posted on August 9, 2001 09:49:48 PM new
Those damn Paypal logos must work! I tried something for about the last month, and that was accepting Paypal but taking their logos off of my auctions. Taking baby steps to get rid of them for good. Telling people they can use it, but it is not my payment of choice. I have just gone through 4 ending auction days, the worst since I started Ebaying. So just this morning, I re-inserted PayPal logos on my Ebay auctions, and in the last 2 hours have had more completions, sales, and BIN'S then I have had in 2 weeks! Gotta give the devil their dues. People love PayPal. Gonna up those start prices and add a tad bigger handling charge. Then do some more cipherin'. Any one else had a similar experience?
posted on August 9, 2001 09:55:38 PM new
No, can't say that I have. I have NEVER offered PayPal on my auctions & I consistently sell 80-90% of my items first time out the door. [antiques & collectibles] The only CC payment option I offer is BidPay.
posted on August 9, 2001 10:09:49 PM new
Took all mention of paypal out of my auctions about 6 weeks or so ago...doesn't seem to have changed the bidding at all.
Could be just coincidental that you got better bids after reinserting the logo...maybe this time the right people were looking and a week ago they were all at the beach?
posted on August 9, 2001 10:44:29 PM new
I haven't sold in a few months but have bought several items. When doing a search I have to admit I will even pay more for an identical item if one of the people accept paypal so I can handle it quickly and easily.
I hate the fees as a seller but love Paypal as a buyer so I know I will have to include them in my auctions when I start back up!
[ edited by lindajean on Aug 9, 2001 10:45 PM ]
posted on August 9, 2001 11:01:46 PM new
I have sat back through the past several months reading all the entertaining reasons to leave Paypal.
I'm no defender of PP, as a matter of fact I really wish LESS sellers would offer it because that would be better for me.
Think about it...
eBay has one of the highest fees, but sellers stay...Why? Two words BUYERS & MONEY!
It's the same with PP, and if you're not accepting it then as far as I'm concerned you don't take credit cards. Most Credit Card buyers like PP, and if you really think it doesn't effect the price of the items you sell, you're fooling yourself.
Sure, I don't like selling an item for $5.00 when the customer using PP, but when I sell an item for $300.00 and the customer uses PP, I'm certain that he/she is so interested in the item and will pay whatever the price - because of "good old credit". The check/money order buyer is out of the game at one price while the PP buyer is in for the duration.
Have you ever priced setting up a merchant account to sell online? If you have you already know PP is a bargain.
At Christmas time everyone likes to buy nice gifts, and for many of us that means whipping out the Visa. Why should PP be any different? So many auctions offer the logo, and thats what is in the buyers head.
In this credit hungry society, a store couldn't survive on AMEX customers (Billpoint)alone,and not accept Visa (Paypal).
I asked a friend once why he preferred PP over the other services. He said that most sellers offer it and that opening up other accounts was like applying for more credit cards.
posted on August 9, 2001 11:20:01 PM new
auctionjoe
I disagree.
When Billpoint was first released I was offered their "Merchant" price due to my monthly sales. I offered Billpoint on all of my auctions for close to a year. 80% of my high bidders still sent either a check or MO. The % never fluctuated more than 5% over the course of the year. I sell items that range from $20-$2,000+, and I never have a problem getting bids, lots of them.
Over the past 6 months I've watched hundreds of auctions where PP was accepted [same item as mine] and the majority of the time my item ended at a higher amount, many times much higher.
Why?
Because most of the people I sell to are serious collectors, not impulse buyers who can't survive without a CC. As a matter of fact many of these buyers told me that they refuse to use their CC online. After crunching the numbers & watching my items receive more action that identical items where PP & BP was offered I concluded that buyers are mostly interested in:
1. Getting exactly what they bid on.
2. Clean auctions ie - quality pics & easy to read auction pages. KISS
3. Buying from a long time eBay seller with a clean feedback record
4. Great Customer Service ie - top notch packing - return policy [I stand behind my merchandise] - no shipping gouging - and no check "holding".
