posted on May 13, 2002 08:07:58 PM
This post is just to inform people of my experience with Paypal.com. One of my customers suggested me to post here to share with everyone. Thank you for your time to read this.
My business sells computer components and systems online. I decided to use Paypal when customers started requesting it for easy payment. I had heard a few “horror stories” about Paypal but decided if it makes it easier for my customers to pay, I would give it a shot.
My Paypal is verified business account. I used the account for a little over a month and was suddenly put under restricted status for an unknown reason Paypal refuses to reveal to me. To this date, Paypal is holding $14,409.14 of my company’s money from me and has since attempted to transfer over $20,000.00 out of my Bank account (which they deny ever doing, even I had the bank faxed them the statement). I run a very honest business and if Paypal can’t stand to make well over $100,000/year in transaction fees from me by holding onto $14,409.14, then that is their loss. I’ll gladly give that to someone else.
At this point, we had fulfilled all the orders that involved with Paypal account $14,409.14. People suggested us to ask those buyers file charge back and since Paypal is hold the funds. I refused to do so, Paypal will not ruin our company in anyway and I will like to take proper legal steps to resolve this matter with Paypal.
As I said earlier, I run an honest business. I have no charge backs, disputes or complaints. I have outstanding selling record on eBay (perfect feedback) and am verified in any way possible (SquareTrade and ID verify). Below are my documented exchanges with Paypal. None of it is exaggerated; it is just plain, simple truth. Again, this post is just to inform people of Paypal’s lacking customer support department. I have tried to resolve this matter nicely without bringing in my legal department and have done anything and everything I can to settle this matter to no avail. One would think that with this big of an account, they would be more careful and give special attention to it. But I have received no calls or communication of any type from them.
Tomorrow, I will be meeting with my legal council again to get further advice on how to handle this situation. I wish all others good luck in any business they may be doing with Paypal.
And I will all of you updated if I hear anything back from Paypal or my legal council.
May 07, 2002 12:21 PM
Replied to the 2nd Paypal email. Again, I gave them my company number and cell number with email address and time to reach me.
May 07, 2002 02:48 PM
Called Paypal and spoke to Customer Service Representative in Resolution Dept. I was told “there is nothing wrong with the account, just follow the instructions and the Review Dept will get back to you.”
May 07, 2002 04:33 PM
Used the link in the emails again, filled in email and phone number.
May 07, 2002 8:56 AM
Received 1st email from Paypal stating that our business account had been placed under restricted status for the following reason:
“Paypal detected suspicious activity regarding the receipt or withdrawal of funds.”
In this email, it provided us a link on how to restore account access with Case ID number.
May 07, 2002 11:21 AM
Received 2nd email from Paypal our business account was placed on a restricted status for the following reason:
“Your account has been flagged and restricted by our verification system.”
In this email, Paypal asked us to reply with “a valid phone number and the best time for us to reach you.”
May 07, 2002 12:21 PM
I used the link that was provided by Paypal in the 1st email and entered my company number and cell number with email address.
May 07, 2002 12:21 PM
Replied to the 2nd Paypal email. Again, I gave them my company number and cell number with email address and time to reach me.
May 07, 2002 02:48 PM
Called Paypal and spoke to Customer Service Representative in Resolution Dept. I was told “there is nothing wrong with the account, just follow the instructions and the Review Dept will get back to you.”
May 07, 2002 04:33 PM
Used the link in the emails again, filled in email and phone number.
May 07, 2002 06:08 PM
Received 3rd email from Paypal stated that business account was placed under restricted status. No reason given this time.
In this email it provided us the same link on how to restore account access with no Case ID number.
May 07, 2002 07:23 PM
Used the link provided in the 3rd email: filled in email, phone number and my cell phone number. In addition to that, I also gave them my company name, number, address and Tax ID for verification,
May 07, 2002 8:30 PM
Reply the 2nd email Paypal sent again, with our email, phone number and my cell phone number. In addition to that, I also give them My company name, number, address and Tax ID for verification… thought it would help.
May 07, 2002 10:56 PM
Replied to the link again: filled in email, phone number and my cell phone number. In addition to that, I also give them my company name and Tax ID for verification again.
May 08, 2002 11:30 AM
Called Paypal, spoke to Customer Service Rep named “Laurie” in Resolution Dept, was told the account is under multiple restrictions now and we need to fax following document over: a copy of my driver license, current bank statement from a bank associated with this Paypal account and a current bill to address listed under Paypal.
The Problem is that she was unable provide us a “Paypal Fax Cover Sheet” because our account is under multiple restriction, so she gave us a fax number with different case ID number to use. The thing about the Fax Cover Sheet: this document really speeds things along. There is a set of barcodes on it that allows Paypal to scan and automatically attach the faxed documents to whatever file it is associated to. Since I don’t have a Fax Cover Sheet, the receiving department would have to manually locate the file it is associated to and manually log everything in. Laurie assured me that even though we didn’t have a Fax Cover Sheet, all faxes would be logged in within 24 hours and to call back in that time.
