posted on May 11, 2001 04:58:02 PM new
I wrote eBay yesterday, frankly, I was rather angry, and ranted, but you have to laught at the response, and it's a commentary on how stupid they think we are:
My letter:
"For years eBay has allowed sellers to have links to their website on
their auction pages. Good sellers didn't abuse this, and their websites
met the requirements given by eBay for links, mine included. These links
allowed prospective customers to learn more about us as sellers. Let
them know we were real businesses, and not just fly by night online
auction sellers. Now I see this new policy prohibiting links. Ebay has
been heaping one thing after another on sellers. First it was the
reserve auction fee. Then this idiotic watch feature, then increased
fees, then the hiding of e-mails. Sure there were abuses, but each of
these has punished your good sellers along with the bad. I wondered when
the straw that broke the camels back would come for me.
Well this is it. You have lost all faith, and trust I had in eBay. I'm
just about to the point of telling you what you can do with this policy.
Why is ebay so anti seller all of a sudden, it is sellers who have made
eBay what it was. Ebay has seen unbelievable growth and profitability.
Why the changes? Do you want to drive all sellers off eBay? Well this is
one seller who is on the verge. I'm going to think about it tonight when
I am a little less angry, and decide then.
I can assure you of one thing. I was just in the middle of getting about
50 auctions ready to list today. They won't be listed. I also will no
longer be recommending eBay to anyone. By tonight every single affiliate
link I have to eBay on my website will be gone. Fair is fair. You won't
allow my links, that's fine. I won't allow yours. While I may have
picked up a few customers from my link, I can assure you, eBay has
picked up many more customers from me, than I have from you. This will
no longer be the case. From this point forward, I will promote eBay to
no one.
Whoever came up with this new policy is accomplishing only two things.
Angering your good sellers, and driving them off eBay. The cheaters will
continue to do so. The only way you will catch them is to police the
site yourself. I won't do the policing for you, and I hope no other
users will as well.
As I am sure you can tell, I am very angry about this. I apologize for
taking this out on you, who is just a support person, but I hope you
will pass this one with the many other angry letters I am sure you will
receive, to the ruling Junta of eBay."
Ebay's response:
"Hello,
I appreciate you contacting me with this important information.
I am sorry to hear you're so unhappy with the upcoming site changes.
Occasionally circumstances arise to create situations when our community
members request a change. Although we work hard to minimize the
frequency of these events, sometimes the situation is beyond our
control.
When site issues do arise, we work to resolve the situation as quickly
as possible. This is very important to us, as we want our users to
enjoy full access to our site and all of the features available.
This information won't make these upcoming changes disappear, of course,
but I hope it will help to explain how hard we work to bring you the
best eBay possible.
Please bookmark the announcement board so you can always stay up to date
with our site changes."
Notice how they want us to believe that "Occasionally circumstances arise to create situations when our community
members request a change. ". That is an absolute crock. I can't believe they think eBay uses are that stupid.
posted on May 11, 2001 05:06:31 PM new
Drexel: since Ebay is for all intents and purposes down right now, I will post my comment here. I really think that Ebay doesn't believe we are that stupid, I think they pretend to think that, feigned ignorance. It is just more of the lies they tell us. Their own honest comes more and more into question for me. How can they expect more of their users, if they can't be honest themselves?? The policies are hard enough to swallow, the other makes me choke.
posted on May 11, 2001 05:15:35 PM new
Here are my solutions to the link policy. I have submitted a template of what I did to eBay for preapproval. Here it is:
http://www.hci.net/~drexelantiques/listing.html
What I have done is ad a Me page link. Addeded some to my Me page. Since I host my own pictures, am adding 3rd party credit link, "Hosting courtesy of www.drexelantiques.com" with the url clickable. I also built an auction gallery, and have a link to that. The only thing questionable is the hosting credit link, but if they are going to argue our eBay business is seperate from out other businesses, they can't have it both ways. drexelantiques on eBay is a different entity from www.drexelantiques.com. While I admit this is pushing the envelope, I think it is within policy. In fact I think I may get more hits this way than when I was running a graphical link to my site.
posted on May 11, 2001 05:24:11 PM new
Drexel, you echo my thoughts exactly. Well-stated letter and the response you received from eBay is pathetic and laughable.
