", they should either authenticate it or not sell it. They also should be forced to refund a person's money if an item is counterfeit, just as an ebay seller would be.
They usually charge a high price for designer items, thus ripping off the unsupecting public, if it isn't authentic.
I don't sell items that are commonly counterfeited but this kind of thing irritates me. I hate double standards!
[ edited by outoftheblue on Mar 30, 2001 11:27 PM ]
posted on March 31, 2001 12:30:41 AM new
Greetings,
In my opinion, the legal language is typical of most cease and desist letters. It may sound intimidating to the average lay person because of the strong tone of the legalese. However, sometimes a dog's bark is bigger than the bite.
Perhaps your attorney would be more capable of advising you of your rights in this matter. Best of luck!
posted on March 31, 2001 02:19:58 AM new
After reading thru this thread, a terrible thought occured to me. What if ALL manufacturers decided to be like LV, Rolex, and all the other VERO's. All of us could not sell beanies, Fenton, autos, Elizabeth Arden etc:. eBay would be out of business. On the serious side, what or who is it that decides who are the precious few that are VEROS?? Are those purses better than all others? Is Rolex the only wonderful watch? Why them and not the others? Just wondering.
, the owners
...I never even heard of 'em..he, he, trying to make you feel like you're Al Capone, huh?