May 08, 2002 02:52 PM
Got the following Documents Notarized for authenticity and Fax over to Paypal under Supervision of the Notary Public at their location:
1. A copy of my valid California Driver’s License
2. Most current back statement associated with this Paypal account
3. A letter from the bank with bank contact information verifying the account information
4. FedEx bill to current address for this account as listed under Paypal
5. Notarized document stating that all above documents faxed are official and fax transmission was done under supervision of the Notary Public at their location
Transmission Verification Report shown Fax complete to 402-xxx-xxxx 14:50 on 05-08-02
May 08, 2002 4:31 PM
Used the link to inform Paypal that the fax was sent. Send two more emails Paypal to inform them about the fax.
May 09, 2002 2:10 PM
Used the Link to inform Paypal about the fax.
May 09, 2002 9:45 PM
Received no communication from Paypal at all. Faxed the entire documents 2nd time in our location, used the link and email to inform Paypal about the Fax.
May 10, 2002 12:12 PM
Called Paypal and spoke to “Laurie” in the Resolution Dept. I was told they NEVER received the faxed. They even check the fax room and turned up with nothing. I told them that it was been 2 days since my first fax and about 15 hours since my second fax. Faxes are supposed to be logged in WITHIN 24 hours, with or without a Fax Cover Sheet. I told them I would fax it again. I informed them that I was very upset at their attempt to reverse transactions from my Bank and asked them why and under what circumstances validate this action. They denied any reverse transactions attempt with our Bank and said that they would never do that. By this time, I have documented proof of their attempt with their name, PAYPAL, clearly printed in big, bold letters next to the words “TRANSACTION REVERSAL.”
May 10, 2002 12:29 PM
Faxed the entire documents 3rd time in our location and used the link to inform Paypal about the Fax.
May 10, 2002 2:12 PM
Called Paypal to make sure they got the faxes. I Spoke to Supervisor in the Resolution Dept and was told they will not go in to the fax room to check if they receive the fax or not… we would have to wait 1-3 days before they can do anything about it. Spoke to “Laurie” again and she told me that she would keep me posted and let me know if anything happened. Whether or not they got the faxes, she would email me first thing Monday morning and let me know what the current status of the account is. There should be an update by then, she said, because the fax receiving dept works on weekends. She is by far the most helpful and friendly of any Paypal Customer Reps I have talked to.
May 10, 2002 3:35 PM
Did a research on the website about Paypal company. Consider taking the legal step to resolve this.
May 13, 2002 11:50 AM
After checking my email and seeing nothing from Laurie or Paypal in general, I called Paypal and spoke to “Deb” in the Resolution Dept. She checked my account and said that no faxes were logged in and asked that I call back in two days. I told her that I was getting a little impatient. Faxes are supposed to be logged in WITHIN 24 hours and I had sent the first fax in 5 days ago. I asked her why it was taking so long especially if the fax receiving dept works weekends. She hesitated a little and said that that was not always the case and that most weekends, they don’t work. I was also told that I had not given enough time for the Appeals Dept to review the fax and reinstate our account. I told her that I didn’t care about the Appeals Dept; I just wanted to make sure that they have our faxes. She checked the account status again and told me that a request was put in last week to find our “fax” and to log it into their system, but the request remained open, which means nobody in the fax receiving department has even looked at the request yet. She said all I could do now was to just wait another day or two and check back.
May 13, 2002 08:04 PM
Posted on auctionwatch.com message board
posted on May 13, 2002 11:53:26 PM
Unfortunately, I am in the same "holding pattern" with PayPal...with the same canned responses and the same customer service runaround. I have been a verified Premier user for two years. I don't do the volume of business that you do but the end result is the same. I can't access MY money, even though I have provided all of the documentation requested..and my customers continue to pay me with PayPal, the PayPal logos continue to be placed on my new auctions (which I am unable to stop) and I am unable to close the account. This is beginning to feel like THEFT. I have always been a proponent of PayPal but am quickly losing any positive feeling for them. Snuggle
posted on May 14, 2002 04:54:42 AM
one of the perils of using paypal they should really have this listed in their TOS "that at any one point an account can be frozen for no reason and you may have to wait months to receive your money back whilst we gain interest on said funds."
Good luck in getting your money back will take time .
You know, I find your story hard to believe, particularly coming from someone who just joined AuctionWatch on the 13th of this month. Honestly, I more suspect a tale of horror created and posted by a PayPal competitor, or a story developed by someone who a minor charge back, and a major attitude. The fact that anyone, without any proof can come to these boards and post any negative allegations, with no proof of such, makes me highly distrust such an exposé.
Your “documented exchanges with PayPal are not “documented,” but merely typed out statements which anyone could have concocted. By adding names of those you spoke with, could be either be persons any unhappy user might have spoken with, or simply make up names (few who know all the names of PayPal employees). Even by adding dates, addresses, there is no way to truly prove such was to or from anyone on such a board as this, as all such info can be fabricated by any disgruntled person, or competitor.