I think part of the problem is, eBay does not employ sellers or collectibles experts on their staff, so they do not TRULY understand the buying/selling experience. All they see is the short-term picture, i.e., someone clicks on a website link, that user is being diverted from eBay.
But you and I both know that the picture is much larger than that.
When eBay first introduced their ridiculous and ill-conceived Reserve Fees nearly two years ago, many sellers who used eBay heavily decided to modify their business plan. I was one of those sellers. I had been using eBay EXCLUSIVELY up to that point, but then decided that having all my eggs in one basket was no longer going to work in light of those added dollars, which really do add up. I didn't want to compromise by either under-selling my good merchandise or selling not-so-great items, so I decided to put some of those "only a dollars" into a website. Boy did that turn out to be a good move! I realize far greater prices for my good stuff than I usually can on eBay at a fraction of the cost . . . . . I tapped into a different clientele (some who had limited time or interest in cruising eBay), etc. And as you say, some of those clients became faithful auction watchers. That's the part eBay can't appreciate.
But I'll bet eBay started to realize that many eBay sellers were "weaning themselves" away from eBay and toward their own websites, so now eBay is trying to shut the barn door after the horses have already bolted. Yeah, right. . . as IF I would even consider using their probably overpriced storefronts. NOT!!!!
You are absolutely right that website clients often turn into faithful auction clients. I've seen the same thing happen. And if someone shopping eBay ends up being diverted to a website, does eBay honestly think that buyer would have otherwise remained on eBay? Maybe not, maybe that person would have signed off, headed off to their local mall or turned on the home shopping channels.
eBay used to be proud of the fact that they provided a means for many "mom and pop" sellers to make a living. Now they seem impervious to the fact that their seller-unfriendly policies continue to alienate many of us AWAY from eBay, rather than doing MORE with eBay. They force us to find alternatives, and then when we do, they try to grab us back again.
Doesn't work that way. It's like that analogy about grabbing a fistful of sand -- the tighter you grab, the more sand trickles through your fingers. As eBay continually tries to find and plug all the leaks in the dike, more leaks spring up. Sellers are going to keep trying to find ways around these stupid policies, and eBay will continue to make even more rules.
Sorry for the long diatribe.
[ edited by Lisa_B on May 11, 2001 05:26 PM ]
posted on May 11, 2001 06:21:55 PM new
Lisa_B posted: "All they see is the short-term picture, i.e., someone clicks on a website link, that user is being diverted from eBay."
When sellers complained about the banner ads diverting business away, ebaY made light of it. Now that the shoe is seemingly on the other foot (in ebaY's eyes anyway) they don't like it.
posted on May 11, 2001 06:35:24 PM new
This may be fruitless, but here goes...
I do have a clickable link to my website on all of my auction listings, but I also have a clickable link on every page of my website to bring up my listed auctions on ebay.
Anyone here think that this would not meet the new policy? I give more than a fair chance that bidders will be directed back to ebay. I think it's a fair trade.
posted on May 11, 2001 06:40:54 PM new
eBay is absolutely the queen/king of double standards, double-talk and double just about anything else a person can think of.
Seriously, they have links everywhere in the books, videos, music, etc. categories to visit Half.com. They stated in their new policy that the intent of the listing page is to tell viewers about the listing--not to draw people off-site. Well, excuse me!
