posted on August 14, 2001 02:35:43 PM
I sold a widget. When I emailed the high bidder, I stated that I recommend insurance, which I do in each and every email since I have been selling. Bidder said no, didnt want insurance, even though this item was breakable. So I wrapped it well, inside a box wrapped with newspaper, then wrapped it again and packed it inside two priority boxes end to end (it was oblong, so I used the big ones, and stacked them one on top of the other, then taped it all around) and in huge letters I wrote FRAGILE all over it, top, bottom and sides. Lo and behold, I get an email from the customer saying she did not accept it from the post office because it "sounded broken" and she wanted to return it and get her money back. She also stated that the post office in her home town went on to tell her that IF it was insured, they wouldnt pay it because it wasnt wrapped "legally" and that since it was broken (it SOUNDED broken to them), they "advised" her refuse it and return to sender for a full refund. Well, I stated that she should have purchased insurance, as I requested, but it was her option and that the post office didnt KNOW it was broken so they had no business telling her what to do or expect from the seller (me) to issue a refund since they dont know my policies (all sales final), and they didnt know squat since they claimed the box was wrapped "illegally" which there is no such word to describe how I wrapped it in TWO priority boxes and SHIPPED priority mail.
I would appreciate some advice from sellers and bidders to this situation. She refused the insurance, she sent it back, and she now wants a refund. My policies state NO REFUNDS, I told her to purchase insurance, and I didnt ask for it back. What would you do if you were the seller, and what would you expect of me if you were the buyer?
edited to add that I did inspect the box when it arrived today. It was SMOOSHED.
[ edited by hepburn on Aug 14, 2001 02:36 PM ]
posted on August 14, 2001 02:43:27 PM
Hmmm.... Have you opened it to see if it was broke? I've seen some "smooched" boxes that contained undamaged goods.
The Post office has guidelines for packing... for most items, 2 inches of packing materials all the way around the item, For fragile items, double boxing, etc. Did the box meet PO packing guidelines?
I know, I know, I'm asking questions, not giving answers.
posted on August 14, 2001 02:44:29 PM
How much did the item sell for? If it was fairly expensive, then she should have purchased insurance, period. I know I would have had I bought it from you. If it was a lower priced item, I might not because I if the package gets lost or the item gets broken I could replace it (probably) with a small amount of cash. This is why some sellers require insurance on breakable items, for situations like yours.
If your policy is to not refund, then that is your right and you do not need to refund at all. If you choose to go that route, then say bye-bye to having this person as a repeat customer. On the otherhand, if they think you did a bad job packing the item, they may not buy from you again anyway.
Some sellers refund the item even if the person didn't pay for insurance. Some consider that a part of good customer service. Of course, it all depends on the value of the item too.
Myself as a seller? If it was a low priced item (under $15 maybe?) I would probably just refund it to make them happy and then forget about it. If it was a higher priced item, I would stick to my guns and say "no refunds". You did suggest insurance afterall.
Good luck in whatever you choose.
[ edited by WeRuleWithTechnology on Aug 14, 2001 02:46 PM ]
posted on August 14, 2001 02:48:23 PM
Sounds like the item was packaged very poorly. You actually taped two boxes together? Even though the customer did not purchase insurance, you should give her a full refund. Better hope she didnt pay with paypal, then she could do a chargeback.
posted on August 14, 2001 02:50:17 PMWhat would you do if you were the seller, and what would you expect of me if you were the buyer?
