posted on July 23, 2001 01:08:42 AM
I have heard a lot lately about picture stealing and so far knock on wood this has not happened to me yet.
However, I was going through auctions recently in the category I sell in, and someone had apparently stolen my HTML coding. They used an auction launcher other than AW, so the background for their auction was a little different than mine. But they found one as similar as possible. However, the HTML code was obviously mine. We're talking same size and color. Some of the wording was even mine WORD FOR WORD. They changed it a little to fit their items. However, it was very obviously mine? I know that with pictures, you have rights. Do I have any rights for my HTML and wording????
Any advice would be appreciated. My thoughts on this are that someone looking at one of these auctions might be confused if they are one of my buyers and bid thinking it is me if they don't look carefully. I have been selling in this category for quite a while and this other person is a brand new seller.
What are your thoughts?
[ edited by amwell68 on Jul 23, 2001 01:27 AM ]
posted on July 23, 2001 02:41:46 AM
interesting question. i don't know what the copyright laws would have to say about html. but your words, those do fall under copyright law. you can email safeharbor with the link to your auction from which your words were lifted, and the link to the new seller's listing. if you think this might just be a clueless newbie, you might try emailing them and nicely informing them that what they're doing is not only against ebay rules, but a violation of copyright rules.
posted on July 23, 2001 07:45:07 AM
HTML hypertext markup language is used by anyone wanting to write specific information so that it can be read on the web (e.g., links, images, bolding, etc.). How can someone steal 'your' HTML when it doesn't belong to you? I am not speaking of your wording. That is another story and I would be a put out if someone was taking my descriptions. It sounds like someone who is a bit on the lazy side and doesn't want to take the effort to build their own.
I use HTML to make my wording blue. Why? Just because I like it. If someone else uses blue does that mean they are stealing my HTML? I don't think so.
Is that really a problem with the background and similarities? There are just so many options given when you list using AW or another source and there must be hundreds if not more auction formats that are very similar. Frankly, unless the backgrounds are particularly aggravating, I don't pay attention and focus on what I am trying to bid.
I do hope you get the portion about your verbiage being taken resolved. That is a bummer.
posted on July 23, 2001 07:56:02 AM
I believe that technically, the code you write is yours and copyrighted (just like any created work) at the time of creation.
However, it will be difficult for you to prove your copyright when the first thing you do is to post it for the whole world to see.
I don't think you have much of an issue here or an offense. Yes, they took your HTML (and I've taken JavaScript before as a learning tool). Be honored that they found your layout worthy of use and move on. Right now, HTML is not compiled, so you cannot prevent it. Sorry.
posted on July 23, 2001 08:46:17 AM
There is nothing proprietary about HTML coding as it is used on eBay. However, if they are using your words in a substantive way, eBay might take notice regarding their "copyright" policies.
posted on July 23, 2001 09:08:54 AM
This is a joke, right?????
What happened? Did they use a <IMG> tag and you feel that is specifically yours. Was their table the same number of cells as yours and feel that is wrong. Soory, but there are only so many HTML tags to use and they are for everyone. They are not yours to claim. As for the order of typing them, well, maybe they tried for the same or simlar layout, which would require the same order. And with HTML coding, if you did it, it has been done before by the people who create it. I do not see them coming after you.
posted on July 23, 2001 09:25:54 AM
Mark090 raises a good question about copyright and HTML.
There is no originality by the user in the HTML code itself- you're not the creator or originator of the code.
It would be similar to saying ' your Microsoft Office spreadsheet looks just like mine'.
I do not know how one would claim original and creative endeavor in the HTML code itself and its use(s)- as the use(s) of HTML were already created, published, and anticipated. Your original content may rise to protection.
Many people think that the "work" involved in producing content makes it protected by copyright - the amount of work it takes doesn't matter- it is originality and creativity that are the threashold hallmarks of copyright.
posted on July 23, 2001 09:32:37 AM
"Only so many HTML tags to use"??
There are only 26 letters in the English alphabet but copyrights apply there, don't they?
I would say that if this is some sort of canned HTML where you pick from a couple of choices offered BY the auction-launcher, well, yeh, seeing similar listings should be ignored. If the seller actively wrote the HTML, designed color schemes, laid out graphics and fonts, well, it's a copyright violation in my book for some lazy-ass twirp to just steal the code as a whole.