Of course, though, Half.com is owned by eBay so for them to link there is all right. Well, I pay for advertising space on eBay, so by rights it should be fair to link to my website (which, by the way I don't even sell anything on my site!)
eBay claims over and over again they're only a 'venue'. I think the best comparison I can make is to a newspaper classified ad. Now, of course if the newspaper made commission on the sales something might change here, too, who knows. You pick up a classified ad and you see an item you're interested in purchasing. Well, the person who answers the phone happens to be the proprietor of the neighborhood second-hand shop. You go check the item you're interested in, decide for or against it, and look around the rest of his shop. You may or may not decide to purchase anything else, but if you did the shop owner has made a great deal by placing the ad and you've made a great deal (hopefully) by visiting the shop.
Yep, I'm frustrated, irritated and just about everything else. eBay used to be such a cool place, but honestly I don't need that many 'rules' to run a my little business (more of a hobby, really) the way it should be run.
posted on May 11, 2001 06:59:15 PM new
Ah, but Toollady, eBay gets paid for those Banner Ads. We will once again allow us to have links to our websites as soon as they think they can charge us for it!
I just wonder why eBay really thinks their rhetoric is believed at all.
posted on May 11, 2001 07:00:26 PM new
Drexel -- most excellent letter, echoing my own sentiments very nicely. And GREAT ideas you shared too. Thanks.
As for me, I'm thinking more and more that I'll be abandoning ebay even as they have been abandoning us. I can't stand the arrogance, and I can't support that kind of arrogance either. That's why I left PayPal a long time ago and will NOT go back.
posted on May 11, 2001 07:41:54 PM new
dman- Do you mean you put your web page address on the photo. Do you think ebay will like that? What would happen if you would put your TOS in the about ME page, then the buyers would have to go there to read it and you could have your web page address there? I think they said you could have it in the About Me Page if I read it correctly.
I do not know how much how this new policy will apply to myself and my wife, but as we not only sell (ie: mom and pop for sure!!) but buy, I feel that this statement will apply.
To see so many really good sellers leaving ebay is truely disheartening. I understand that ebay is in it to make a profit, but they also have to allow we, as little sellers, to turn a profit as well. I list maybe 20-40 auctions a week, including relists, and am just now really learning about computers. I have a storefront with AW, just to see how it works (you all may visit any time you want ), but I do not see any results yet. I have been tinkering with the idea of an on-line shop, but where will the most exposure for someone like me come from? Ebay, of course. Yet, if I read everything correctly, this will no longer be an option for people like myself, never mind the true dealers like you, drexel (btw, I have visited your site. Have not bought anything, YET!! ). We are truely the backbone of thier operation, and yet they are trying to alienate us like some cancer, slowly removing us bit by bit until thier will be nothing left, or until we have become the little ebay solders that they want us to be. Now, about the fees. I can sum them up in one word: OUTRAGEOUS!!! As I stated earlier, my wife and I are a mom/pop set-up, but we do put up nice things from time to time. The debate is usually how much in fees we want to pay. I have 35 live auctions right now, 1 ended in a BIN, and 2 others have bids. With the fees charged for the listings, I am now even. So, if I sell no more, I made nothing for my time. But, if I sell more, they will make more, and I will make less. Last year, my profits less fees were 72%. As of right now, with thier new fees, it stands at 59%. Yet, I have sold more items this year then last year at this time.
I guess I can sum up my little rant like this: I agree with you, drexel, and I look foreward to what you, and the many other posters here whose opinions I respect, have to add to this new ebay disaster.
Rick
In the begining, God created the heavens and the earth.
posted on May 11, 2001 09:18:59 PM new
I see lots of sellers threatening to leave ebay.
But I don't see any ebay competition on the rise.
I see local store after local store which used to sell used stuff close up. Antique stores. Camera stores. Their supply of cheap used stuff has dried up, and they can get good prices selling out on ebay. Stuff they've had sitting around for years is being turned into cash.
Ebay is raising the price, but it's not at all clear that they're raising it beyond what the market will bear.
As to their response to negative reaction to a raising of the price, what would we expect? Sure enough, an idiot at the other end, but not a malicious idiot. That's life these days, and not just at eBay. I can tell the exact same stories about Charles Schwab.
posted on May 11, 2001 09:48:49 PM new
True Roofguy, there are no competitive AUCTION SITES right now . . . but that doesn't mean eBay doesn't get competition in other ways.
