posted on July 29, 2001 10:19:31 AM new
Going along with my other thread about free shipping, I am also thinking about self-insuring my items.
I wonder about claims that an item was not received. If I use delivery confirmation, will that cover me on that issue or am I leaving myself open to lots of phony claims of loss?
As far as breakage, I have a good rep as a packer and have had only a couple of things break. If I get the buyer to ship the item back to me in the original box (at my expense) and then issue the buyer a full refund, it seems to me I will make out better in the long run keeping the $1.10 or $2 for myself and not giving it to the P.O.
Is it ethical to self-insure without announcing it in the listings/WBNs etc? If I offer 'free' shipping, handling and insurance by building those expenses into the minimum bid, do I have any obligation to reveal the nature of the insurance?
Gerald
"Oh but it's so hard to live by the rules/I never could and still never do."
posted on July 29, 2001 10:25:45 AM new
DC is not proof that your buyer received the package it just proves the date it arrived at there postoffice many packages get lost after that point.
Why self insure when you can use a company like upic that is low cost alternative.
posted on July 29, 2001 10:27:43 AM new
we self insure everything, but do take out PO insurance/receipt card on expensive or very fragile items to underwrite our insurance. In all the years of shipping we have only ever had 3 things go missing, one was a purchase we made the other two were items we sold. I did have a fraud artist try to tell me that an item never arrived, but he had forgotten that I had a delivery card signed for that item (it was expensive). I don't tell people, but in the rare case of a refund due to loss or damage, I just pay it out immeadiately, no hassle, no endless emails back and forth, just pay the money and get it over with. We charge about 2 percent of the purchase price for insurance. I have never added it up, but I am sure we are ahead....
posted on July 29, 2001 10:37:37 AM new
In over two years, the only package I ever lost was going overseas and it was insured. Nothing ever arrived damaged. I tell my buyers this and I tell them I consider insurance unecessary but if they pay for it, I guarantee to replace the item should it get lost. Maybe 1 in 20 takes it. Haven't had a claim yet.
posted on July 29, 2001 10:41:02 AM new
Regarding DC, I was told by my post office that DC is scanned when it gets to it's DESTINATION - not just the person's post office. If it only lets you know when it is rec'd by that post office, DC would be useless.
posted on July 29, 2001 10:57:16 AM newdman3 - How is upic on paying out claims? Is the process an involved one or quick and painless?
ExecutiveGirl - I am pretty sure DC's final "scan" is when it arrives at the destination P.O. The postal carriers in my city don't carry scanners. But I think if DC proves it got to my buyer's local P.O., then if it is missing it is up to the buyer to go to his local P.O. and raise hell.
Gerald
"Oh but it's so hard to live by the rules/I never could and still never do."
posted on July 29, 2001 11:04:34 AM new
I don't understand how postal carrier's can NOT carry scanners. I live in a very small town, and there are many times my postal carrier scans mail right in front of me when I have to sign for something.
They also scan all DC packages when they get to the destinations - not the PO. My PO told me that if DC was scanned only at the local PO, then that is NOT "Delivery Confirmation". Delivery Confirmation means you are confirming it was DELIVERED. When it gets to the PO that is not "delivered".
If that's the way your PO works - I'd be explaining to them exactly what "delivery confirmation" means. You are paying for a service and NOT getting it if the packages are only being scanned at the local PO.
There is a HUGE difference between a package making it to your PO and making it to your home.
posted on July 29, 2001 11:14:16 AM new
Nope DC Does not prove the person you shipped to got the page it proves it arrived in there town some postal workers may carry scanners but I have never seen it here in NY anywhere foot mail people or route drivers.
Even if I give there carry letters and packages with out postage and money for stamps they have to take it back to the PO to and bring change back the next day.
I dont use I PIC but the reps and other who do use it say there insurance payment are fast the only thing with then is they are like any other insurance company if you start haveign to many damage claims your rate will go up as you become more high risk with them. http://www.Dman-N-Company.com
Email [email protected]
posted on July 29, 2001 11:18:17 AM new
Dman: I live in upstate NY and all the carriers here carry scanners and scan all DC packages when they get to the DESTINATIONS ... not the post office.
posted on July 29, 2001 11:20:34 AM new
Self insuring can turn out to be as big a loser for the seller as it is a winner if you insure item for .20 or .30 and end up with $100 in claims where are you going to invest .30 cents so it will earn that much return in a short period of time.
And if you going to pay for USPS insurance on some higher ticket items to under write your self insuring then why self insure ??? you might as well just tell the buyer if they want shipping insured pay the $1.10 the postoffice wants and save your self a ton of paper work.
also remember this insurance money has to be in a interest checking account or invested in some way to make money over time this account can get very high and become a tax burdon as well ... http://www.Dman-N-Company.com
Email [email protected]
posted on July 29, 2001 11:41:28 AM new
ExecutiveGirl
I live right here in the capital area of new york state the route drivers dont even carry stamps they cant exsept cash only checks they dont have scanners scales or any thing with them ever.
