posted on October 18, 2001 11:59:14 AM
Last month I contacted an eBay seller to request a shipping quote to Canada for a GO Video Dual Deck VCR. The unit I was interested in was a factory refurbished unit and according to the seller's listing, it came with a 90 Day Manufacturer's Warranty.
For you folks who may be unfamiliar with the GO product, it’s a dual VCR that allows easy copying of videotapes. I have two of these and wanted a 3rd to keep up with my tape trading hobby. Up until April 28, 2000, the GO product allowed the duplication of copy protected tapes (the commercial releases that you can buy or rent at Blockbuster). As a result of a ruling by the Digital Millenium Copyright Act (federal law), the sales of ANY device that would permit the defeating of copyright protection was made illegal.
The unit I was interested in did not have this copy protection defeat feature (I don’t need it).
The seller responded to my request for shipping info with an offer to sell me the product off eBay. He wanted to save the selling fees (these units are around $300.00). I accepted his offer and he agreed to send the VCR to me via USPS air mail for a shipping cost of $43.00 US.
The unit was eventually shipped to me via UPS truck (at a cost of $17.00) and I ended up paying another $32.00 in UPS "custom brokerage fees". This, by the way, is why I asked him to ship via USPS.
The VCR has not worked at all since the day I got it, and becuase I purchased it direct from him, I had no "buyer protection" from eBay. The seller refused to offer a refund, ship another unit, or even pay for the so-called warranty repairs. I contacted the manufacturer with the model number and serial number of the VCR and asked them how I could obtain warranty repair. I was advised by their Warranty Administrator that this eBay seller is not on their approved seller list, that they have had "numerous problems" from his customers, and that he cannot offer any warranty. GO Video considers this "transferred property", and warranties to not apply.
Net result? I’m stuck with an expensive boat anchor unless I want to fork out another $200.00 to have it repaired. It cannot be repaired in Canada so I would have to send it to the USA.
Realizing that the seller was not about to stand behind his listed warranty coupled with the fact that he hosed me on shipping, I decided my only recourse was to try to have his auctions for the illegal VCRs (total of 17 the first time I reported them) ended for violation of federal law (by the DMCA), and misrepresentation of the warranty. On four separate occasions, I contacted SafeHarbor and timesensitive with his auction ID’s, cuts from the listings indicating that the decks could duplicate copy protected tapes, a cut from the DMCA clearly stating that the sales of these decks is illegal, a cut from the product owners manual stating the warranty and the fact that it does not apply to transferred products, and the name and telephone number of the GO Video Warranty Administrator that eBay could call to verify my complaints.
On 4 separate occasions, eBay ended the auctions.
On 4 separate occasions, the seller relisted them.
On the 5th complaint, which included details on this sellers current listings (yes, the exact same items that had been ended 4 times before by eBay!!), this is the response I got from eBay:
From: eBay Time Sensitive <[email protected]>
To: xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Sales of Illegal Electronics on eBay (KMMxxxxxxxx)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:56:15 -0700
Hello,
Thank you for taking the time to submit this information to eBay.
Whenever we receive a complaint we look at the seller's account to determine if further action is warranted. eBay has established protocols that determine when action is to be taken against a member's account. Although reports such as yours are very valued and taken into consideration in these investigations, several other factors also influence this decision.
In this case, the member does not meet our internal guidelines for suspension. This decision was based on established guidelines that include the member's feedback profile status and the number of complaints we have received as well as several other factors.
Aside from taking possible disciplinary action to a member's account, which we do according to established protocol, eBay cannot initiate contact for a member or initiate formal proceedings against a member.
From a legal standpoint we can only suggest options that you may take action on. If you are unable to resolve this issue with the other member, you may want to file a fraud report with the National Fraud Information Center at www.fraud.org.
This organization is a primary contact for reporting internet and phone fraud. Their internet site is equipped to help you with any questions you may have about the fraud reporting process and is even set up to allow you to process your complaint on-line.
In extreme cases, you may also want to consider contacting authorities in your area and where the seller resides. If you choose this option, we will gladly help Law Enforcement with any inquiries they may have. Please have the investigating officer contact us at [email protected] with the following information:
1. The case number
2. The officer's name
3. The officer's telephone number
We sincerely appreciate your efforts to help us keep our site safe and fun. Thank you for your participation in the eBay community.
Regards,
Gordon
eBay SafeHarbor
Investigations Team
posted on October 18, 2001 12:53:57 PM
If they can't even tell that they previously ended identical auctions (those of us familiar with the process call it using a database), I suppose we do not have prayer. But eBay does have long standing practice of not getting involved unless forces outside of eBay apply legal pressure.