Since I established my website, it has exceeded even my own expectations. I am constantly surprised at the stream of clients who are PLEASED to spend more for my items than I could generally realize on eBay -- but then I figured out that some people actually have lives, ha ha -- they either don't have the time or inclination to cruise eBay for the good buys, or they have been burned by shoddy sellers on eBay and prefer to shop where they can count on quality and service. So there are thousands of dollars in sales that eBay hasn't gotten a piece of at all.
Now they are realizing that websites or web "malls" are rising in popularity, they are panicking. As I said earlier, closing the barn door after the horses have bolted. It's stupid, they do things that drive sellers to alternatives, then they respond with even more punitive policies.
As a seller I do not plan to leave eBay -- heck, it's still fun for me in some ways -- but I have become more circumspect in WHAT I list and HOW I list it.
Do you mind telling us how you ADVERTISE your website, or how prospective buyers FIND it?
Do your customers come by way of your eBay sales? Are you part of a "mall" like TIAS or Ruby Lane, or a "web ring" of similar webstores? Do you pay a service to submit your website/keywords to the search engines, or do you do it yourself (or not at all)?
The truth is, many of us are the former B&M store owners that roofguy was talking about---whose store sales took a nosedive as eBay became THE competition, and whose sources of used goods dried up as everybody and his dog bought a digital camera in order to sell on eBay. It's now a struggle just to get our **considerable** investments back out of our inventories.
"Being Found" by buyers is the major reason most of us are selling on eBay and other auctions instead of on our own websites. In fact, that "exposure" is what we're PAYING eBay for....though that exposure becomes less and less valuable as the Auction grows larger, the categories become more watered down, the search engine becomes increasingly faulty and slow to index, the site continues to glitch & crash, and the bid prices realized become lower and lower and lower (and lower still).
I'm one of those who left eBay with the advent of "it's only a dollar" reserve fees, and I can tell you that Yahoo Auction was becoming serious competition for eBay until the YaFools drove their Auction to ruin this year. Had they opted for FVFs or monthly fees instead of their current listing fees (as we REPEATEDLY implored them to do), Yahoo Auction would be alive and well right now, and eBay would STILL be charging 25 cents to list a 9.99 item.
posted on May 12, 2001 03:32:01 AM new
I know a lot of sellers have left ebay. I happened to be looking at this last night. I had 39 seller's bookmarked in my browser. These were folks that I either had bought from, or ones that I kept an eye on because they would often sell stuff I was interested in. I had to delete 37 of those bookmarks because the sellers had not been selling anything. Most hadn't had feedback in months and quite a few were not even registered anymore. Certainly, there could be a number of reasons for this, but these sellers covered a wide variety of items and now most of them are gone. I don't know where they have gone, if anywhere, but they aren't on eBay.
posted on May 12, 2001 07:42:41 AM new
Ebay has now said I may not use my website urls in my copyright notices, even though my website url is the name of my business, is trademarked, and is registered with the State of North Carolina. Despite the fact the items and photographs are the property of my company:
Thanks for writing in to eBay with your question. You are only allowed
to use your name or user id on the photo. Any possible links to a web
address are not allowed.
Good luck!
Regards,"
I'm still waiting to hear on my template, but I will be willing to bet they will not allow me to consier my website as a third party host.
Frankly, I do not see how eBay can justify not allowing me to use a copyright notice.
posted on May 12, 2001 08:11:33 AM new
It appears to me that Ebay has reached the point where their status as a "venue only" can now be legally challenged.I believe they have crossed the line. It would take either a class action suit or someone with a lot more money than me to challenge this legally...however,it is also possible that a Federal Agency might now be taking a peek at this themselves based on complaints I am SURE they have received. A company cannot make this many controlling rules and maintain they are just a venue.
They are censoring auctions, controlling who we may communicate with and how, controlling HOW we do business and with whom, etc etc....certainly not things an "only a venue" type of company would do.