My mother and wife take care of all my shipping and They Are told items insured items sent with DC must go Directly to the PO to be scanned the two of them are sitting right here now shakeing there heads NO they will not and do not scan in route.
my wife and myself have ran mail order togeather for over 19 years, Auctions for the last two years and its always been the same.
UPS and FedEX do have computers for various things but not USPS.
The mail person will accept packages Addressed with out postage and a check for payment and they will mail back any change, THey would even exsept package with like endica DC printed out but it is scan at the postoffice they can't scan in route.
posted on July 29, 2001 11:52:02 AM newDman, it must be a regional thing, because the carriers that deliver my mail have a small handheld unit and they scan all the items when they deliver them.
As to self insuring, I don't think you need to announce it in your ad. It may be something you want to announce, that might perhaps give your bidders more security and thus increase your bids.
I have made the situation right when someone emails me to say they didn't get their stuff - by either a refund or sending another item. If they ask for a refund I ask them to fill out the USPS affidavit just to make them think twice about lying. I have had very few (less than 5) packages go missing out of many hundreds sent.
posted on July 29, 2001 12:03:52 PM new
I just had to go speak with my building superintendent who is also my mail carrier. In Boston area, scanning ends at the destination post office. In more rural areas where carriers drive, hand held scanners are more likely to be used and the scanning can be done at the recipient's location. As far as postal regulations goes, he says the destination p.o. is only required to scan it upon arrival...there is no requirement to scan at the delivery address.
Gerald
"Oh but it's so hard to live by the rules/I never could and still never do."
posted on July 29, 2001 01:50:35 PM new
I use U-Pic. They've always paid the claims promptly and with no hassle.
If you decide to self-insure, don't call it that. Either say nothing at all, or say 'we guarantee your item will arrive undamaged'... Calling it 'insurance' would be illegal.
Lisa
posted on July 29, 2001 02:22:15 PM new
My mail carrier carries a scanner. For those who live in cities where they do not, signature delievery confirmation would easily solve this problem. It costs for $1.25 in electronic form or $1.75 manual. I use it for high ticket items.
posted on July 29, 2001 02:35:32 PM new
Here in Elyria, Ohio the carriers must scan when they deliver it to the home. The postal clerks have verified this for me. Also, my father is a mail carrier in Cleveland, Ohio and he's told me that he has to carry a scanner to scan the packages when he delivers them to the homes.
Regarding the self-insurance part:
We had a lengthy thread quite awhile ago about this. In that thread it was determined that it's unethical to advertise insurance in your auctions and pocket the money, particularly if the amount you charge is equal to the amount of USPS insurance. Also, someone who claimed to be an expert of some sort in the insurance field said that if you advertise self-insurance in your auctions, that would be illegal unless you were licensed to sell insurance.
But I see nothing wrong with charging a fixed shipping rate that might slightly exceed the actual cost without mentioning the word insurance at all. Just don't make the amount exactly equal to the actual USPS insurance cost, like maybe 50 cents to $1.00 or so.
posted on July 29, 2001 02:55:25 PM newBJGrolle - All of the talk about "pricing" and not mentioning insurance makes sense. I was really thinking of just bundling insurance, delivery confirmation and handling/materials fees into one $2 surcharge.
The ironic thing is that given the average "value" of most of the items I auction, the postal insurance is a waste of money for the buyer, sometimes representing 20% of value. When you factor in the time the buyer has to put in to the claims process, it seems insane. And the return of a few dollars doesn't do much for the disappointment a buyer feels in not getting the "treasure" he was so happy to win.
As a buyer, I refuse to pay for insurance on any item under $25.00. Chances are even if it was insured, I wouldn't go through the trouble of trotting it all back to the P.O. and filling out forms.
As a seller, I would rather just return the buyer's money and be done with it. (We're still talking about low priced items here.) So maybe what I should do is say nothing, only purchase USPS insurance on the more expensive items, and pay off any damage claims on small items myself. I can't see why the buyer would care where the money came from as long as he got it.
Gerald
"Oh but it's so hard to live by the rules/I never could and still never do."
posted on July 29, 2001 03:07:21 PM new
I think you're on the right track.
I've only insured items when the customer has requested insurance or if I'd hate to be out of pocket myself because the sale was way above my average sale.
As long as you don't mention the word insurance in any form, I think you're free to keep the full amount you're paid for shipping.
posted on July 29, 2001 03:08:17 PM new
I would think there are laws that would make self insuring not so legal But to charge a fixed shipping price that is a tad higher then postage and offering a money back garentee acomplishes the same thing for the buyers security.