Here's my suggestion: imbed a few bells and whistles like graphics (or even .wav audios) that come from YOUR stored and named files at your proprietary storage areas. Say you have a general sort of margin image that you direct your HTML to, labelled "AA.jpg" on your ISP space. Then FTP a cartoon of a thief with a bag of goodies labelled "HTML swiped from Joe Smith" and name it "XYZ.jpg"
If you ever see your exact layout swiped again, go to your ISP and change "AA.jpg" to ANY other title, and the "thief XYZ" one to "AA.jpg" Poof, thief cartoon appears when anyone looks at the pirated listing. I could think of some nifty .wav's to substitute like that, too, if you junk your listings up with audio...
Don't get mad, get even. And if you don't do enough HTML writing to understand how to do what I just suggested, forget the copyright idea. That likely means you already are using mostly other peoples' work yourself by checking off from a list of canned choices.
Edit add: Of course, you have to cancel any listing of your own and relist IT with a new file name or two if you do substitutions, or else the "get even" files will appear in your originals, too.
[ edited by pyth00n on Jul 23, 2001 09:37 AM ]
posted on July 23, 2001 10:24:49 AM
While stealing your hmtl might broadly be covered under "trade dress" I wouldn't take the time to go after someone unless you could possibly prove they are trying to leach off your "EBay" presence. You might have some recourse with that VERO thing, but I don't know, I'm not really sure what it covers.
Our auctions are very distinctively "ours". I use a very bland html template to create all auctions. If someone borrowed it I'd probably send them an email if they were in the art supplies section of this "community". If they were somewhere else I wouldn't care. Most of our "look" comes from the way I border the images we use.
Someone actually did steal an image about a month ago. I wouldn't have cared too much unless they tried to continually use it. (they also used the auction title verbatum and changed trident_elgreco.jpg to trident_easel.jpg or something like that, blatant). They lied too, at least admit to borrowing it and the laziness involved!
It seems to have been a one-off thing so I really don't care now.
If someone was doing it to try to muscle in on our action in the art supplies section there would be hell to pay though.
World Domination through the sale of art supplies on EBay!
posted on July 23, 2001 10:44:31 AM
HTML code would be nearly impossible to copyright. Your wording is not.
Do keep in mind that you could be looking at 5 years to go through Federal court to make your point. It ain't worth that. Notify Safeharbour and let them deal with it.
posted on July 23, 2001 10:46:39 AMFolks, you are dead WRONG! Your item listing (the description, not the HTML tags themselves) is proprietary and not be used by others. Here is eBay's Community Standards page:
No Copying Allowed! When you prepare your listings you generally should use only material (text, photographs, etc.) and trademarks/names that you created or own yourself or licensed from the owners.
People, don't be so quick to counsel others to give up their legal rights. If you worked hard to create your own unique listings, you wouldn't want your competitors stealing your work. Especially when they are selling an IDENTICAL item.
Amwel, contact SafeHarbor, and if that doesn't work, join eBay's VeRO program. As a VeRO member, you can send eBay a note and they will pull the offending auction within a couple of hours, and warn the seller against doing it again. If the seller ignores eBay's warning, they can be suspended.
Don't give up your rights. You own your item description and photos.
. Internet Pioneers
posted on July 23, 2001 11:01:36 AMDon't give up your rights. You own your item description and photos.
I agree. I was under the assumption the original post was about the "layout" of the auction (html), not the "content" of the auction (pics and descriptions).
html is almost impossible to copyright which is why I brought up the "trade dress" argument. Seems like a waste of time to me unless someone is trying to actually piggyback on a reputation built up by someone else in the EBay "community". (My new favorite word for today)
posted on July 23, 2001 11:18:28 AM
Arttsupplies, there's a question of what's legal, and there's a question of what eBay allows. You don't have to take a user to court. VeRO will handle it. If, as a member, you abuse VeRO, you can get in big trouble. Also, the other party does have the right to dispute your claim. Really, eBay only cares about its own liability.