If I were the seller, I'd tell the buyer "tough luck- no insurance, no refund" (politely, of course). If I were the buyer, having specifically declined insurance, I wouldn't have dreamed of asking the seller to refund.
posted on August 14, 2001 02:53:53 PM
More questions rather than answers: did the buyer pay with a credit card? If so, she can do a chargeback anyway, so you might consider a refund to avoid the chargeback fee.
posted on August 14, 2001 02:58:41 PM
chazbme99
from your comment it sounds like the 2 boxes beung taped together is your reason for the neg, if so i beg to differ. i tape many priority boxes together to fit many different items. if properly taped and fitted they work just fine. i have literally used more than 20 priority boxes taped together to ship numerous items. those items have gotten me feedback like this "master packer""an expert packer" etc. now how it was wraped inside is the key. if it was adaquetly packed, be honest with yourself, then i feel a refund is due. normally though i have to stick with my terms of not refunding on uninsured items
posted on August 14, 2001 02:59:27 PM
I would refund no quetions asked the buyer refused the shipment this means they never took posesion it still belongs to you.....
The postoffice advised right if there is any doubt refuse and return to sender ask for replacement or refund.
As is is only a good Term if the buyer takes it this buyer did not...
This is a good case for the argument about the seller paying insurance when the buyer refuses when in doubt insure it yourself for your own protection...
posted on August 14, 2001 03:10:09 PM
To be honest and state my feelings, I am very ticked that HER post office said it was "illegally wrapped" and told her to refuse it. I am also ticked that she said NO INSURANCE. Then she had the gall to say I told her "I dont think its necessary" when in fact I never said any such thing and told her to send me the email where I supposedly said it and she said she "deleted it". Uh huh. Right.
My post office handed me the parcel and when I told them what it was all about, they themselves inspected it, unopened, and said it looked fine to them except for the SMOOSHED part. I opened it IN FRONT of them and they saw the packing inside..the box inside, nestled in newspaper, then I opened that box and dug thru more newspaper and there was the item..in two pieces.
No it was not an expensive item. No, they didnt charge it. It isnt the cost that matters right now, since it was very low (under 10 bucks). Its the principle. She lied about me saying it didnt matter about insurance and tried to blame it on me when she refused it. Yes, she sent it back, but I didnt tell her to. She won it by bidding, she should have wanted to protect it. No, I dont care if she never comes back as a customer. My feedback speaks for itself regarding my packing, honesty and quality of items I offer.
posted on August 14, 2001 03:20:25 PM
>I would appreciate some advice from sellers<
Well, being me I would probably return the bid amount only. (seeing the buyer was offered but refused ins.) Not a penny of the shipping would be refunded.
What I would LIKE to do would be to tell the buyer tough luck, your problem now.
Also the feedback would be considered. If you have not left feedback yet you can always retaliate (yup, I know, so what) depending on what's left for you.
And I would block her right now from ever bidding on your stuff again.
posted on August 14, 2001 03:38:11 PM
I am at the stage where I dont give a rats patootey about feedback anymore. I never leave it first. If she negs me, yes, I can retaliate if I so choose but personally, I dont really care since the good outweighs the bad. If she doesnt leave me any at all, I dont care about that either. Feedback doesnt phase me. The principle does. I might give her a credit on her next purchase, but only in the amount of her high bid, NOT the shipping, or the return shipping. On the other hand, giving her a credit is just as bad, since we wouldnt be in this situation if she would have insured it. I have to think about it.
But thanks for the input. Gives me more to think about.
posted on August 14, 2001 04:03:00 PM
First off, I don't think the Post Office has any business making comments about a package that they have not opened. Your buyer is not accepting any responisibility in this matter what-so-ever. She turned down insurance and never even bothered to open the box, just took the easy way out and had the package returned.
In the future when someone refuses insurance on a breakable item I would make it very clear that if the item arrives damaged you will not be responsible. Many sellers put that in their TOS. The most I would do in this case is offer a partial refund, if that.
posted on August 14, 2001 04:08:21 PM
I have now added to my auctions that I feel will get a 15.00 bid or more. Insurance is optional unless winning bid is over $15.00 and then you are responsible for insurance. Of course you can pick your own price. That should help you.
posted on August 14, 2001 04:26:26 PMIf I were the seller, I'd tell the buyer "tough luck - no insurance, no refund" (politely, of course). If I were the buyer, having specifically declined insurance, I wouldn't have dreamed of asking the seller to refund.
posted on August 14, 2001 07:38:46 PM
I wouldn't refund here.