I truly wish one of the other auction sites would get their act together so we could have an alternative. The trick is to get the buyers to the other sites en masse as ebay has done.
There are a lot of resources on the web to help website owners improve their visibility in the search engines. I have never paid to get better visibility, but I have paid attention to using good meta-tags and keeping my site updated and fresh. I belong to a couple online e-mail discussion groups for other dealers and collectors in my specialty (vintage jewelry) so that has helped get some visibility. I don't belong to a Web-Ring but I do participate in reciprocal links. I do not belong to any malls although colleagues who do have reported good results.
When I first started my website, most of my visitors came from eBay. I have links on both my auction pages and About Me page and hits between those sources are about 50-50. Over time, my visibility in search engines has vastly improved, plus I've cultivated MANY repeat customers, so eBay now funnels only about 50% of my visitors. I keep track of this with a Global Tracker -- if you go to my site at
http://www.jazbot.com/Jazz
and click on the Globe icon toward the bottom, you can get this same tracker for free. It's very useful to keep an eye on those statistics.
I suppose if I had more aggressively advertised my site that might have reaped even greater rewards, but up to now I've been content with what I'd been doing. As an aside, I do most of my own web maintenance which does save money -- it's not difficult to learn how to do that. I include my website information on my End of Auction notices, as well as the eBud invoices I enclose with each shipment. I know some dealers also include business cards, or even have those cards made into refrigerator magnets.
Up to now, I've considered the $200 - $300 monthly I spend in eBay fees as my main "advertising dollars" for my site. I have been able to justify listing nicer items that may or may not reach reserve, because of the site traffic it's generated. Now with the policy prohibitions, I plan to use my auction pages to more directly invite viewers to visit my About Me page, and I will keep an eye on how my website traffic is affected. If it's significant, then I will have to really rethink that $$ I spend on Ebay and will have to modify what I do list there. Reserve fees really add up, and unfortunately the vintage jewelry categories are so glutted with items (much of it junk or Brand-New stuff) that shoppers may or may not be able to find the good stuff. I am not going to throw good money after bad. And I question whether I will have any use for eBay's new storefronts, which I'm certain will not be able to compete financially with my own web host, where I pay $38 every QUARTER and have plenty of space.
I wish that eBay would try to find ways to ENCOURAGE what they want to see happen, rather than waste time with policies PROHIBITING what they don't want to see happen. Instead of prohibiting web links, they should have done way more reseearch to find out exactly who the buyers are who click through to websites. What are these buyers looking for? Why did they go offsite? Do they stay offsite? Or do they maybe become even more loyal to shopping those sellers' auctions? Are they enticed to bid higher than they might otherwise, with the added confidence that a seller with a website may be more professional and more knowledgeable? Maybe if eBay understood those things, they could find ways to support and nurture their mom-and-pop sellers, rather than take these short-sighted stances.
I have a friend who buys Elegant Glass on eBay. I know little about this area, but apparently it's quite risky because so many sellers don't know how to describe what they have and are not that knowledgeable about how to inspect/describe flaws. My friend says that when an Elegant Glass seller has a website or seems to be an expert in this area, she has much more confidence in those items. These are the kinds of variables that the Ebay Poo-Bahs seem oblivious too.
posted on May 12, 2001 10:21:18 AM new
Any retail business which considers $300 per month for advertising to be significant will never prosper. It might limp along as a hobby for as long as one might like, and might even be profitable, but it will never become an important business.
This is the single most common mental block preventing a potential larger business from becoming so. The business owner mistakenly believes that the world will find them, somehow. Sure, you have to identify a profitable product line, and that's not easy. However, if one has passed that major hurdle but is refusing to invest in advertising, one is allowing a beautiful business to wither on the vine.
posted on May 12, 2001 10:32:55 AM new
Roofguy, excuse me? I'm not sure I understand your point.
