ultimato
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posted on May 17, 2001 12:09:28 PM
I understand the need for a program like VeRO on Ebay, but giving the member companies blanket permission to pull anything they feel like is going to be the death of Ebay. For instance, today I had one pulled. The notice said:
>We regret to inform you that your auction:
1xxxxxxxxx Led Zeppelin LP from Russia
has been ended at the request of Atlantic Recording Corporation, a member
of eBay's Verified Rights Owner (VeRO) Program, because
they filed a sworn statement that it offers a product or contains
material which violates their copyright, trademark or other
rights. In the interest of protecting all eBay users, we end
such auctions to avoid any association with potentially
infringing or unlawful items. <<
I x'd out the auction number but everything else is from the email. I fail to understand how a 20-year old vinyl record from Russia violates their copyright. Seems to me like this is a legitimate collectible. I've gotten about 4 or 5 like this in the past couple of months and it's getting silly. Sellers need to be given a better system to fight these random auction yankings. Why should we be at the mercy of these corporations that use no discretion and don't know a legit collectible from a hole in the wall?
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breinhold
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posted on May 17, 2001 12:12:00 PM
im shocked! an old record?? its not like you bootlegged it. jeesh what can you sell?
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breinhold
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posted on May 17, 2001 12:19:28 PM
Record -label missing, black tape over faces of group. name scratched off the cover - spine blacked out with magic marker. No numbers or maker-i listened to it and the man with high voice keeps saying gotta whole lotta love-gotta whole lotta love. (would this be legal to list?)
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dottie
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posted on May 17, 2001 12:25:30 PM
Just think what would happen if DISNEY decided to flex their VeRO muscle on eBay!!!
- Dottie 
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ultimato
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posted on May 17, 2001 12:26:31 PM
>jeesh what can you sell?<
That's kinda what I'd like to know. I'm not so sure anymore.
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camachinist
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posted on May 17, 2001 12:29:02 PM
ultimato
Are they singing in Russian or English?
Is it possible that the LP is an old bootleg pressing from Russia?.....seems like they're pretty good at that kind of stuff...
Regardless, I still agree that those VERO folks are wound up a bit tight...
Maybe try a relist with some of the band members names as keywords instead of the group name.....
Good luck!
Pat
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morgantown
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posted on May 17, 2001 12:30:00 PM
Must have been a bootleg copy?
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ultimato
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posted on May 17, 2001 12:35:41 PM
Nope, it's a legitimate release on the Russian Melodiya label. I used to trade records with a guy in Poland who sent me LPs from all of the eastern bloc countries. Have sold several others with no problem.
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eventer
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posted on May 17, 2001 12:40:14 PM
Can't you appeal VeRO?
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camachinist
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posted on May 17, 2001 12:42:50 PM
As eventer queried....affirmative...
Assert your rights to sell and force the copyright holder to take legal action....
The procedure has been documented here before.... and is often successful...
Pat
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dottie
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posted on May 17, 2001 12:43:34 PM
eventer: Technically, yes... but do any of us know anyone who has appealed (to the VeRO) and actually WON?
Who has time for THAT, - every other listing??
- Dottie
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dottie
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posted on May 17, 2001 12:44:39 PM
camachinist: Are they successful? or do they "win by default" because the VeRO doesn't follow through?
- Dottie
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ultimato
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posted on May 17, 2001 12:47:12 PM
eventer, I've had this happen a few times before and have questioned the VeRO members. They've only replied to me once, and that was to say they made a mistake and I could relist the item. That person actually admitted to me that they routinely pull anything that "looks" suspicious. But in most cases they just assert their power with no regard for the sellers and whether OUR rights are being violated. I think eBay needs to consider an innocent till proven guilty approach that makes the VeRO member prove an item is what they say it is before they can just yank it. Fat chance of that happening.
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camachinist
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posted on May 17, 2001 12:47:23 PM
The success stories I've read here have been realized through non-action of the VERO copyright/trademark/patent owner...