I had a similar experience with Amazon which I never pursued--the defective item sits in my closet. You have to check out the seller before you buy and that's no guarantee.
posted on October 18, 2001 12:59:24 PM
Hi kyms ... I understand!
I erred in judgement when I made the off eBay purchase, but the seller made me an offer I couldn't refuse.
The point is this seller is harvesting other off-eBay buyers by using his email address as his ID, he is selling illegal and misrepresented VCRs to other members, he has been warned several times by eBay (so they tell me anyway), he continues to keep relisting the same items that eBay has already ended (so they tell me anyway), and eBay could care less. I don't know of any other way to make my point other than email every person who bids on his stuff with a warning that if their VCR is defective, too bad.
I do not believe this is a case of "buyer beware" - eBay has enough information to suspend this buyer and protect their buyers, but they choose not to.
It's sad when eBay turns the other way for obvious bad sellers, even when their so-called "investigators" are given proof positive, yet they are so fast to jump all over buyers when one steps slightly out of line.
In spite of their claim to want a safe venue, they are not willing to do anything to make it safe
posted on October 18, 2001 12:59:30 PM
The VCR has not worked at all since the day I got it, and becuase I purchased it direct from him, I had no "buyer protection" from eBay.
posted on October 18, 2001 01:01:55 PM
retaliation,for the seller sent him a lemon and skimped on shipping.
you said ups truck? and you paid ups air??
it is ups air to canada distribution centre adn truck to your home town,they cant navigate their plane and land in your backyard??
usps customs brokerage fee is from canadian customs,i am surprised that 43 dollars he charged you does not include this customs fee.usually when you ship ups in this country,the personnel will ask you to declare the item and include customs to expedite clearing thru customs.
anyway,if he shipped usps,you could be slapped with customs duty,it depends on how he declared the item.
anyway,buying off ebay ,you cannot file for insurance which could have insured you for 200 or so dollars.
your seller socked you with a lemon,just waiting to unload on folks like you who buy off ebay.nothing wrong if he is a good dealer,but even good dealer have lemons too.
posted on October 18, 2001 01:18:32 PM
wowwow--The UPS brokerage fee is NOT from Canada Customs. UPS charges a huge fee on all items that come into Canada that they pocket themselves (a minimum of $35). For example I could order a $10 book (or even a $3 one) and if shipped by UPS they would require that I pay them an additional $35 -- not a Canada Customs charge at all.
posted on October 18, 2001 01:19:45 PM
"even good dealers have lemons"
Yes, but GOOD dealers will offer a full refund AND warranty if they happen to sell you a "lemon". The seller in this thread could not be considered "good" by any stretch of the imagination.
posted on October 18, 2001 01:26:46 PM
"you said ups truck? and you paid ups air??
it is ups air to canada distribution centre adn truck to your home town,they cant navigate their plane and land in your backyard??"
Whew!!
UPS = United Parcel Service. They ship via TRUCK (ie on the ground) from point to point. I pick up the package at their point here and pay their graft. An 18 pound package via UPS GROUND cost the seller $16.80.
USPS = United States Postal Service. They ship via AIR (ie on an big shiny thing that is much faster than a truck) from point to point. I pick up the package at the post office and pay no graft. USPS AIR would have cost the seller $43.00.
As per the written arrangement I had with the seller, he would ship via USPS AIR. I sent him $43.00 for that. He shipped via UPS TRUCK (cost him $16.80 and me another $32.00 at pickup)
Get it??? If you are still struggling with this, call UPS.
posted on October 18, 2001 01:50:22 PM
Sorry to hear of your bad situation.
You ran into a bad seller whoe obviously does not stand behind their product. You are very limited in your recourse, as the item was sold to you direct. If you paid by Paypal, Billpoint of via credit card you can attempt a charge back based on the fact that you received an inoperable unit that was not as desribed by the seller. If you paid by money order or cashier's check, you might be stuck.
posted on October 18, 2001 01:59:33 PM
computerboy ... thanks!
I have written off any hopes of getting anything from this seller. I am in Canada and I paid with a money order, so even if I did purchase this through eBay, my protection (as a non US citizen) is very limited. I did contact Canada Post (the issuer of the money order) to inquire about fraud, but they told me that I would have to contact the local police in the seller's area. I think *all* local US police have enough to worry about right now
I am mostly disturbed about eBay's attitude on this. They have been given irrefutable proof that this seller has violated and continues to violate at least two of their policies (selling items that have been banned for sale by Federal Law and misrepresenting the warranty) and possibly a 3rd (fee avoidance, which would be difficult for me to prove).
