posted on October 16, 2001 09:09:15 PM new
Okay, I haven't been on here a while because of e-rude... so I would appreciate some CONSTRUCTIVE help....
I acquired a Kate Spade handbag from a woman who said she purchased it in New York on her honeymoon several years back at the Kate Spade store in New York.
I listed the purse as "100% authentic Kate Spade handbag or full refund guaranteed".
I don't live near a store that sells Kate Spade handbags to have it verified, but the quality of construction, fabric and findings suggests to me that it is real. I do handle a lot of designer goods, and can easily tell a real from fake Hermes, Vuitton and Gucci bag. Chanel can be a bit more difficult, but I have not handled any Kate Spade products until now.
I list it and its purchased with the buy it now feature for $110.00 with no questions asked by the buyer.
I ship the item, leave positive feedback, and the buyer writes to say it has arrived and that it smells, its covered with cat hair, and that the bag is a fake.
I write her and explain that we do smoke, however we have only had the bag in our house for a few days, and it wasn't where we smoke for most of the time so it can't be that bad, and to just air the bag out. I also tell her we do have a cat, but I know I prepped that bag before shipping, and it was not covered with cat hair, there may have been one or two hairs, but it was not covered in hair as she protests... I use one of those roller things on all items before shipping, and I remember very clearly cleaning it. I also suspect that its perhaps the shipping material she is smelling the smoke off of, not the purse, as those materials are kept in the area where we smoke. The bag is wrapped in a brand new clean plastic bag first, so I am beginning to think this woman overstates the truth to the extreme. So I ask her to please take the bag to a representative and send me a report of why the bag is a fake.
She responds by saying she is an expert, and cites that the bag does not have a "Made in USA" tag inside it.
I restate that if she sends me a report from a third party expert (and I do know that representatives will do this for free when asked) that I will happily refund all money including shipping of the bag.
She then writes to tell me a story about taking it to a "girl at Saks" and lists a series of things wrong with the bag from a doubled stitch to a crooked seam... but neglects to tell me who this "girl" is. SHe also says the "girl" disagrees with the fabric that I have identified the bag to made of, which is brushed denim. She calls it flannel. Now, I may not be a Kate Spade expert, but I know my fabrics and I know she is wrong.
During this process she calls me directly and/or implies that I am a liar, thief, swindler, fraud artist etc... I have a feedback of nearly 3000, and 14 negs, of which 13 are retaliations from deadbeats...
She has a feedback of nearly 300 with 8 negs from dealers with similar stories to mine, that refer to her as being "crazy", "rude", "a lunatic" etc. There are also a couple of negs from buyers who claim she sells items with fraudulent descriptions!
She now says that she is going to fill out an ebay fraud report. She has demanded a full refund by October 28 and has no intention of returning the bag as it is "junk". She says she will supply ebay with a third party expert's appraisal. She won't send me one, at least not one that is verifiable.
I dislike these sort of confrontations to the extreme, but she has been thoroughly unpleasant since the beginning and I am afraid that I dug my heels in by requesting the appraisal. I have kept my offer open to her of a full refund including shipping with proof of its fake manufacture, and at this point I have also requested an apology from her for her accusations...
Anyone have any experience with this sort of situation? I don't think I have been unreasonable and she is choosing legal action and insults over problem solving, but she may win! And I will be out the bag, the money, possibly my ability to sell on ebay, and some of my pride!
posted on October 16, 2001 09:59:05 PM new
I write her and explain that we do smoke, however we have only had the bag in our house for a few days, and it wasn't where we smoke for most of the time so it can't be that bad, and to just air the bag out.
Yes, it can be that bad, especially if it spent several additional days boxed up in smoky packing materials. For someone extremely sensitive to cigarette smoke, "to just air the bag out" won't solve the problem.
I also tell her we do have a cat, but I
know I prepped that bag before shipping, and it was not covered with cat hair, there may have been one or two hairs, but it
was not covered in hair as she protests...
One or two cat hairs would be enough to trigger an allergic reaction for me. My eyes are starting to water just thinking about the combination of cat hair and cigarette smoke. Get the bag back, and refund her money.
posted on October 16, 2001 10:09:21 PM new
I don't see where the "fraud" is here. You have a customer who is unhappy with a product that although you guarentted to be authentic, you admit here that you are no expert:
"I listed the purse as "100% authentic Kate Spade handbag or full refund guaranteed".
I don't live near a store that sells Kate Spade handbags to have it verified, but the quality of construction, fabric and findings suggests to me that it is real. I do handle a lot of designer goods, and can easily tell a real from fake Hermes, Vuitton and Gucci bag. Chanel can be a bit more difficult, but I have not handled any Kate Spade products until now."
Perhaps you should have travelled to the nearest store to you to have the bag authenticated. That seems to me to be the seller's job when making guarenttees - not the buyer's job after the sale.
posted on October 16, 2001 11:07:11 PM new
KarenMx - The item was not sold as "mint" condition. In all the 6000 sales we have had on ebay, I have only ever had 1 other comment on cig smell of an item, however, they still left me a positive feedback! I have also had 2 other people write me and ask BEFORE buying whether we smoke.