But the poster did say that portions of the description were copied "word for word." (Also, you CAN copyright the "look" of an ad. Though, obviously, pursing the matter in court might not be worthwhile.) However, saying you can't copyright HTML is like saying you can't copyright C++ or Java code.
It's one thing to take a bit of description from another source. But when one (newbie) eBay seller duplicates another (veteran) seller's auctions, the intent is to piggyback (as you say) on the seller's reputation, and even fool careless buyers into thinking the auction is being run by the reputable seller.
In the time I've sold on eBay, I've seen bits of my description duplicated, entire auctions including graphics copied, even sellers distributing my own software programs. Where do you draw the line?
<li>to see the source, go to "view source", or whatever it is on netscape...
<li>it makes people <i>really</i> angry. i should know. i go to some site with a picture on it i want to see the source for or something, and the owner takes it upon themselves to think that whatever they have there is worth protecting, when in fact all they did was steal it from someone else!!
<li>use this thing sparingly!!
</ol>
posted on July 23, 2001 11:53:07 AM
I don't mean to sound fippant about this,but isn't there another way to look at this? What about the old imitation is the sincerest form of flattery? I don't know what your auctions are selling, but if you are that good, congrats to you!!!!!
I really do like the suggestion about replacing your pic with another ,though,if the pic is silly enough, it might teach them a lesson about messin'.
posted on July 23, 2001 12:02:13 PMArttsupplies, there's a question of what's legal, and there's a question of what eBay allows. You don't have to take a user to court. VeRO will handle it.
I said to check out the Vero thingy...
But the poster did say that portions of the description were copied "word for word."
Which I agree is automatically covered by copyright laws.
(Also, you CAN copyright the "look" of an ad. Though, obviously, pursing the matter in court might not be worthwhile.)
Which is why I brought up "trade dress"... ="look".
However, saying you can't copyright HTML is like saying you can't copyright C++ or Java code.
I said "almost impossible". Html is pretty boring in itself. If there was some inline CSS or scripting involved in the mark-up it would make it easier to argue through VeRo or Safe Harbour.
As for copyrighting "C++ or Java Code"... What is easily copyright protected is the software that results from the "source code". Look at all the kiddies printing out: t-shirts, hai-kus, etc. with the source code to break the encryption on DVD copying. there is a free speech issue...
twinsoft, I agree with what you're saying but unless someone is trying to hurt your business on EBay, I personally think it's not worth the energy.
I said;
"If someone was doing it to try to muscle in on our action in the art supplies section there would be hell to pay though."
posted on July 23, 2001 01:56:37 PM
Html And other codeing Is public domain NOT copywriteable inless you have made your own code that works with most browsers and dont choose to open it to public use.
The word Java its self is copywrote but the Code is open for any programer to use.
you can hold a copyright on graphics for your ads and your brand name and your words.
The code you use to make these thing veiwable on the webbrowser is not.
color tables, frames or any other programing code its self is public domain free for any to use or distribute.
in fact this is part of the reason the goverment is after these big companies Micro soft netscape AOL and the rest if any one company is allowed to dominate and own rights to web programing no one could have a web page or auction ad or any thing else with out buying the right from these companies.
posted on July 23, 2001 02:41:34 PMDman, I am not a lawyer, but I believe code can be copyrighted. I'm not talking about the HTML tags but portions of the code itself. Look at the Everysoft scripts and at the top of each you will see a copyright notice by the author.
And if you did find yourself with portions of Microsoft's IE browser code, and used that code in your own product, I think you'd find yourself in hot water!
I believe the DCMA wording is, "any work that is set down in tangible form," not necessarily compiled code but any code (work).
Arttsupplies, yeah I know, but I was on a roll, so excuse me.
posted on July 23, 2001 03:30:50 PM
source code that makes up a program and the program its self can be copywriten yes but not the code it was writen with.
You can write a CGI Program in perl and copywrite the source code but you not copy writeing perl programing its self code and tages are open for use.
if you were to Uses tables CSS DHTML to make a theme disign for your website you could copy write the theme its self but not the code you wrote it with some one else can look at your site love its design go to there editor and build one like it with the code there would need to be more then the fact that they used HTML to make it to prove they took it from you after all no one can copy write table tags color or the like ..
in any case copyright infrigments are a funny thing they are nice if you Write a book and have it publish you wouldnt want someone rewriteing your book in whole or in part and publishing it.
on the other hand EBAY is legally copywriten
millions of people say and type Ebay millions a times per day yet ebay dont stop everyone on useing there name freely spoken or writen they concider it free advertiseing.
