posted on May 21, 2001 11:37:24 PM
This four page article is right here on AW. Please read all four pages to see the mind set of the corporate giants that plan to take over eBay.
According to quotes from some of the executives interviewed, they intend to use links directly to their web sites to draw in new customers and increase their customer base.
If the "big dogs" are allowed to do this and the mom & pops are not, this could create a backlash, the size of which eBay has never seen.
This past week we witnessed an example of eBay's double standard concerning their vero program and fake Oakley sunglasses auctioned by the USPS. How many sellers have we seen come here to complain of their auctions being closed by eBay and upon relisting, they were suspended? However, in the USPS case, they were closed, relisted, closed, and relisted. The USPS was not suspended even in the face of complaints being sent to eBay.
Now, eBay states that they will start enforcing the new no link rule on May 31, and wants users to be net cops and turn in offenders to Safe Harbor. What good will it do to turn in the corporate sellers if they are immune to sanctions, as was the USPS in the situation descriibed above?
When this all shakes out, we may know once and for all what value, if any, eBay places on us small sellers that stuck with them through all the perils when they were AuctionWeb. If we had not toughed it out with them, they would not exist as they are today.
Management on top, mom & pop sellers on the bottom.
posted on May 22, 2001 05:45:18 AM
I'm preparing for the flames that will come my way but, frankly, this is the way of big business.
Big corporations get perks, that's just a fact of life & I don't really see ebay doing things any differently.
Big corporations get lower prices on shipping. If you think you are getting the same shipping rate from UPS as Amazon, think again.
Sorry, but that's the nature of business. If you are faced w/Mom & Pop who are going to buy 2 of your items or Big Dog Corp who is going to buy 1,000 of your items but only if they get a discount..are YOU going to tell Big Dog, "No..no thanks..you'll have to pay the same price as Mom & Pop?"
Big Corporations are always going to get better pricing & more favorable terms than the average person.
posted on May 22, 2001 07:04:21 AM
eBay has made it clear they dont make money on collectables and antiques thus they need a new source a revenue. Yes there will be many double standards for big vs. small sellers, and expect more to come in the future. I am sure there is a flat listing fee for them as well. The biggest thing in my opinion that helps the bigboys is brand name. People feel more secure buying from the postal service than a small seller.
posted on May 22, 2001 07:30:08 AM
Ebay is touting that they are *generously* allowing us to have links on our About Me page.
I predict that will be temporary. I predict a new policy will go into affect that will disallow us from mentioning our webpages -- ever.
I mean EVER.
Since Ebay states they have eternal rights to fees for every item we've ever listed and every buyer we've ever met -- next we will be instructed to never, ever mention our website.
Not in any correspondence, not on invoices, not ever. Or we will be in violation of policy. If turned in, we will be suspended.
I agree with you....to an extent. And that is well the way it should be and makes perfect sense.
But, breaking rules can not be equated with getting a better deal for volume trading or recieving perks for preferred customers.
The ability to break the rules with impunity has never been a socially or legally accepted perk that I've heard of, at least not after it had been brought to public attention.
Terms of Use, are in effect like laws that users are subject to in any given venue. Even in the real world, corporations are not allowed to break the law no matter how much they spend or make or contribute, etc., though they often think that is the case.
Look at Microsoft for example, they felt they deserved a different interpretation of the law and ended up in federal court.
Getting better treatment, better values, better service and bonus'.....absolutely
Being allowed to break the terms of service set for the use of the venue......sorry, though ebay may not be legally bound to enforce their terms of use equally, it is nevertheless unacceptable to the rest of their userbase, and they should be held to account for it.
Ebay is the king of the double standard, vulgar manipulation and intolerable greed. As the desire to see it cleansed builds like a glacier in an ever growing storm of dissenting, alienated and betrayed users, the ears that were turned deaf to justice and the voice of reason won't hear the mountain of ice coming, it will eventually roll over them and grind the immoveable rock into beach of sand, where I'll pitch my umbrella, sip a cool drink and reflect on how nice it once was.
[ edited by long_gone on May 22, 2001 07:33 AM ]
posted on May 22, 2001 07:34:53 AM
Hey folks, there was an extremely interesting piece of info in that article that is a neat idea, and doesn't break the rules.
The article stated that one large vendor directed buyers to his web site with his EOA email. The only way to complete the transaction was to got to the web site.
posted on May 22, 2001 07:46:34 AM
The question is, long_gone, ARE they breaking the rules? Or do they have a separate set of rules which is entirely possible.
In reading the User Agreement, I noticed this clause This Agreement may not be otherwise amended except in a writing signed by you and eBay Inc. which appears to me to give ebay the authority & right to sign agreements different from those in the standard User Agreement with Big Corporations.
I can easily see where Big Corporation is given the right to have a linking policy where us Non Big Corporations don't have that same right.