During these slow summer months I have numerous bids on my auctions, from the first day they're listed, right on through to the last minute snipers.
posted on August 9, 2001 11:46:44 PM new
Hi kiawok,
What your saying is fine & dandy. I offer everything you stated as well as a website that supports my auction sales and a storefront location that customers can pick-up/buy from. (I like that because they usually find something else to buy).
But, quality or reputation isn't the issue we're speaking of here. It's dollars and cents.
Since you claim to have never accepted PP you have nothing to gauge from. We offer PP & BP as well as ck/mo/etc. The number don't lie - for every 1 Billpoint customer - I get 15 Paypal customers. which is about the same as a Amex to Visa ratio. I have a merchant account at my store. Credit Card customers are 98% V/MC. I'm lucky to get 1 Amex and a couple Discover a month.
Bidpay isn't really a factor, I do offer it but customers don't want to pay the high transaction fees.
posted on August 10, 2001 12:01:41 AM new
I think it depends on what you sell. If you are selling a true collectible, it is not going to matter if you accept PayPal or not. If you are selling something that 10 other sellers have up at the same time, then maybe it will make a difference then.
But to me, I think value of PayPal is just overblown. I mean, unless all of the similar items are currently at the same price, the buyer is most likely going to view the one with the lowest current bid. That is human nature. There is no way to tell if PayPal or Billpoint or any other kind of service is available on that search screen. One has to go into the item to see what payment options are available. Does it make sense for a bidder to go into an item with the lowest current bid and back out just because there is no PayPal or Billpoint. And then bidder having to go into an item with a higher current price and bid there. I personally do not believe so. Especially, if bidder has to go thru multiple items before finding one with PayPal.
The reason you have so many buyers pay you via PayPal is because you offer it. It is a convenience. I had about a 25% ratio to other forms of payments when I was offering PayPal. When I dropped PayPal, no change in sales.
Not sure about stores and PayPal. No experience there.
posted on August 10, 2001 12:28:26 AM new
Hi commentary,
Lowest price doesn't always make the difference in bidding. This is where I agree with kiawok.
I host my own photos, create my own auction templates and that does make a big impression to the buyer.
Too many sellers use the "cookie cutter" templates, ipix, photopoint or whatever else is the easiest way to sell. Since this is my full-time business being professional and providing the best looking auctions/pictures/service are the only things, along with my good name that I have to offer over the casual seller.
True, bargain hunters will take a chance on a seller with a lower feedback or price. But, cautious buyers will do business with me time and time again even if my ultimate price is higher.
I still prefer check or money order from a profit standpoint, but when a guy who has been looking many years for that special widget and will pay crazy money to get it. I could really care less how I get paid or what his financial situation is.
posted on August 10, 2001 01:08:56 AM new
auctionjoe
My point is not that the bidder will always bid on the lowest price item. My point is that PayPal does not help you on the search screen. I am saying there is no rationale to think an PayPal logo embedded in your item description will help to draw more bidders.
Try it yourself. Look for something to buy. A good test will be to try and buy something you are presonally selling. See if the PayPal logo help you in anyway to select a seller. See if it anyway help someone to select you.
[ edited by commentary on Aug 10, 2001 01:21 AM ]
posted on August 10, 2001 01:44:07 AM new
When I offered both billpoint and paypal in the auction listing I had a 33% billpoint/66% paypal mix. When I took paypal out of the auction but continued to offer it in the end of auction email billpoint usage increased and it is now 50/50 paypal/billpoint.
Billpoint accepts visa/mc/discover (hasn't accepted amex for close to a year ) plus the electronic check. It is more convenient for the customer who is not already signed up with paypal as they don't have to sign up and wait to get verified like they do with paypal.
I also get a lot of people who use the billpoint instant pay.