They really do not care about their buyers, and as a buyer (ex-buyer, that is), this bothers me. I can almost guarantee you that this seller will keep on screwing people and the only way he can be stopped is if eBay "sees the light" that I and the product manufacturer and the law have been shining in their eyes for the past month.
posted on October 18, 2001 02:01:14 PM
"UPS charges a huge fee on all items that come into Canada that they pocket themselves (a minimum of $35). "
A couple years ago I bought something from a Canadian, and he shipped it UPS. A week or so after I received it, I got a call from UPS saying I owed them the $35 customs brokerage fee.
posted on October 18, 2001 02:46:05 PM
Is there any chance that you can contact the manufacturer of this product and/or get them to become a VERO memeber. I can't imagine that they would be happy that such a scum bag is selling their products.
Talk to them and maybe they will be the ones
who can apply the outside legal pressure
needed for ebay to give a dam*.
If he is selling these with warranty and he is not authorized to do so, that is illegal.
Try and contact the company, maybe they will actually give a dam*.
posted on October 18, 2001 02:56:24 PM
UPS brokerage is a subsidiary of UPS,and i have always been under the impression that the fee they collected is mostly for customs plus a small fee for their service.
USPS charged 5.00 for such service too.
tell me it aint so,because customs is customes,what does usps brokerage does if not collecting for canadian customs or us customs.
as for ups truck,i still dont get it-you mean your item was trucked all the way from usa to canada?????????????
ups has a fleet of air planes,they use their planes on week days and loan them out to travel agencies on weekend to cajun,costa rice ,acapoulco etc.
as for paypal,billpoint or cc ,ebay protection,none will work in this case.
first ebay would say it is not purchased on ebay,paypal does not get into content dispute,cc issuer would say you still have the merchandise,you cannot do chargeback if you sit on the merchandise.
this is sadly a he said,she said situation,seller can turn around and said you damaged it,or it was damaged via transit,or you are trying to do a switch a roo.
by the way,UPS offered 100 dollars insurance which is inclued in the shipping fee,can this be the fault of UPS??
posted on October 18, 2001 02:59:05 PM
On the VeRO thing, I have discussed this with the manufacturer. As everything they make now is 100% legal, there is no reason for them to join VeRO. The illegal decks that are being sold were legal until they were banned by the DMCA.
Here's what it says on the manufacturer;s web site:
All VCRs, including the Dual-Deck VCR, are affected by Federal legislation that was passed in October 1998, commonly referred to as the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. One of the effects of this new law requires that all VCRs sold after April 28th, 2000, recognize a type of anticopying signal that prevents consumers from making a usable copy of copy-protected videotapes.
The enforcement of the law is not up to the manufacturer. They have complied by ceasing the manufacture of these units. As a matter of fact, all dual deck VCRs that were returned to them by retailers after April 28, 2000 (to comply with federal law) were "factory refurbished" to remove this feature.
Here's a couple of cuts from the seller's listing (I picked this one at random - he has 19 listed):
GO VIDEO ... DUAL DECK HIFI VCR ... THIS UNIT WAS TURNED ON PRIOR TO 4-28-00 AND YES IT CAN COPY PROTECTED VHS TAPES
REMANUFACTURED TO NEW UNIT STANDARDS. 90 DAY WARRANTY
Something seem a little off here???
as for ups truck,i still dont get it-you mean your item was trucked all the way from usa to canada?
Yes. Hey, it's not that bad, really, I have driven "all the way" from Canada across the USA lots of times.
ups has a fleet of air planes,
Yes, but that would have cost the seller more ... probably about 1/2 of what I paid him. Remember, he's a crook
or you are trying to do a switch a roo
Try to think next time before responding with a suggestion that I am trying to a number on the seller next time, please As a matter of fact, I am not getting any help or good advice from you at all. The unit, like most pieces of expensive electronics, has a stamped serial number that is riveted to the back of the machine. I am not about to start popping rivets and counterfeiting nameplates just for this!! btw, I did offer to return it. That's about the time the seller started ignoring me completely.
[ edited by RB on Oct 18, 2001 03:01 PM ]
[ edited by RB on Oct 18, 2001 03:06 PM ]
posted on October 18, 2001 03:08:06 PM
may be you should stop copying protected vhs tapes??
your only recourse is with ups ,saying that it was damaged in transit
posted on October 18, 2001 03:13:27 PM
wowwow65 ... your syntax and grammar seem awfully familiar, and I did invite the seller to AW to discuss this issue. I wonder ...