Kind of like someone threatening legal action....taking it is a big step that most consider very carefully......
Pat
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soldat2
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posted on May 17, 2001 01:08:25 PM
We also had an auction ended recently for "possible" copyright infringment!
Possible.
So with VeRO you are guilty until proven otherwise, from the looks of it.
The funny thing is that we had several other auctions containing the same items listed at the same time, yet none of those were "possibly" suspended.
I relist all of the others as they sell, so far no more VeRO notices.
Now, if it was a "Cease & Decist" order....
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mrlatenite
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posted on May 17, 2001 01:14:48 PM
Yet the funny thing is, there is a guy who is CONSTANTLY listing:
1) Photocopies of game manuals
2) VCR copies of cartoon collections
3) Audio dubs of something else.
I have turned him in THREE TIMES. The first time he stated "copy is a photocopy of the original". eBay ended it. The second and third time he got smarter and stated "Copy of original" in his text. eBay claims this does NOT imply it is an infringing work since it *could* mean "original copy". WTF???
So he is allowed to sell tons of tons of bad photocopies and tape dubs. He already has 5 PO'd customers. Plus he is causing confusion in the categories against people selling the LEGITIMATE thing (no, I'm not a competetor..I in fact am wanting to get some of these things, but the originals, but am smart enough to read all of the description and check closed auctions to see a pattern)
Why won't eBay do anything about these yahoo's, yet constantly go against the legitimate ones (yes, I know I'm not the Vero owner, but still...when it's blatent!)
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skip555
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posted on May 17, 2001 01:19:00 PM
expect more of it....with vero you are given no chance to respond before BAM!!!
Your action is gone your bidders are informed that the auction has been suspended more than likley they can go bid on the same item someone else has listed as vero seems to be hit and miss.
my item was suspended there was a idnetical item listed at the same time that did well as my bidders now started bidding on it
I have written ebay twice asking how to report abuse of the vero program and have gotten no response
and yes you can file paperwork and get your item back on but it tis time consuming.
keep in mind anyone can register with vero not just big corporations.
my auction was ended by somone who made a product that was not evan remotley similar to the used item I had for sale.
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lowprofile
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posted on May 17, 2001 01:24:49 PM
I fought the VERO and won.
I filed a counter notice against a VERO and won. They had 14 days to file claim against me in Court and I knew they would not as they were wrong.
I recieved an email from Ebay allowing me to relist.
I relisted and then the VERO sent me registered mail saying if I did not end my auctions they would sue me...I told them that I would sue them if they did not stop harrassing me and that under the Digital Millenium act I would be entilted to all my court costs if they were proven wrong...I knew they were and so I had nothing to worry about...they laid off and I have not been bothered since....
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reamond
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posted on May 17, 2001 01:31:06 PM
The form to challenge VERO is simple, and there is no actual "losing" in filing the form.
If you file the "counter notice", the VERO member has 10 days to respond in a federal court in YOUR jurisdiction. If the VERO member fails to take court action in 10 days, you get to re-list.
If the item is legitimate for re-sale, there is not much else the VERO member can do. If Capitol records or anyone else wants to go around the country going to court for a single sale of an item that may very well be legitimate, they won't be in business long.
What most of these VERO member are doing is just removing anything that even "could" be infringing, or they are competitors using the system to restrain trade and competition, and until you folks start filing counter notices the VERO members will keep abusing the system.
However, if the item is infringing, you don't have a leg to stand on. Even if eBay allows you to re-list, you can still be liable to the intellectual property owner.
[ edited by reamond on May 17, 2001 01:35 PM ]
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loosecannon
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posted on May 17, 2001 01:38:59 PM
I had a record auction pulled last week too. But I thought "screw it", I'm not going to go 'round and 'round with anyone on it.
It was a Promotional record from a legit record label, but about 20 years old.
Oh, so I'm looking at similar things the next week and what do I see? More promotional record auctions--not canceled.
I'm a Zeppelin fan. Your record sounds interesting.