You have proof of mailing because you have the returned item.
You have your emails to her saying you recommend insurance.
Your post office seems to think the item was packed just fine.
I'd like to see the postal regulation saying that using two priority boxes is "illegal." Sounds like either she's lying or her postal workers are of the inferior type (big mouths, no brains). We've used two priority boxes on a number of occasions, and have a lot of feedback saying we do an awesome packing job.
You're correct - it is the principle of the thing. By letting her off the hook, you just reinforce the notion that someone else will pick up the slack for her irresponsibility. You offered insurance - she bet on the US Postal Service. Betting is a gamble. This time she lost.
A note: you're not really doing yourself or your customers any service by using newspapers. I charge a handling fee for my bubblewrap, but overall, the customer saves money because the newspaper weighs so much, you usually go up at least one pound in weight. Also, it just looks a little more professional to use bubblewrap, peanuts, etc.
posted on August 14, 2001 07:39:30 PM
I just tried to post this & it did not do through, so is two show up I'm sorry. Over the last 15 years I have packed many thousand packages. I have dealt with the claims dept. of every major carrier. They will tell you newspaper alone is not enough. That is the standard you need to live by. Wrap in bubble wrap, Then fill in the spaces with peanuts. Use a good condition box that is rated for the amount of pounds you but into it. If in doubt over pack. The 2 boxes taped together does not fly with them either. We have all resorted to it for odd shaped items, but a claims agent will jump all over it.
posted on August 14, 2001 07:45:15 PM
I got a kick out of the Post Office claiming the item was "illegally" packed. If that's the case, then why did the Post Office you mailed it from accept it?
What I see here is a situation that is a no-win. Like dman3 pointed out, the buyer never actually had possession of the package. At this point, YOU have the package and the money and she has nothing.
As much as it would gall me, I would send her a refund and FORGET it. Unfortunately, she got one over on you by refusing to accept the package. She's pretty savvy, if you ask me.
posted on August 14, 2001 07:52:38 PM
How did the buyer pay you? If you were paid through Paypal, Bidpay, etc. You will get a charge-back and the seller will be reimbursed.
Insurance should not be a choice for the buyer on any item that you are not comfortable refunding out of your pocket.
Insurance is to protect the SELLER, not the buyer.
posted on August 14, 2001 08:26:55 PM
When they said "Legal" they are not talking as if the police show up at your house and arrest you. The mailman meant it did not meet standards for a claim. You should be able to get these standards from your post office. As for as why they excepted it, it may not have been obvious, also it is not their responsibility to make sure our packages are packed well. Also the refusal of insurance or delivery confermation does not releive the shipper of all responsiblity. If this was true you could put your item in a paper bag with a stamp & send it away. Some jerks would just never send merchandise and say they did.
posted on August 14, 2001 08:43:35 PM
Spittingcamel, I agree with you that a buyer who opts out of insurance does not absolve the seller from the responsibility of packing carefully. But look at it this way:
eBay has all kinds of sellers from hobbyists to large retailers. And from sellers who've been doing this for years to sellers who started today.
Even as a new buyer when I started, I opted for insurance for everything I purchased except one pair of plastic salt and pepper shakers I got for $1.99. The buyer is responsible to have a modicum of intelligence also.
Then there's the PO. If you get an honest postal employee, you'll find out that marking fragile on a box means squat. You'll also find out that they use some kind of machine that they actually refer to as the "mangler." No matter how well you package the item, if it ends up on the bottom when the mangler dumps the packages out, there's a chance your box will get at least dented if not crushed.
As to the idiot who won't mail anything if you don't insure, that could happen whether you insure or not. But if you pay for insurance, you'd be able to request that the seller file the claim after 30 days if you don't receive the item. If they don't have the insurance slip, then either they're irresponsible and out of luck, or they tried to steal from you.
Any adult in the U.S. who hasn't figured out that damage by the Postal Service is something you surely want to insure against, imho, isn't playing with a full deck.