I think to the average cutomer it does not matter whether you are offering billpoint or paypal...what matters is that they can easily use their credit card.
posted on August 10, 2001 02:49:32 AM new
commentary,
I understand that "Paypal" won't show up in a search. At the same time buyers will view the items with the lowest bid, they quickly realize that the 1st/lowest bids' usually won't win and that the action takes place the last day of the auction. When comparing same items they also look at the TOS of the auction. Sellers with flexible payment options will get higher bids.
amy,
Billpoint = Amex is only my comparison in popularity to Paypal = Visa. Maybe thats comparison is even a little too generous, Billpoint is like a "department store" card.
If you've actually done a 33% Billpoint credit card sales rate, you are the exception... and not the rule.
Even with the Billpoint logo in my auctions, and mentioning in email, it's a pathetic percentage versus Paypal. eBay knows Billpoint is a stinker for them. I did a survey for eBay and signed onto Billpoint about a year ago. Once every 4-6 weeks I get a call from them asking for my comments/input.
Since Billpoint is directly tied to eBay, it's not a widely accepted payment tool for anything else other then eBay.
More devastating to eBay/Billpoint is that they were caught sleeping while Paypal was growing under their noses... The answer is obvious.
It's not that I don't want customers to use Billpoint, it's just that they prefer Paypal.
posted on August 10, 2001 03:59:28 AM new
"When I offered both billpoint and paypal in the auction listing I had a 33% billpoint/66% paypal mix. When I took paypal out of the auction but continued to offer it in the end of auction email billpoint usage increased and it is now 50/50 paypal/billpoint. "
You could conclude that when you took paypal out, many of those who prefer to use it no longer bid on your auctions.
". People love PayPal. Gonna up those start prices ..."
I never could figure out the logic of this. You want to cover PP fees by increasing your final bid price. It is the final price that matters. How does increasing the start price increase the final price?
posted on August 10, 2001 04:00:21 AM new
I offer Billpoint, Paypal and Bidpay. I haven't received a payment through Bidpay in months. Don't know how they are surviving these days with their exorbitant fees to the buyer.
I did discover that in the last 2 weeks I've received the (almost) same amount of payments through Paypal as I did through Billpoint. Actual numbers were 40 payments through Paypal and 39 through Billpoint.
I will say that in the last 10days I've modified my "pay" letter to say I prefer Billpoint over Paypal but this has had little effect. I've noticed no change in the ratio (unfortunately-since Paypal is costing small-ticket sellers so much more when expressed as a percentage of the sale).
It is so hard to divine from all this what the best thing to do (as a seller) is except to offer as many payment options as possible.
I will probably add C2it and any other services as they become prominent especially if they are connected to/owned by an established bank. It just makes good business sense. To not offer an available service is to narrow your audience, plain and simple.
That said, Paypal is the worst company out there as far as seller's comments go. I've never seen a company raked over the coals like they have been. And rightly so-they have hurt the very people that built their company: the sellers that have been around since their inception who used their services. True they were the first but that doesn't justify their recent rate hikes (in the guise of a "simplified" rate structure).
posted on August 10, 2001 04:04:53 AM new
Auctionjoe,
I think another reason for PayPal beating BillPoint is the fact that BillPoint is such a bad deal for sellers. Many buyers are also sellers so they know that the seller may have to wait a week or more to get their money from BillPoint. Higher fees, 1 week float, deposit fee - BillPoint just plain blows. I only offer it because newbies may feel more comfortable using ebay's "official" credit card payment system. As a buyer I never pay with BillPoint unless the seller does not offer PayPal.
Commentary
It is possible to determine with a search if a seller takes PayPal without viewing the auction. You can search titles AND descriptions with "PayPal" as one of the keywords. Although you might get a few "No PayPal" auctions. Also some sellers actually put "PayPal" in the title of their auctions. I would do this but there never seems to be enough room.
I've seen many sellers claim that not offering PayPal does not hurt their sales. It may be true if they have no EQUIVALENT competition in their category. But if a seller has competitors who are just as good as they are, competitors who have the same items, the seller not offering PayPal will be at a disadvantage.
posted on August 10, 2001 05:22:12 AM new
mustpar-
Where are you getting that info on Billpoint being worse for sellers than Paypal???
