posted on June 20, 2001 11:34:14 AM
I don't know, it's just happened once too often, and it's starting to drive me nuts.
Two times this month, I ran into uncommunicative sellers: one sent one e-mail and fell silent, the other never even wrote (or was unable to reach me due to e-mail troubles).
Hey, I have a life, have a job, buy lots of junk, get LOTS of SPAM, and am pretty busy. Just send a reminder e-mail, and if something has fallen thru the cracks, I'll take care of it. As for the seller with the e-mail problems, why didn't he try a user ID request? He actually has a history of e-mail problems, judging from his previous feedback. Hasn't he caught on yet?
No, they just NPB'd me without contacting me, not a single warning. Thanks, guys.
So now, even though I've been a good (but complaining...there is SOOOO MUCH to complain about!) eBay customer for OVER THREE YEARS, after buying huge amounts of overpriced junk, and reaping huge bucks for eBay, I'm only one "NPB", ONE BUTTON PUSH away from banishment.
And all because only three sellers have to push a button. That's it. Three button pushes over a period of DECADES.
The burden is then totally upon the buyer to somehow prove their point, which of course eBay doesn't give a flying you-know-what about.
Yeah, I got mad. Wouldn't you? A few times last night I sent in some e-mails making sugguestions, such as:
-requiring a "user ID request" of the buyer before filing an NPB (in order to prove that the seller TRIED to make contact).
-updating the "three strikes" rule to take into account long periods of time (three strikes in a decade? Is that all it takes?)
I realize the concept of trying to give a buyer a fair shake is a foreign concept to eBay, silly me.
Yeah, I sent it a few times. Figured their oh-so-state-of-the-art software would just nuke the dups, and after all, I WAS PISSED. I **HATE** being slandered.
Did I get a response? You bet...
NOW they're threatening to cancel my account for writing them repeatedly. Okay, that one was deserved.
Of course, what makes me even MADDER is that I was recently defrauded on eBay (by user "<name removed by poster>", fake autograph), and could provide proof at the drop of a hat (pre-printed autograph...I had explicitly asked if it was preprinted, they said no, changed their story after I received the item)...and of course, the seller is hapilly doing business there with nary a finger lifted by eBay.
What I don't understand is the total lack of respect that eBay has for the purchaser, as well as the total lack of effort going after bad sellers. Yes, the contract is with the seller, but it's the BIDDER who brings in the dollars. Do they REALLY believe that treating the vast buying public like cattle is a way to generate business? It perplexes, frustrates, and angers me more and more each day.
Are there any people over at eBay who give a flying one out there reading this? I'd really like to know: what's your views on this? I have to admit, stock answers and legalese BS won't cut it. Let me make it simple for you: answer the following question:
"How is it that a buyer is always three button clicks away from banishment, and yet a seller has to be litteraly under investigation for a federal crime to be?"
WELL?
[ edited by misterkbar on Jun 20, 2001 12:11 PM ]
posted on June 20, 2001 11:38:53 AM
Write the media and try to get your story published. I'm sure eBay'd love to see your story aired in the Press! That's the only way to force their hands it appears!
posted on June 20, 2001 11:46:50 AM
misterkbar--
Just a "gentle" suggestion that you might want to take the identifying sellers name out of your post so AW doesn't lock your thread.
With that said, I completely agree with you. That just stinks and I for one am sorry.
"I think it pi**** off god if you walk by the color purple in a field somewhere and don't notice it." Alice Walker
posted on June 20, 2001 11:46:51 AM
You realize that it's not the NPB that counts as "strikes" against your record, but only seller's submissions to collect their Final Value Fee credit. Between the NPB form and the FVF credit, there's a mandatory 10-day waiting period during which time the buyer and seller can resolve the situation. If they are unresponsive through email contact, maybe now would be a good time to get ahold of their telephone numbers to resolve the issue (assuming it's been less than 10 days since receiving your NPB notices).
Otherwise, I do agree with your assessment with ebay's "three strikes" rule. It's ridiculous to think that you can be "struck out" years after receiving two strikes. They need to have a system for "erasing" strikes over a period of time, in much the same way that points are removed from driver's licenses. Most true deadbeats tend to get NARUd very quickly anyway. People who get strikes through email server problems or whatever deserve to not lose their accounts that easily. Good luck with your case.
posted on June 20, 2001 11:57:09 AM
While it's true that ebaY has almost TOTAL DISREGARD for buyers, in fairness, one must admit that they also have almost TOTAL DISREGARD for sellers.
Your post contains a seller ID which is a violation of our Community Guidelines. Please edit your post to remove this information.
I will allow approximately 30 minutes for the edit. If it's not edited within that period of time, I will have no choice but to delete you post. Because your post is the first post to the thread, deleting it will delete the entire thread.
posted on June 20, 2001 12:10:15 PM
Thanks for the idea on the user ID. Is there a way I can edit it out? I mean, they really DID defraud me (as in, I've filed a complaint with the postal inspector and attorney general of their state), but if I can remove it I will.