And if anyone is that allergic to cats, then I think it is their responsibility to ask questions before buying. I have a friend who is severely allergic to dogs and somewhat less to cats, and it is the first question she asks of anyone before going to their house. Dog slobber can literally kill her! She has come over to our place, and it takes about a half hour inside our home before she starts to have problems, but she has worn some of the clothes and the odd stray hair does not bother her!
Sorry, I am not arguing with you, but the buyer's statements were VERY overstated, and were meant to set the tone for her dialogue, which was one of flailing about trying to find any reason to return the bag. Not a rational "I am sorry, but this bag is not a real Kate Spade. The following features are not to be found on a Kate Spade product 1:....blah blah blah...."
posted on October 16, 2001 11:16:33 PM new
squeeky: The closest store is nearly two hours from me and in hindsight I could have said that it had not been authenticated by a Kate Spade dealer. However, situation as it is now, is it unreasonable for her to prove me wrong? If she provides me with the information then this whole thing is over - she gets all her money back, and an apology from me. But she has not given me this option... and to be perfectly honest, I wonder if she isn't just trying some scam as her feedback insinuates she has done in the past... I would think the first important thing to do is to find out whether it is real or not and go from there...
posted on October 16, 2001 11:23:59 PM new
KarenMx: PS - you said "get the bag back and refund her the money"... this is one of the issues she has not offered or suggested, or responded to my request -- a return of the bag. In her last email she has requested a full refund by October 28 without a return of the bag.... This is what makes me think it might be an elaborate hoax to both keep the bag and the money!, plus she can attempt to ruin my ability to sell on ebay as well! And there is history of her abuse and attempts of fraudulent selling (just what she is claiming of me) in her feedback file.
posted on October 16, 2001 11:45:06 PM new
Well then, you need to protect yourself in some small way against a possible fraud charge. One way to do that would be to send her an e-mail stating that you understand she has several problems with the bag, two of which she has already enumerated for you (cigarette smell and cat hair). An offer to accept the return of the bag before refunding her money will speak well for you should she actually file a fraud report with eBay, just as her refusal to return the bag after your offer will certainly work against her.
FWIW, I (probably) wouldn't neg or neutral someone because an item arrived smelling of cigarette smoke or sporting enough cat hair to cause a reaction though I would mention it in my feedback comment, nor would I ask for a refund unless it were *really* bad, or had been described as new/mint/whatever or coming from a smoke- or cat-free environment.
[ edited by KarenMx on Oct 16, 2001 11:49 PM ]
posted on October 16, 2001 11:46:32 PM new
Since you made a guarentee, you should refund the money (then you can have the bag authenticated (perhaps by mail)). However, no one can ever refund anything without return of the goods. It would seem fair to me that they should return the bag, you refund, plus both postages. If they still refuse to return the bag, you can tell Ebay, or whoever is investigating that you offered her a full refund upon return of the bag, since she refuses to return the bag, you can not issue the refund.
posted on October 17, 2001 02:32:04 AM new
fonthill, I agree with most everyone else, tell her to return the bag and then send her refund, do not refund until you receive the bag.
As far as the smoking and cat hair issues. I am a heavy smoker so I added that to my preferences here at AW and it states it at the bottom of all of my auctions. It also states that I will not refund for smoke smell.
I do my best to keep most items away from my smoke, books and any cloth items are stored outside of the house.
As far as cat hair goes, this should definitely be mentioned in your disclaimer paragraph. Anyone with a severe allergy could sue for damages if they are not made aware ahead of time.
posted on October 17, 2001 05:56:27 AM new
I agree that you should not refund unless you receive the merchandise back.
However, since you do smoke and have pets, that is something that should be disclosed in your auctions. I can tell you from experience that when you live in a smoking environment that your senses are dulled, literally. When you don't live in a smoking environment, your senses return to a fuller capacity and you then become sensitive to smoke.
Also, my husband has asthma and the smell of smoke and/or pets will trigger an asthma attack.
I don't care how high your feedback number is. Unless you start disclosing these things in your auctions, you're going to wind up on the wrong end of a lawsuit someday if your item makes someone seriously ill.
posted on October 17, 2001 06:26:17 AM new
sounds like a smelly piece of merchandise to me,refund and move on.
from your post-bot from a woman several years ago,lived in a house with cat,smoke and packing material ,just plain bad news.
most ebay items sound better than they are,i just received a nike shirt which looks like it has been washed and ironed??
posted on October 17, 2001 06:44:54 AM new
"And if anyone is that allergic to cats, then I think it is their responsibility to ask questions before buying"
Please ... give us a break!
Pretty soon potential buyers are going to have to come up with a multi-page questionaire to cover their butts if they think they may get hosed by a clever seller.
Refund her payment in full (per your guarantee) and move on
posted on October 17, 2001 06:52:33 AM new
fonthill,
Appears too late to prevent it from turning confrontational, so the best you can do now is protect yourself.