Just take and start a interest checking account to add money too for your coverage fund from the extra $$ collected but dont call it insurance then you can even use the extra funds to purchase USPS insurance or U-pic on higher priced Items you ship !!!
The only down fall as we can see here is you can only depend on DC working to prove the buyer didnt get there package directly in some area's and cities not all do this at this time don't mean in time the rule wont change to cover all areas.
http://www.Dman-N-Company.com
Email [email protected]
[ edited by dman3 on Jul 29, 2001 03:10 PM ]
posted on July 29, 2001 05:23:28 PM new
If the DC this thread is about is the USPS sticker with the bright green DayGlo band on top, it's purpose is to confirm delivery, not receipt. In other words, if delivered to the address, that's it. There is ABSOLUTELY NO confirmation concerning who if anyone at that address got it. That's what certified and registered mail is for. Also, a scanner is NOT necessary for DC. A pen will do.
So, what IS DC for anyway. Who knows, we're dealing with the USPS. Who ever knows what they think (?) But there is a good strategy for using this form.
STRATEGY: Use DC when you mail to a PO BOX #. THEN, guess what? A note goes in the box, and the recipient has the package "handed" to him. The only PROOF you have of anything is that "somebody" got it. But when the BOXholder is handed the package with a Bright Stripe that says "DELIVERY CONFIRMATION, you've just WON the "upper hand" in a battle of the mind.
Second Point: This strategy works well for low value items. For Pete's sake, if it's worth real money send it registered, self insure and CHARGE the customer. If its worth BIG bucks add some real insurance..
We're talking leverage and hedging your bets, not one iron clad rule for all shipments.
ReflectivelyYOURS.com
"Personalized Visibility" that brings good light to life
posted on July 29, 2001 05:33:20 PM newWhat good is DC for? If I ship using DC on a package, I know when it's delivered to my customer's HOME. They can't tell me I didn't ship it if I have proof that it was delivered to their door. I don't need to know who received it.. I just need to know it was delivered to their home.
Also, a scanner is NOT necessary for DC. A pen will do.
The "pen" is another type of scanner. It scans the DC labels. That is the "scanner" I was referring to earlier.
posted on July 29, 2001 06:15:05 PM new
Well it certainly seems clear (clear as mud that is) that how DC is handled is at the whim of the local postmaster, just like how insurance is handled. Which just means we can't know for certain WHAT any individual DC means unless we know the procedures of that particular destination's local post office.
Still, it is good enough for me to know that it at least got to the local post office because I don't think it is unreasonable to put the burden on the buyer to then follow up with local postal officials.
Gerald
"Oh but it's so hard to live by the rules/I never could and still never do."
posted on July 29, 2001 06:53:13 PM new
I use u-pic.com to insure my packages, at 40 cents per $100, it's a lot cheaper than USPS.
I will self insure items under $10 if I can replace it if lost.
I use the FREE or cheap DC from endicia.com.
using these two companies or self insuring, I insure 100% of my shipments. I generally charge $5 for s/h/i for most of my book shipments. I'm in Los Angeles and when I ship to the East Coast, I will usually ship via Priority Mail and if the shipments are to places West of the Mississippi, I'll ship via Media Mail and pocket the savings.
If a buyer mails payment to me by check, then I will use MM even if they are on the East Coast as most sellers place a hold on the check, I don't hold for checks to clear and usually ship the next day, so that extra time it takes for the package to arrive I consider reasonable if they send me a check.
Using Media Mail shipping coast to coast is supposed to take about 7 biz days, but usually it takes longer... So someone paying by paypal or mo I believe is in more of a hurry to get the package.
Anyway, at 40 cents per $100 value, it's not worth self insuring... I've gotten stung a few times when the post office has pancaked my shipments... I think they steamroll over packages marked "FRAGILE"
posted on July 30, 2001 05:44:48 AM new
I live right here in the capital area of new york state the route drivers dont even carry stamps they cant exsept cash only checks they dont have scanners scales or any thing with them ever.
***************************
I just called (because this was a concern of mine after reading your note) the Karner Road Main PO, in Albany, NY, and they said all postmen in the Albany/Sch'dy/Troy area carry the scanners to scan in the DC upon delivery. I followed that up with a call to the Sch'dy PO, and they confirmed it. I know the postman doesn't carry stamps, but delivery confirmation is something different.
Although I don't "advertise" that I self-insure (since I don't have a license to sell insurance in NY), I do add .50 handling fee to each of my sales to cover my shipping costs, and bank any left overs for "insurance". Since I have only had to replace something twice (damaged by the PO), it has worked for me. However, my items are only $15-35..when I sell an expensive item, I do insist on insurance pai by the buyer.