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eastwest
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posted on May 17, 2001 03:23:04 PM
i was on ebay and saw an auction from selling microsoft programs office 2000.
the tos said it was and upgrade version.
So i thought i would right ebay and ask
I thought you were not alound to sell micorsoft cd because they are not owned by us
this is the email i got back from ebay
Hello,
We would also like to explain eBay's policy with respect to reports like
yours. eBay is not in a position to make judgments about the
authenticity or authorized nature of auction items, except in the most
extreme circumstances. This may mean that we cannot remove the item
about which you contacted us.
In some cases, we refer the information to the owner of the rights
(copyright, trademark, etc.) involved, if we know who they are and how
to contact them. Although you may be extremely knowledgeable about
these types of items, we often cannot remove items upon the
representations of third parties whose credentials we cannot verify,
unless of course the alleged infringement is obvious on its face.
That is why we strongly urge you to notify the rights holder of the
suspected infringement and encourage them to join our Verified Rights
Owners (VeRO) Program. This program enables them to request the ending
of allegedly infringing auctions.
We appreciate your vigilance in helping us to keep inappropriate
auctions off eBay.
I have referred the listings to be reviewed with the Legal Content
Holder.
The auctions of this seller reported are currently being reviewed.
Although we may not be able to keep you abreast of our actions, we
pledge to thoroughly investigate the information you have provided. We
appreciate your concern in helping to keep eBay a safe and reputable
forum in which to conduct business.
Each auction is evaluated on its own merits and the appropriate action
is taken. If you believe an item is potentially infringing that was not
removed by eBay, we encourage you to contact the copyright owner and
inform them of the alleged infringement. Through our Verified Rights
Owner (VeRO) program, rights owners can request the ending of auctions
they feel infringe upon their rights.
eBay does not and cannot verify that sellers have the right or ability
to sell or distribute their listed items. However, we are committed to
removing infringing or unlicensed items once an authorized
representative of the rights owner properly reports them to us. eBay's
Verified Rights Owner (VeRO) Program works to ensure that items listed
for auction do not infringe upon the copyright, trademark or other
intellectual property rights of third parties. VeRO Program
participants may identify and request removal of allegedly infringing
auction listings.
STUPID AH..CLOSE YOUR AUCTION ON RECORDS AND LEAVE THIS ONE GOING
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capotasto
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posted on May 17, 2001 03:34:07 PM
eastwest; Sorry, I must disagree with you... it is not ebay's place to determine copyright violations of listed items.
The VERO program isn't perfect, but don't blame ebay they didn't create it. Blame the authors of the DMCA (our gov't).
For now, reamond has the answer: challenge every invalid VERO claim.
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ultimato
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posted on May 17, 2001 04:21:41 PM
Thanks everyone for your comments. I agree that it's frustrating to have something pulled and then see the same thing being sold by half a dozen other dealers. I had one item pulled and then watched as someone else sold it for about $200.00 (w/ starting bid of $9.99). I've also seen some dealers get around VeRO by using tricks like selling some other innocuous worthless item and then include the "real" item for "free" to the winner. You know, if you buy this piece of blank paper, I'll throw in this new promo copy of a CD. I don't know if that works in throwing VeRO off the scent, but I really don't like to resort to that sort of tactic. But I do think this whole program is stacked against the seller and Ebay isn't willing to lift a finger against the VeRO members to make it right.
Does anyone have the URL for the VeRO response form?
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camachinist
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posted on May 17, 2001 05:04:36 PM
Try looking here
I recall an e-mail contact address info being near the bottom of the page...
The user and VERO member have to duel it out on their own..*G*
Pat
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ultimato
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posted on May 17, 2001 05:34:52 PM
Thanks, camachinist, for the link. In this case, since the item was already in relist and only had one bid, it's not really worth my while to pursue it. But it's good to know for future reference.
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ultimato
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posted on May 17, 2001 05:35:40 PM
deleted duplicate post
[ edited by ultimato on May 17, 2001 05:36 PM ]
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