To me this incident is just another one of those, "I was too cheap to fork over $1.10 and now I'm crying 'cuz it backfired."
posted on August 14, 2001 09:50:59 PM
No insurance wanted? Tough then. No full refund, no product, give me my neg and move on. Might stop this buyer from pulling this stunt again. How did the post office know it was improperly packed if it was not opened up? She took her chances, spun the wheel and lost. Refund her bid price but no shipping charges. Maybe she will think twice about insurance the next time.
posted on August 14, 2001 10:10:03 PM
The fact that they could hear the parts inside is a good clue. Newspaper is infamous for shifting inside a box so they may have been able to feel the item moving around. Also one of the functions of packing material is to support the integrity of the box itself. If the box is no lomger square it can mean bad packing. I have no idea if this is true of this shippment. We have not seen it. There are visual clues of bad packing. Then again you can receive a perfect box with factory packing and have "concealed damage".
If the packing was the problem then refunding the shipping is all the more important.
posted on August 14, 2001 10:35:28 PM
It's to bad that happened to your package, but when you mark Fragile on your box a red flag goes up in the USPS and they do their darndest to see what happens when it falls. Just joking, I hope. My friend bought dishes from a seller, 63 pieces to be exact, she did pay for insurance and the package came and 60 out of the 63 pieces were broken. They were only wrapped in newspaper and there was tape along the bottom of the box. She brought the package to the Post office and they did pay for the entire package. So I don't think it matters how you pack. I don't use newspaper because the ink comes off the paper and gets all over everything and makes it messy. I am sure there are many places that have those peanuts and will give them away, just to get rid of them. In fact in our free ad in the paper today someone had a bunch to give away.
posted on August 14, 2001 11:23:32 PMspittingcamel get off your high horse, er, camel. I have packed inxs of 5000 glass, pottery, porcelain, etc., items ALL WITH NEWSPAPER! Newspaper is just fine, and IMO hold items firmer than peanuts. Peanuts allow items to shift more than newspaper. Out of 5000 items, I've had perhaps 10-12 broken ones.
There is an ART to packing efficiently and safely. Spending tons of money on peanuts and bubble wrap dosen't make a professional packer.
edited to add: my items are wraped in commercial saran wrap to protect them from newsprint. The only thing that gets dirty is my hands, and they wash just fine.
posted on August 14, 2001 11:54:43 PM
The buyer is 100% correct in what she did. Insurance is only good if the item is lost or damaged in transit with PROOF of adequate packaging. In this case, it was clear that the packaging was not adequate. Even if the customer had taken out the insurance, no claim would have been paid.
Once again, we have a case where a seller thinks insurance protects against both loss in transit and damage in transit. That is not true. So, instead of accepting the blame for a bad packing job, seller is bent on taking it out on the buyer.
By the way, the buyer did a smart thing. In refusing the package, the buyer saved on the return postage to the seller. And, if the item was truly adequately packed (which is not the case here), the seller can easily file the claim since the item was returned in the original box unopen. If the buyer had opened it, she would have to pack in a larger box so that the original packaging is sent back to the seller.
Score 1 for the buyer. Newspaper is not acceptable packaging material. Also, I think UPS have a tougher packing standard than the USPS. I think they require 3 inches of packing material all around.
posted on August 15, 2001 01:49:31 AM
How can anyone say that it wasn't packaged properly. Nobody has seen the package but the postal workers, buyer and seller. One postal worker said it wasn't packaged right but the post office that it was mailed from, took the money and mailed it. Come on and get real I will bet that this seller isn't the only one who packages with paper. Breakage and loss of package are an everyday occurance with the postal department. They handle many packages so it is bound to happen and they picked hepburns package. In the future, if it was me, I would fork out the price of insurance to protect myself not the buyer because as you have found out buyers get very irate if their package don't arrive. This will make life easier for the seller even if it is going to cost an extra $1.10. 1 negative doesn't make for a bad feedback so if it happens ignore it and move on.