At this point, I would send a letter, signature required, to her stating the following:
Dear Buyer,
I am sorry you are unhappy with your purchase. As I stated in my Terms of Service, I offer a 100% refund if the item is found not to be authentic.
Though you have not provided me with any expert verification that the item is other than authentic, I have stated I will provide a 100% refund when the purse is returned to me in the original condition in which you received it.
I will gladly include in the refund, your cost to return the purse to me. Once I receive it & verify my seller's mark on it, I will send you a total refund check via certified mail.
Sincerely,
Seller
YOU set the stage here & have it in written communication (emails are great, but nothing like real life snail mail when in a legal or other dispute).
If she continues to refuse, then you have written proof you have offered to resolve & it makes her claims look a whole lot less reliable. By offering to pay shipping back and to send a refund check by certified mail, you are, again, setting yourself up as a professional & she'll come off looking like a disgruntled party who's the problem.
As to the cigarette smoke..yes, you should mention it in your description. I smoke but am sensitive to cigarette smoke (sounds stupid I know but I don't like the smell) and it even bothers me.
I don't smoke inside because my husband doesn't smoke (boy am I grateful for mild winters!) but I try to keep smoke away from all ebay items & packing material.
I suggest you set up a room (if this is feasible) where you shut off vents which could bring the smell in there & keep your ebay items & packing material in there. And still use an air freshener.
As to cats, dogs, etc., I have a cat, a dog & horses plus lord knows what else running around here. I'm not about to start detailing out my life in my description on the off chance someone MIGHT be allergic to the particular brand of carpet I have.
posted on October 17, 2001 08:53:49 AM new
Cat allergies are not that uncommon. I am allergic to cats, and I dont' buy anything on ebay that cannot be washed. If I emailed every buyer that I was THINKING of buying something from, asking them if they had cats...I'd probably be kicked off of ebay. There are 3 cats that live in our house (my huband's) and they are NOT allowed in my office, for several reasons, not the least of which is my auction merchandise. I do not advertise in my auctions that I have cats because the cats are NOWHERE near my merchandise. it comes into the house in a plastic bag and goes straight to my {hermetically} sealed office. If, however, they were allowed to mingle with the merchandise, then I would put it in my TOS.
posted on October 17, 2001 09:42:30 AM new
cin131 ...
In fact, asking someone if they have an allergy to anything, or divulging any similar information on a puplic website *may* be a violation of the Personal Health Information Act, or whatever your equivalent is.
I do know, for sure, that I would have a bad reaction to the dreaded (rhymes with Amtrax) virus (!) ... does that mean I have to ask every seller ahead of time if they have ever been exposed to it, just in case. As a matter of fact, do I have to ask them about every possible contageous (sp?) disease that they or anyone in their home has been exposed to, just in case?
This is ridiculuous and absurd ...
btw, the reason I don't let my cats near my PC is due to the bid they placed for me some time ago while strolling across the keyboard.
I wonder if eBay would suspend me for retracting that bid?
I already know the answer ... they definitely would
posted on October 17, 2001 09:46:14 AM new
"And if anyone is that allergic to cats, then I think it is their responsibility to ask questions before buying"
What a crock! There is absolutely no reason ANY ITEM has to be sent out with ANY cat hair, dog hair, food, dirt, etc. No reason for it to smell either.
posted on October 17, 2001 10:28:02 AM new
YEAH WHAT NEFISH SAID..... and most of the others!
NO BAG, NO REFUND
I was so amazed reading your original post fonthill, I was going to say something about WHERE she no doubt has a cat hair bothering her...... but as my kids know my alias on here I decided to let it lie.
She obviously has a little hobby that keeps her entertained, please be as dry as possible in any further responses to her. You further inflame and entertain her. c'mon I know you toned down your reporting of your side of the conversations just a bit. Your listing for the stupid bag contributed to the reason she selected it to bid on in the first place. It left you wide open.
I would email one more time and let her 'win' just a little in hopes that the matter gets resolved; "Hi Hysterical Swindler, (umm, use her real name instead) I am sorry that you're unhappy with the bag purchased from me. I will refund postage both ways and the full purchase price upon return of the bag. thank you, bag seller
Don't forget to block her from your auctions!
.......don't forget to check your spelling BEFORE submitting!
[ edited by immykidsmom on Oct 17, 2001 10:29 AM ]
posted on October 17, 2001 10:38:47 AM newhas no intention of returning the bag as it is "junk".
I don't see how you SHOULD refund with her being unwilling to return the bag. If she wants a refund, you get the bag back--first! Or no refund whatsoever.
However, you offered a guaranteed refund. Why not give it without the customer having to prove it's authenticity. Why make the customer jump through hoops? Just put an end to it by giving the money back, IF she is willing to return the bag.
-------------
I had a thing like this happen to me once, but it wasn't an authenticity issue, it was a condition issue (expensive camera). He said something on the camera didn't work. I said no problem, please send it back for a full refund. Oh but, he wanted me to send the money back first, then he would return the camera. Yeah, right. What a bunch of B.S. that was.
I refused a refund without first getting the camera back and I never heard from him again.