With that said, I don't believe Big Corporation should be allowed to violate basic policies such as what happened with the Oakley situation with impunity.
USPS should have been made to cease offering these items & repeated offenses should been cause for some action. I doubt ebay would suspend their operation as they would one of us, but I do expect they should have put a hard stop to it.
posted on May 22, 2001 08:01:33 AM
eventer- The "big boys" do have special agreements with eBay. In an article awhile back about the USPS using eBay the reporter asked the specifics of the deal and both parties declined to comment.
[ edited by reamond on May 22, 2001 08:02 AM ]
eBay, for its part, seems confident that an influx of mass-produced merchandise from large companies will not necessarily handicap smaller businesses. According to eBay spokesperson Kevin Pursglove, large retailers will have to play by the rules and live up to the same standards as smaller successful eBay businesses.
"Our sellers realize that to attract bidders and continue to build a presence on eBay the seller must have a quality product, maintain a solid feedback reputation, provide useful and accurate information, respond to bidder inquiries in a timely fashion, and deliver good value to the winning bidder," he said. "This is true regardless of the size of the merchant, retailer, or individual."
Hard to believe eBay's own Kevin Pursglove, based on statements he has made to the media about us mom & pop sellers in the past.
I quit being a net cop for turning in shillers long ago, but will put that hat back on by turning in the "big dogs" for site links to try and level the playing field.
The Corporate sellers come in with built in advantages of money, inventory, staff, and probably deals cut with eBay. Why should they be given the additional advantge of site links at the expense of the small seller?
[ edited by noshill on May 22, 2001 09:40 AM ]
posted on May 22, 2001 04:31:47 PM
Eventer, Reamond, Sadly, you are probably right, They have have distinguished terms of use.
Junkthis, The view should be splendid once the rock is ground flush.
I had a dream where everyone got fed up with their antagonizing new policies of greed and ebay went bankrupt. I picked through their trash and found some great stuff that I made a killing on at the hot new auction site. It seemed that ebay memorabilia was at a premium.
posted on May 22, 2001 08:38:36 PM
Take a look at half.com's policy concerning seller's relationships with 'their' customers.
As a half.com book seller I have:
MY inventory
MY prices
MY operational labor costs (inventory acquisition, data entry etc..)
MY paper and toner to print 'Half.com' packing slips.
MY packaging materials
Yet MY customer is not mine...she belongs to half.com. I'm PROHIBITED from printing MY URL or MY email address or MY phone number or MY advertising message on MY invoice/packing slip that's printed on MY paper or place any of MY advertising materials such as a bookmark premium in MY package with MY inventory being sent to who should be MY customer. Of course unless I'm MR. BIG BUSINESS OPERATION who gets to do all of the above including shipping in their own boxes with their website URL plastered all over the outside.
posted on May 22, 2001 10:55:20 PMBig corporations get perks, that's just a fact of life & I don't really see ebay doing things any differently.
Big corporations get lower prices on shipping. If you think you are getting the same shipping rate from UPS as Amazon, think again.
Eventer, I think the difference is that there is no secret that, for example, an Amazon gets better rates from UPS than an individual.
On the other hand, eBay is quite disingenuous about the difference in its treatment of big corporations and individual sellers. So maybe it is less about the rules themselves than the manner in which eBay holds itself. No one likes to be told that its raining when they are getting --ssed on.
posted on May 22, 2001 11:27:55 PM
I had visited a site last night that was in the Premier section and a seller had their website advertised in their description. They even said visit our website to see other selections that you can buy. They also (my opinion of their TOS) suggested if the reserve wasn't met that after the auction ends visit their website. Now those weren't the exact words but since the auction has ended I don't have the listing anymore. I thought the same thing about the corporate sellers and low and behold there is a thread about it. Now if we reported a site like that would ebay suspend them for 30 days. I doubt it since their items are usually 1,000.00 or more. Here is another idea for linking our websites. Put your TOS in the about ME page and then in the description direct them to that. I will make a bet though that eBay will start charging for the about ME page if that happens. Just how much money does the CEO need to live. She is worth 800 million according to the paper. Does anyone know if ebay has addressed the problem between Sellers and Big Business and linking to web sites? Oh dear a business opportunity that has turned sour.
posted on May 23, 2001 01:30:29 AM
That's an interesting article. I didn't see any mention of special perks planned for big e-tailers, though it wouldn't surprise me. I was very surprised that the AW reporter failed to mention the sellers' practices of "driving business to their web site" is a blatant violation of eBay policy. In my opinion, the article is very poor journalism as it intentionally omits important information.
I don't know how eBay plans to handle e-tailers, what links policy they will apply, etc., but I think several posters are overlooking the obvious. eBay is showing small sellers the door in no uncertain terms. Those loyal Mom and Pop sellers who plan to net-cop the big boys are wasting their time. Little sellers like us don't make the rules, and I think it's silly to hang around eBay just to complain about perks the big boys are getting.