Got a response from eBay, and they're asking for copies of my e-mails from over a month ago. Yeah, right. That's why it's VERY important for them to implement a provable e-mail system. Hey, eBay, here's a compromise:
1) ABSOLUTELY REQUIRE the bidder to contact the seller within one month of auction end. You need the time in case someone bids and then goes on vacation. This contact would be made via a button on the auction page itself, just like the way the "send question to seller" button works BEFORE auction end (right now, when you win, you get the seller's address).
2) Extend the NPB period to 30 days, leaving the seller filing date at 14-odd days. Buyer then has about two weeks to clear up the matter. If they do NOT make the required response in (1) by the 30 day period, the NPB goes in effect upon filing of a request from the seller or the 30 day period, which ever comes LAST. If buyer DID make contact in 30-day period, seller must send similar eBay-routed e-mail and make a 2nd NPB request no earlier than the end of the 30-day period.
Thus,
-a seller can still get the refund in approximately four weeks
-VERIFIED e-mail will have been sent via both parties
-verification of acknowlegement will have been provided by the bidder: in absence of which the bidder places him/herself at risk.
posted on June 20, 2001 12:28:03 PM
<<Two times this month, I ran into uncommunicative sellers: one sent one e-mail and fell silent, the other never even wrote (or was unable to reach me due to e-mail troubles). >>>
misterkbar,
Did you contact these sellers to ask what the info was after the auction? Or wait for them to contact you?
You didn't say.
I just got done filing FVF on 4 bidders.
#1 had 86 positives and never responded to my end of auction email, my it's been a week did you get my notice email, or my NPB alert.
#2 and 3 never responded and kept on bidding and paying for other stuff from their looks of their feedbacks,
and #4 said that their payment was mailed. Then never asked again where their items were.
Yes, things and people do fall through the cracks, but we have to take responsibilty for our own actions too. If you emailed sellers and saved those emails that would be something to show ebay that you tried to contact.
It is much easier for a seller to just file a NPB alert instead of emailing and emailing and emailing....
posted on June 20, 2001 12:33:41 PM
***I GOT IT!***
eBay likes to make money. They hate giving it back. Sellers hate getting stood up. Buyers hate getting slandered. So how 'bout this:
-In order to file an NPB for full refund, seller must allow for BidPay (or whatever the eBay credit card thingy is) as payment option, even if it was not set as a payment option during the auction. For such cases, there would be no BidPay fee, as eBay would be trying to prevent giving the auction fees back, which are MORE than the bidpay fees.
-Buyer then has two weeks after the NPB warning or end of the 30 day period (which ever comes last) to pay. Obviously, the verifiable BidPay approach would be best. Proof of payment would then be on the bidder.
Note that the "30 days without a verification" rule would still apply here, and would superscede this addition (i.e. if you don't sign in within 30 days, you lose, even if the NPB was filed on the 29th day)
Sound good?
Clearly, this needs some fine tuning. But this is a back of the envelope thing. With just a small amount of effort, this could be very easily turned into a verifiable way of completing a transaction, preventing (a) upaid sellers (b) loss of revenue by eBay and (c) really, really, really pissed and slandered bidders.
Bitching is one thing, but suggesting is better,
-m-k-b
posted on June 20, 2001 12:37:45 PM
Right.
And sellers that have 50 auctions end a day would find it soooo easy to keep track of what non paying bidder is where in the system.
posted on June 20, 2001 12:42:24 PM
Yes, I actually had written the two. In one case, I blew it, I forgot the item. A reminder e-mail would've worked just fine (turns out he had sent one four days after auction end, a bit too soon). In the other, there must be e-mail troubles, he NEVER replied (or I never received it).
Obviously, there would have to be exceptions for repeated violators, obvious rule breakers, that kind of thing.
But what I'm stressing here is VERIFICATION. Even the more honest customer service reps at eBay will admit that the process is too skewed against the bidder right now. If it's going to be skewed, that's FINE. But if you're going to skew it, you MUST provide a method for the bidder to verify and protect themselves.
Requiring an IRS-style "keep all your records" thing is unacceptable. If eBay is going to cancel someone's account after a measly three transactions over the life of the account, they MUST be able to accurately DEFINE a misdded, and provide proof of misdeeds, or else risk charges of slander. I would GLADLY turn witness in any class action lawsuit against eBay for this: I've been a victim of unfair NPBs one too many times (but obviously have never been suspended for them, as that would be downright silly, given my history).
Requiring a "post auction verification" is clearly the way to go in my opinion.
posted on June 20, 2001 12:51:32 PM
>(50 auction per day comment)
Well, like I said, some fine tuning needs to be done. But don't forget that in return for the eBay refund, someone's record is very nearly ruined without a way provided by eBay for that person to cover their butt. RIght now, they have to produce records, which is a bit unacceptable, given teh amount of SPAM in people's mailboxes.