I pay way more to Paypal than Billpoint (about twice as much!) for the exact same services even with the .5% deposit fee from Billpoint factored in. I get my deposits from Billpoint next business day so there is hardly any float. I have the lowest merchant fees with both of them.
posted on August 10, 2001 05:28:00 AM new But if a seller has competitors who are just as good as they are, competitors who have the same items, the seller not offering PayPal will be at a disadvantage.
Not so.
I have NEVER offered PP & my items generally sell for more than those who sell similar/identical items & do offer PP.
Do you think I'm making this up? I've been selling on eBay for 4 years, I'm a Power Seller, and I have an 80-90% sell through rate each & every month.
How many of you PP cheerleaders can say that?
I also know a Gold power seller on eBay [min. 25 K per month] who only sells antiques & collectibles. He doesn't accept *any* form of CC payments & moves 25-40 K worth of merchandise per month on eBay.
How many of you PP cheerleaders can say that?
I don't need to offer PP for a comparison, I was doing this long before PP came onto the scene, and I'll be doing it long afer they leave.
My hunch is that one day eBay will squeeze PP off of their site, which would mean an overnight death for PP.
posted on August 10, 2001 06:06:03 AM new
I just checked the completed search list for a common, but collectible Shawnee Pottery item. [Puss N' Boots Creamer]
Here's the stats on the last 25 complete items: [items not meeting reserve were not included]
As you can see from the above sample the highest price paid in the last 2 weeks was to a seller that accepted no form of CC payment.
I think the numbers also clearly indicate that offering PP in no way increases the final bid amount. IMO selling on eBay is all about timing.
Many of the sellers offering PayPal were also offering Billpoint, but I didn't have time to single those stats out as well.
Feel free to check the above numbers out yourself. This certainly doesn't come as any BIG surprise to me, I've been checking this out closely for the past year.
I think one thing that does seriously limit your final bid amounts is whether or not you ship Internationally. IMO that's a MUCH larger factor than what form of payment you accept.
posted on August 10, 2001 06:06:30 AM new
I have a Billpoint Merchant Account, but find them to be much more expensive in one respect, CHARGEBACKS. Just visit the eBay Billpoint board to see what that's all about. PayPal is a whole lot more flexible on what types of payments I can accept/deny and in almost all cases I know if the address they pass along to me matches the CC being used. Billpoint also takes about a week to repond to inquiries (not just my experience), and charges you an additional $10 fee for chargebacks (I don't pay that being PayPal Preferred). BP also seems to have a recurring problem of payments made not showing up in the seller's account and refunds to buyers not going thru. In short BP is the screwiest of eBay's screw-ups.
posted on August 10, 2001 06:12:06 AM new
There are plenty of buyers that have no cash on hand and depend on CC to pay for their purchases, impulse or not. The fact is, there ARE buyers out there who will not bid unless they can use their credit card. If you don't offered credit cards, you reduce the pool of available bidders. You may be perfectly happy with the outcome without accepting credit cards and that's great...
But anytime you arbitrarily cut off a pool of bidders logic dictates that you are getting fewer bids than you would if you didn't cut off that pool of bidders.
As a buyer, I prefer PayPal because it's fast, efficient and provides me with an excellent downloadable history file. And I can use an instant transfer from my bank account. I don't like Billpoint because unless I use credit, I have to wait 3-5 days for my "electronic check" to clear (float) through the Billpoint system. I won't use money orders because they are the least safe way to pay other than cash. My "personal checks" are actually guaranteed bank checks issued and mailed directly to the seller by my bank, but unimaginative sellers continue to sit on my item for 10 days.
As a seller, I prefer Pay Pal because I like getting my payments fast and I like being able to get the item out the door quickly. Pay Pal buyers usually pay immediately. When I didn't have the Pay Pal logo in my auctions I received enough email from potential buyers asking if I accepted Pay Pal to convince me that it was not only important to accept Pay Pal, but to put the logo in my auction listings.
I am happy for anyone who can get by without taking credit cards. My stuff just isn't that rare or different or higher quality that I can afford to ignore a large pool of bidders. I need every advantage I can get.