I do believe eBay's strategy is flawed. It's clear their appeal to big e-tailers is based solely on eBay's current large membership. But I don't think eBay's current members are at all interested in retail merchandise. It's kind of like buying tickets on a cruise ship to Cabo, and then once you're on board, the cruise line announces that the ship is heading for Leningrad.
eBay may be a good site for big companies to liquidate closeout items or customer returns, but that is a far cry from a true online retail outlet. And it may be true that Ritz camera is selling some customer returns at half off, and even successfully hawking a few goodie bags as well. But then, perhaps eBay looks good because their retail sales are flagging.
One last observation: The decision-making powers that be at eBay have become too distanced from their customer base. eBay is dreaming if they think customers will simply switch from buying collectibles to buying K-Mart items. Plus, eBay will alienate sellers, who are already looking for an alternative, any alternative. Greed has taken the place of common sense.
I know most sellers, once they find an alternative venue, will leave eBay and never look back. eBay will remain profitable selling high-end items. eBay always pulls through. But they won't be wildly successful as they were as a collectible auction site.
posted on May 23, 2001 05:50:09 AM
If eBay doesn't expand its revenue with big retailers as projected, you're looking at an $8 a share stock for a collectibles auction site.
The small seller/collectibles auction market can not support the revenue needed to support eBay's stock valuations.
But I've said it before- the small collectible sellers brought the 20+ million members to eBay, now eBay is leveraging the members we brought to the site to the bigger players.
We are also in lose/lose situation. If eBay does not make revenue projections, do you think fees will remain unchanged ? If eBay does increase revenues with big retailers, do you think the small seller will have a voice or a secure place at eBay ?
posted on May 23, 2001 06:47:16 AM
I say this only as some observations and learning experiences for myself. Some of you may take exception because your experience is different.
I started selling online three years ago, not long compared some sellers, but at a time that the writing was already on the wall.
I saw that NEW merchandise was being offered at online auction sites increasingly and I came up with what I call the "Wal-Mart Rule" i.e...
"Don't sell anything you can find at Wal-Mart"
Some of you may have a better name but it works for me.
I don't have anything against Wal-Mart or the products sold there. And, I salute any sellers who are successful in selling online new merchandise found at Wal-Mart. Heck, some of you may be like the Wal-Mart of the Internet. For me, it seems too hard to compete. I don't want to buy and stock enough stuff to fill a big warehouse.
About eight years ago I researched opening a brick and mortar toy store in my home town. I set up accounts with the leading toy manufacturers and distributors and quickly learned that my wholesale prices were just pennies below what Wal-Mart's retail prices were. Needless to say, I did not open the toy store because the numbers did not crunch.
Many mom and pops stores throughout the country have learned the hard way. Many of our towns' main streets are ghost towns because most of the business is going to the big stores and big malls.
It seems that brick and mortar Mom and pops stores are having to specialize or niche merchandising with unique or high demanded services or products outside the scope of big merchandisers to survive.
My thinking is that history will repeat itself and online. In my short 3 years of e-retailing I have had to aggressively increase in width and depth the merchandise I offer. 99% of what I offer online is either used or new and not available in Wal-Mart.
posted on May 23, 2001 07:42:19 AM
I'm beginning to think that maybe the newest best strategy for the small eBay business person is "low profile". Keep your auction listings lean, clean and well within eBay guidelines. (especially if you plan to post to any of these OAI forums, as many a "target" is made on these boards) Use every trick in the book with respect to email communication. It's the personal communication aspect of online trading that will be the toughest for eBay to police. The internet itself DOES level the playing field. It's free and open communication that will keep individuals in a win situation. eBay is counting on it's members to police it's site. Simply don't turn each other in for trying to conduct business. eBay has plenty of options for "ligitimizing" off auction trades. If eBay chooses a path which requires a volunteer police force, that's their choice. Simply don't volunteer.
I'm not advocating circumventing fees rightfully owed eBay BUT sales need to be made. The bills need to be paid. If eBay sets up a system that is so loaded down with restrictions and limitations so as to inhibit sales, business people will find a way to work around eBay's rules OR simply violate SOME of the more difficult rules to police and enforce. So in a way, eBay's massive size adds to it's inability to control EVERYTHING adequately.