Copywrites are good to Protect Brands and Intellectual properties as it was met to do but People today are trying to use it today to the point where its more of a hinderance protect you Rights it can but it can also hinder it you as well as a business pushed to the point of no return.
it can be over used to the point where you make the people your trying to interest in your product just say to hell with it.
ALso there are many rules on what is and what is not Copywriteable.
Programing is not copywriteable because it is already copywriten by someone and Under public or privite license in which people can Pay for Rights to use it or is given freely to use.
Just like Domain Names You cant claim a copyright on a domain name because you are only leaseing the Domain the company you register through owns the Copyright and claims to it
posted on July 23, 2001 04:28:59 PM
Thanks twinsoft and mrspock and others for your good advice. I will sign up with VERO as advised and inform Safe Harbour.
I feel a little flattered that they thought my auction set ups looked good enough to steal. However, these auctions really look just like mine and as one person here put it, I feel they are trying to piggyback on my reputation. I am not a power seller or anything like that, but I've been selling for about 6 months and this other person is brand new. The items they are selling are in my EXACT category and they are definitely a competitor.
I do not have my code coming from a central source. I would probably not want to change someones auctions if I did though, but I would have no problem changing the name and deleting it. That would be nice. Well, again thanks to all. I'm going to go check out this VERO thing now.
posted on July 23, 2001 04:41:25 PM
Sign up with Vero to Protect a auction listing ???? Is this auction your Trade mark legally ????
Companies like Mircrosoft are vero Member to protect There Trade name and product.
Vero is more about what a person can or can sell not about how they sell it
DOnt think vero is for you inless you hold the Legal rights to what it is your selling .
WOW Maybe I should join Vero too I list my items with white and black black back grounds with large title text on the top do you know how many Auction I should be haveing shut down that are stealing my Idea..
I been on Ebay two years lots of people newer are getting away with useing my stuff ..
posted on July 23, 2001 05:01:26 PM
I use a great little java script on all my auctions. It disables the right mouse click and you can put in all sorts of irritating messages such as: "busted, stealing HTML is not cool" or, "steal my HTML and die, sucker!!" or whatever you want. When someone tries to steal you image they only will get this message. There is a way around it but most of these idiots can't figure it out.
posted on July 23, 2001 05:46:06 PM
If you were to make our HTML layout unique you could file for a copyright. You're not going to be granted the same automatic copyright as a desciption, so people are free to steal your HTML until you get the copyright.
posted on July 23, 2001 07:34:34 PM
<SCRIPT language="JavaScript">
function click(){
if(event.button==2){
alert('Thats a No No');
} }
document.onmousedown=click
//-->
</SCRIPT>
Go to ebay auction by doing a completed search of a seller called zenmaster and you can see how to protect your auction from picture stealing. THe code he uses is above.
posted on July 23, 2001 07:37:56 PM
There is no "getting" a copyright. A copyright is created as soon as a copyrightable work is placed in a tangible form.
In all likelyhood a mere discription of an item is not copyrightable. See below for a list of what is not copyrightable from the US Copyright Office--
"WHAT IS NOT PROTECTED BY COPYRIGHT?
Several categories of material are generally not eligible for federal copyright protection. These include among others:
Works that have not been fixed in a tangible form of expression (for example, choreographic works that have not been notated or recorded, or improvisational speeches or performances that have not been written or recorded)
Titles, names, short phrases, and slogans; familiar symbols or designs; mere variations of typographic ornamentation, lettering, or coloring; mere listings of ingredients or contents
Ideas, procedures, methods, systems, processes, concepts, principles, discoveries, or devices, as distinguished from a description, explanation, or illustration.
Works consisting entirely of information that is common property and containing no original authorship (for example: standard calendars, height and weight charts, tape measures and rulers, and lists or tables taken from public documents or other common sources)"