$300 a month for me is significant but I have as much as I can handle right now -- I am not "limping along," I am prospering and my business is sufficient for my needs right now.
posted on May 12, 2001 10:34:00 AM new
roofguy, it has to be the right kind of advertising. I watch business after business waste money on non targeted, or improperly targeted advertising. Between my shop, website, mail list, and antique malls, I probably spend $900-$1100 a month, when taken as a year, I concentrate that around fall and Christmas. I am offered advertising opportunities every week. Frankly, if I took "advanatage" of every offer I am made, I would quickly go broke. I advertise both to sell, and to buy. Frankly, there is not much advertising you can do on the web that is worthwhile. The majority of effective internet advertising is just out of my budget range. I have taken the time to find some free, or low cost internet advertising that is cost effective and works.
posted on May 12, 2001 10:48:18 AM new
Drexel -- Just a few observations here.
Regarding your first post with your letter and response from eBay -- eBay's CS or support folks sent you what looks like a canned 'blurb'. Their response didn't appear to address your concern at all! The conclusion I drew is that they really don't give a hoot about changes to policies they make as sellers are affected.
Regarding your copyright on your photo - eBay's response is pathetic. If your photos are the property of your business, and your business happens to be licensed to do business as www.whatever,com, then they are in the wrong. If your business happened to be called Whatever, Inc., eBay's response would be completely different. The fact that your business is licensed as your website name made eBay assume in their response that you were attempting to circumvent the new policy, when, in fact, you are simply trying to protect your business from theft. Plain and simple. If you are placing the name of your registered, licensed business as a NON-CLICKABLE link embedded in each photo, you have the right to do so to protect your businesses' interests.
Additionally, their response to your question about the business name on photos ONCE AGAIN appears to be a 'blurb' response.
Geez. You'd think someone, anyone at eBay CS or support would use a wee bit of common sense to send a rational response to legitimate questions. Maybe the eBay staff manning the email queues are forced to reply with 'blurbs' instead of rational thought. Seems that way to me at least.
Can anyone at eBay support/CS read and respond with a HUMANLY reply? I'd be interested in seeing if anyone has had any degree of success in receiving non-canned blurbs from them ...
posted on May 12, 2001 10:51:05 AM new
I think every eBay seller should make a website, and change their user ID to their web address. Its going to get alot worse guys with ebay drawing mass-merchants on their site. They have made it clear they dont make money on antiques and collectables. Better start now before its too late!
posted on May 12, 2001 11:28:53 AM new
RB, I think a lot of buyers and sellers HAVE left eBay, or at least diverted a great deal of business AWAY From eBay. That is precisely what eBay is reacting to I think, with these new prohibitions attempting to plug all these leaks in the dike.
With the Reserve Fee implementation, I created a website and most of my good stuff goes on there now. Many of my website customers simply can no longer shop effectively given ebay's glutted listings in my category.
When they implemented their rules prohibiting Offline Trades -- something many of us had been doing casually for years as part of a Good Customer Service Relations -- and in the interest of cultivating new/repeat business -- I find that now even MORE prospective buyers use eBay's "Ask The Seller A Question" form to attempt to form a trade on items of mine that didn't meet reserve or get bids. Interesting.
But . . . eBay cannot measure what isn't happening on their site. They cannot measure how much business has been DIVERTED from them. Maybe there HAS been a change in the collectibles market, but as long as there are the Disneys and Wal-Marts eager to tap into the eBay market, eBay really has no incentive to keep its mom-and-pop sellers happy and listing.
posted on May 12, 2001 04:54:26 PM new
I have been at ebay for the past 3 years/ In the first two years that I was there I spent about $1500 a month in listings and comissions. That was before all the 25 cent bell and whistles, plus the $1 reserve fee (It's ONLY a dollar, $hit yes, but it WAS my DOLLAR).
In the last year I have spent perhaps $100 in fees at ebay. Sorry ebay but I am sick of your GREED and your ability to waffle about the *rules*.
IF I list again the gloves are OFF.
) but buy, I feel that this statement will apply.