The strength of the internet lies with the power of individual communication. NO one company will be able to stop it or truly control it. Individuals won't allow it.
posted on May 23, 2001 09:04:50 AM
I would like to ask a question. Why isn't there someone out there able to start an auction site like eBay? It seems like the other auction sites do not get the traffic. If Yahoo, Amazon or any other auction business would hire an experienced person to get it on it's feet I think it will take off. A little effort has to be put into it. They have all the services in place they just need to implement them better. Main thing is to advertising.
posted on May 23, 2001 10:15:16 AM
funny I went and looked at the camera place that sounds like a cracker that is mentioned about in the story. if you check their auction feedback they have something like 400 and they have too many negatives to be able to qualify as a "power seller", but how much do you want to bet that they have their own account rep at ebay.
a year ago I guess I was a big boy, or at least a big boy on ebay, I moved into a warehouse, and had employees, networked the computers, ordered priority mail boxes by the pallet, we were going places. now I'm trying to figure out how to move it all back to the house(shop in the back yard actually) and as of January we have had no employees. yes once upon a time it was good selling on ebay, then everybody started to know what ebay was and it was great, now sales have slid back down to good, or maybe just mediocre . the market really is saturated on the stuff we sell anymore, and the fee increase at ebay hasn't helped the bottom line, but I know that when the cracker camera place gets the bugs worked out they will be able to squash the little guy, at least on what they sell, then add to that every other "big boy" that wants to throw their hat in the ring and ebay is in for some more changes.
really it would be great to see not one other person selling a camera on ebay, and with the "fee avoidance"(as ebay calls it) that these places will be practicing, by conducting the business they normally would anyway, will see to it that ebay gets what they deserve by not letting us little guys have a stupid little link in our ads. I guess that if some guy stumbles onto a old router that Sun Microsystems is auctioning and they decide to buy a better one from their site would that be "fee avoidance"? or maybe not? I know for the little guy it would be.
airguy: I think it will still be fairly "level" as long as the mom & pops pick up on the idea of having check outs on their websites and sending out EOAs that take their customers to their own websites for the process of checking out. Then sellers can offer other items (shopping cart) and Opt-In eMail lists to THEIR CUSTOMERS.
unless they go to the half.com format, and don't think they are not thinking about it. I have had a opt in email list for a little over 2 years and more than half of my customers have signed up, but it has been my experience that it doesn't do as well as I wanted or hoped.
also go and look at Sun Microsystems feedback, over 2% negative feedback and they only have a little over 200 total, that would keep them from qualifying for powerseller support. but I bet they have better support than any powerseller.
if you check all the shooting star powerseller that you can find, some have less negatives with over 10,000 feedback than the camera place has with their almost 400 feedback. I can't find the USPS auctions now but when I did check their feedback awhile back it was the same thing. I know these guys are targets but there is a definite theme to all the feedback, so you can't just discount it.
posted on May 23, 2001 11:22:36 AM
airguy: I definitely understand what you're saying... but I really think that if (when) eBay moves toward the Half.com format that Big Boys won't find the venue as attractive... and neither will the Mom & Pops.
eBay can't make money if the sellers decide it's too much trouble to list there. I think there will be a day when eBay "wakes up" to that notion.
posted on May 23, 2001 11:50:26 AM
The only way that ebay will ever have any competition is if someone develops a auction site that already has all the tools needed to run the auctions.
if your listening out there bidville, 123, yahoo, amazon, epeir... or even the software makers like auctiva, invenna, vrane, or whoever you come up with a site like ebay, with all the bells and whistles of the management software you now have. listen to the people and build in what they want and not what you think looks good, run on even the old fee base that ebay had, or less and you bet we'll follow. or half.com fee structure where you only pay if it sells and you could bury ebay, or more than likely be acquired by them down the road.
at this point the only reason I don't, and I bet most of the other sellers don't, use the other sites is I don't care to cut and paste all my end of auction emails, and I don't want to list one auction at a time. I've had this conversation on the phone with some of the auction management software makers and they've said that the market share is just too small to develop the software for the other sites if your going to take the time you have to do it for ebay.
Another way for you software makers to think about it is if ebay does go to a half.com management system, you guys are out of business.
posted on May 23, 2001 11:52:38 AM
It's not that much trouble for the big boys to list. eBay has probably supplied them with listing tools that would run rings around anything a small seller would use. And eBay will bend over backwards to get these big retailers on the venue. eBay will make more off these big outfits in one month then they could make off of us in 10 years, and the big retailers will cost eBay less to serve than several thousands of small sellers.
A fixed price format offers no barriers to the big retailers. Fixed pricing is what they do day in and day out.
Using a buy it now or fixed price format requires less management by the sellers. It also frees up server space quicker for eBay. Instead of setting on the active auction space for 5-10 days with a bid, the sale can move through the system as soon as the purchase is made.
These large accounts may or already do have designated account reps just for these big accounts.
"The view should be splendid once the rock is ground flush."
Yep... can picture the view already. Trying to figure if I want to admire the scene standing, sitting or swinging.
Entreprenural (clucthing head with both hands grinning smile) Flashback: I had a vision that someday I'll be selling hammocks by the truck load. Does this make me a "future" corporate heavey?