Gerald
"Oh but it's so hard to live by the rules/I never could and still never do."
posted on August 10, 2001 06:13:43 AM new
I have in all my auctions listed right now That I do not accetp paypal, but if I open an account and the logos were inserted (which are allowed, right) would it matter what was written? I seriously doubt it!
posted on August 10, 2001 06:29:44 AM new
I personally don't think that selling on ebay full time makes one's opinion more valuable or more informed than those of part time sellers. Not all part time sellers are "hobbyists"...most of us are in it for the money just like full time sellers.
Gerald
"Oh but it's so hard to live by the rules/I never could and still never do."
posted on August 10, 2001 06:42:32 AM new
I think that you are possibly coming to false conclusions due to too many variables.
In general, the largest fluctuating difference in final values, when dependent on type of payment, heavily relies on the acceptance of personal checks, not electronic payment. Another variable is whether or not a shipper sends internationally.
If it were possible to take personal checks & international sellers out of the equation, you would likely find more accurate results.
Personally, I am a seller who does not accept personal checks, nor do I ship internationally. I have about a 60/40 split in electronic payments. (PayPal is the majority).
I have found that Billpoint users pay faster (quite often within two hours!) because it is so easy to make payment through the auction.
It is more common for PayPal users to "think" they have sent payment when they actually haven't completed the transaction or they have sent it to the wrong addy ~ simple typos lead to unclaimed payments.
Although I know I am in the minority for not accepting personal checks/shipping internationally, I still have a 95% sell through rate at closing values higher than my competitors.
Perhaps my "out of the norm" results skew my reasoning. Many sellers swear by taking PC's and shipping all over ~ the lack of these two options hasn't hurt me a bit.
With over 1000 fb (just got my new star!!), over 200 of my FB is from returning bidders. 90% of my FB mentions how quickly I ship.
IMHO:
* Suffice it to say, I don't think accepted payment methods alone is the deciding factor *
posted on August 10, 2001 06:53:45 AM newBut anytime you arbitrarily cut off a pool of bidders logic dictates that you are getting fewer bids than you would if you didn't cut off that pool of bidders.
That would only be true if the affected pool of bidders was one that might be bidding on your auctions in the first place.
posted on August 10, 2001 06:53:46 AM new
If I were to sign up for paypal, I would need it to definitely improve my sales, to the point that it would cover the extra fees. 3% + another 30 cents is a big chunk of profits when you are in this as a part timer, whose profits are minimal. (Let's just say that if it wasn't fun for me, I wouldn't do it). But, I still need to come out ahead at the end of the month!
posted on August 10, 2001 06:59:13 AM newI personally don't think that selling on ebay full time makes one's opinion more valuable or more informed than those of part time sellers.
Most of the time I would agree 100% with that comment, but not in this case.
posted on August 10, 2001 07:01:32 AM new
For me, it is a matter of giving the customer what they want.
This is my bottom line, customer satisfaction. I try to remove all "barriers to bidding", which means offering multiple payment methods, extensive copy, good pictures, clear and honest shipping, and it works.
Like most sellers, I have quibbles and complaints about both Billpoint and Paypal, but then again, I can find room for some praise, too.
Every seller is different and in my case it is about 1/3 each to Billpoint, Paypal, Check/MO. I find the Billpoint is used most frequently with BIN, Paypal on auctions that run their course.
I am also a Power Seller, but won't invoke it as making my experience superior to anyone else. Heck, we all have different experiences depending on what we sell and who our customers are. (And you won't find that dreaded Power Seller logo anywhere near my auctions - complete turnoff to many bidders I think.)
Very interesting thread with all the differing points of view - makes me think!
posted on August 10, 2001 07:04:00 AM new
Well done Zoomin. Congrats on your success!
As with most things, I think the largest factor is what one sells.
If I was selling CD's, computer parts, or girly clothes, I could see where accepting instant online payments would be a huge asset.
I only sell antiques & collectibles, and my research over the past year proves this is not necessary, nor is it a factor in how many bids each item receives, or how high those items end at.