I don't know what you mean by "claim check". I haven't made any claim with the shipper. The damage to the unit was not caused by the shipper - I have discussed the problem at length with the GO techs and they tell me the symptoms could not have been caused by rough handling. Rather, they would have been caused by excessive use. I never got to use the unit once. It still sits here, unused and unloved
AW Moderator - would you please issue wowwow65 a warning about this statement: "may be you should stop copying protected vhs tapes??" before this gets out of hand? Thanks ...
posted on October 18, 2001 07:20:35 PM
hello,i am not your seller,i am just a lousy typist.
i do not sell any electronic goods-pc,camera,scanner,vcr.
it would be nice if i have access to them a few years ago,i would have made a lot of money on ebay then??
i seldom have problem with what i sell or the customers whom i serve,yes there are bad apples,but most are good people.
neither do i have any problem with paypal,the high ticket items folks buy from me they MUST have,and they are not grocery or cipro,go figure.
i have bot scanner and camera on ebay and i learned to buy from established retailers like compusa or direct from manufacturer .
posted on October 18, 2001 08:25:35 PM
I'm just going to go from my gut here.
Stealing is a crime whether you have eBay's bogus protection or not.
I don't know whether you paid by check or credit card. If by check and you used Canadian Postal service, perhaps you have recourse with Postal Fraud.
If you paid w/your credit card, and you haven't let your time limit go by, you might be able to do a charge back.
You could notify the police in this person's town.
I've sold off eBay, off Amazon, hell, I've sold things right off my truck, and I don't feel the need to rip people off just because some BigBrother entity isn't looking over my shoulder.
I encourage you to exhaust every recourse before you give up. You paid money for a product and that product wasn't as promised. I hope you have your emails and any other back up documentation.
posted on October 19, 2001 07:04:45 AM
he paid with postal order,and this is not a fraud case because he has thegoods,except it is not working and the seller skimped on shipping.
his gripe is that seller did not follow his instruction of shipping usps air,causing him to pay usps brokerage fee and getting the item by ground service.
second is the item is no good and he is now stuck with it.
there is really not much canadian or us post office can do,he said/she said about a piece of item,and that shipping squabble is not something thrid party can intervene,seller does have the right to choose whatver carrier he wishes.
may be a phone call to him and talk it over and see if something could be work out,say refunding 150 or sending a replacement.
there are many cases like this on ebay,buying electronic equipment,name brand products for less .
the only way to avoid this is to go to a reputable store and buy from them-examine the merchandise,checkout return policy,why do these stores offer such good customer service-very simple-THEY MARKUP THE GOODS ENOUGH TO AFFORD IT.
many of us come to ebay to buy what we think is the same product for less,we must ask ourselves why less??
posted on October 19, 2001 07:11:32 AMseller does have the right to choose whatver carrier he wishes
Give us a break already. You have obviously never bought anything off an auction venue.
I have an idea. I will agree to send you a videotape via express air mail for a shipping cost of $6.50. You send me your $6.50 plus a typewritten letter confirming our deal, and I'll mail you the tape via parcel ground. You will get it, eventually, and it will only cost me 1/3 of what you paid, and what we agreed on.
posted on October 19, 2001 10:24:33 AM
if i pay you air express and you shipped regular air-the tape arrived safe and sound and in timely manner,i may not raise the issue but make a mental note of your business practice.
as for fraud,we have not heard from the seller and none of us except the buyer have seen and examine the item ?
this is why services like paypal said they do not deal with content issue,i dont know what happens if the buyers pay with cc and do a chargeback,what will the cc company said?
have you tried returning the item and get him tos ign for it?
then you can file fraud case as you have returned the defective item.aving buyer and seller in 2 different countries make it more difficult and time consuming?
we all know why we come to shop on ebay looking for something no longer made,hard to find and for less,all these imply a risk factor.
the lesson to be learned here is know your risk and ask if you can stomach it ??
the electronic equipments i use in my business are bot from reputable retailer,in the long run,it costs me less .
posted on October 19, 2001 10:35:27 AM
wowwow65 ... Canada Post has a $5 handling charge for all packages that incur a Customs fee (i.e., charged GST). No comparison with the ripoff by the UPS.
And your posts would be a lot easier to read if you 1) proofed them first, 2) used paragraphs; 3) realized that sentences begin with capital letters; 4) applied spaces after commas.
posted on October 19, 2001 12:10:25 PM
i will have to call ups and ask them>they make it sound like they are doing me a favor collecting for the ups brokerage unit??
when i use a freight forwarder to bring the goods in,hiring a broker to clear customs for me is a separate charge,land delivery from airport to my place is another charge paid to local delivery firm.
so if ups,dhl and fed express is acting as our clearance broker and i know they have offices nearby the customs office,they incur fees maintaining an office and staffing with brokers?
anyway,usps is always cheaper,it just takes longer to deliver.