My suggestions are just a start. What I am aiming for is tighter rules (none of this "SHOULD" business...you don't ruin someone's reputation over a SHOULD), balanced with slightly relaxed time periods and VERIFICATION.
Clearly, 99% of the auctions won't need to use these rules: these would be exceptions. But bidders need to be protected from unfair sellers as much as sellers need to be protected from unfair bidders.
Example: I was once NPBd for a $1 item. When the dust cleared, I found that the seller never bothered to write because he didn't feel that $1 was worth the effort (yet he felt it worth NPB'ing me!). On my end, the $1 item of fell thru the cracks too. Things like that happen. You need to diffrentiate between a dropped vase and a stolen vase (recompenasation versus jail). If you REQUIRE verifiable transaction closure, this WON'T happen.
posted on June 20, 2001 01:53:33 PM
Let me get this straight, your proposal says the seller should wait 30 days for their payment. So I should wait 30 days, with no email contact from a buyer, waiting for my $2.50 widget payment because my buyer is on vacation in Jamaica and neglected to think of this before he bid? Uh huh, sure, right...
posted on June 20, 2001 04:23:27 PM
Adultsonly, that is classic! That should printed in Teletype or Ransom font and framed like the Desiderata!
Too bad they caught wind of it and removed it though...
If anyone asks what's wrong with eBay, just point them to that post. All bases are covered. And it's hilarious too.
[ edited by bobokiki2 on Jun 20, 2001 04:24 PM ]
posted on June 20, 2001 04:38:15 PM
I think the new system is reasonable. Deadbeat bidders need to take responsibility for their actions (or inactions).
So, as I see it, here's what bidders must do in order to get thrown off eBay:
1. Ignore eBay's end of auction notice for the item (item #1).
2. Ignore the seller's end of auction notice, Item #1.
3. Ignore seller's (optional) reminder, if given, Item #1.
4. Ignore eBay's Non-Paying Bidder Alert, Item #1.
5. Ignore eBay'send of auction notice for the item (item #2).
6. Ignore the seller's end of auction notice, Item #2.
7. Ignore seller's (optional) reminder, if given, Item #2.
8. Ignore eBay's Non-Paying Bidder Alert, Item #2.
9. Ignore eBay's end of auction notice for the item (item #3).
10. Ignore the seller's end of auction notice, Item #3.
11. Ignore seller's (optional) reminder, if given, Item #3.
12. Ignore eBay's Non-Paying Bidder Alert, Item #3.
There's enought good, responsible bidders out there. We don't need folks who can't get it together and pay what they owe.
posted on June 20, 2001 04:44:15 PM
<<A reminder e-mail would've worked just fine (turns out he had sent one four days after auction end, a bit too soon). >>
And Let's not have that seller's optional reminder come too soon!
posted on June 20, 2001 04:55:13 PM
I have tried both ways. The way I used to handle things was definitely the Mr. Nice Guy way, sending reminders, and then when I would send them, I would get back a bunch of excuses, making me believe I would actually get payment. This rarely occured.
After hundreds of transactions passed,and I also grew in my auction volume, I got really fed up. I then decided that after 10-12 days, if I get no response, NPB will automatically be filed. Its so interesting how many more real payments I'm now receiving after doing away with gentle reminder notices. My view is that if the bidder cannot keep track of what they are purchasing, that's their own problem. It is not my obligation or responsiblitity to handle someone with kid gloves and waste my time, just because they are disorganized or simply do not care.
posted on June 20, 2001 05:29:31 PM
When ebaY auctions end, ebaY puts a little ditty at the bottom of the auction listing page saying that the seller AND winning bidder(s) should contact EACH OTHER within 3 days. This is repeated in ebaY's End-Of-Auction email to seller and winning bidder(s).
I often send EOAs and reminders to which I receive no response. Then after I file an NPB alert I usually get an email screaming "Why didn't you contact me before filing NPB?". Well, duh! I DID contact you, 3 times. You apparently didn't receive MY emails! Why didn't YOU contact ME?
Why on earth do bidders wait for weeks to hear from the seller when it's their duty to contact the seller within 3 days?
posted on June 20, 2001 08:43:39 PM
Good Question MrBusinessMan
I know when I am a bidder I only bid on items I want. And if the seller doesn't contact me in 24 hours I write to them.
Happened only once on a seller that uses EOA announcements and they were delayed.
How and why do bidders win something and then never inquire about it?
I find this happens most often when there is a bid put on right away that sits for 5 or 7 days. It's like they changed their mind of found something else.
posted on June 21, 2001 12:07:33 AM
Actually, magazine_guy, there should be more numbers in your list:
Ignore the notice that is sent as a result of the Final Value Fee actually being credited (3 times).
If the bidder sends the money even after the FVF has been credited, and if the seller is still willing to send them the item as opposed to returning the money, the tick mark can be removed. It can be removed either by the bidder filing an appeal, or the seller filing a retraction.
So, that's at least 14 steps, maybe 15, before a person is NARU'd for deadbeatedness.