I am sure others who have had minor problems with PayPal, will back your slander as authentic, but personally, I just can’t buy it.
[ edited by JWPC on May 14, 2002 05:27 AM ]
posted on May 14, 2002 05:33:29 AM
JWPC dont like it dont read it.....take a look on the google.com and do a search you will find this happens all the time....... the only REASON i ended up here was because i had a similar problem.
posted on May 14, 2002 06:53:17 AM
Just an FYI, you need to post to the BUYER BEWARE message board. A representative from PayPal reads and posts to that board and might be able to help you.
Most of the stories I hear about PayPal shutting accounts down have been from breaking one of PayPal's TOS. You said that PayPal froze your account because of large amounts of money being withdrawn from the account, which could mean that you exceeded your spending limit in a 24 hour period.
If you have legal counsel, stop dealing directly with PayPal and have your lawyer intervene for you. If I got the run around once and had as much money frozen as you say you have, my lawyer would have been on the phone with them immediately. I wouldn't have been dealing with low level employees who can only give the answers they've been told to give.
We have signs from God because some of us are too stupid to figure things out for ourselves.
I would encourage you to cut and paste your original post to OTWA.com in the eBay Community Discussion Forum.
Several daily users of that board are members of the PayPal Customer Advisory Committee and can hopefully cut through the customer disservice you are receiving and expedite a quick resolution.
Sorry this has happened to you. I think we all accept that problems arise. It is the inability to get timely assistance in resolution that is so frustrating.
Here you will find the correct portion of the User Agreement regarding restricted accounts-
PayPal, at its sole discretion, also reserves the right to restrict withdrawals from an account for any one of the events listed below. If the dispute covers only a specific transaction, we will only restrict funds related to that particular transaction. If your account is restricted, you will be notified by e-mail and requested to provide information relevant to your account. PayPal will investigate the matter promptly. If the investigation is in your favor, we will unrestrict your account. If the investigation is not in your favor, PayPal may return funds to the sender and unrestrict the remainder of your account, continue the restriction for up to 180 days as to funds necessary to protect PayPal against the risk of reversals, or may close your account by giving you notice and mailing a check for any funds in your account (minus funds that are in dispute) to the address that you have provided. If you are later determined to be entitled to the funds in dispute, PayPal will make an additional payment of those funds to you. Any of the following events may lead to a restriction of your account:
Reports of unauthorized or unusual credit card use associated with the account including, but not limited to, notice by the card issuing bank;
Reports of unauthorized or unusual bank account use associated with the account;
Complaints received regarding non-shipment of merchandise, non-delivery of services, merchandise not as described, or problems with merchandise shipped;
Initiation by a buyer of a reversal process through the buyer's issuing bank without first pursuing the Buyer Complaint process described below;
Receipt of potentially fraudulent funds;
Excessive disputes or reversals, or attempts to "double dip" by receiving funds in a dispute both from PayPal and through a reversal or a refund from the seller;
Refusal to cooperate in an investigation or provide confirmation of identity when requested;
Initiation of transactions considered to be cash advances or assisting in cash advances;
Sending unsolicited email or posting referral links on websites where they are not permitted;
Opening multiple Personal accounts;
The account has been used in or to facilitate fraudulent activity;
Violations of this User Agreement;
Name on the bank account associated with the PayPal account does not match the name on the PayPal account;
Return of an incoming Electronic Funds Transfer for insufficient funds in the bank account, incorrect bank routing number, or incorrect bank account number;
Use of an anonymizing proxy;
Participating in prohibited transactions and activities, including but not limited to multi-level marketing programs, gifting clubs and other pyramid schemes, and listing items for sale that have a delayed delivery date of 20 days or more after the transaction list, and other activities that are prohibited in Part II of this Agreement;
Reports from credit agencies of a high level of risk;
Receipt by PayPal of excessive complaints regarding your account, business or service; and/or
Logging in from a country not included on PayPal's permitted countries list.
PayPal will use reasonable efforts to investigate accounts that are subject to a restriction and to reach a final decision on the restriction promptly.
I won’t retaliate against your slander, but I do want to address some of the things you mentioned in your post and reiterate what I said in my original post:
1. “You know, I find your story hard to believe, particularly coming from someone who just joined AuctionWatch on the 13th of this month.” As I said in the original post, I was told by one of my customers to join AuctionWatch Community Discussion to share my own experience with Paypal.com after what had happened.
2. “… all such info can be fabricated by any disgruntled person, or competitor.” Just like eBay, Paypal has no real competitors that can come close to them at this point.
3. “Your “documented exchanges with Paypal are not “documented,” but merely typed out statements which anyone could have concocted…” The fact is, I’ve been through a lawsuit before and know that it is very important to take notes on all the actions made by both parties. In that case, my hand-written notes was enough for me to win the lawsuit for the simple fact that the other party had no notes at all. So no matter how ineffective you believe my notes to be, they do work.
4. Like I said on the original post, all legal documents required were notarized, and was faxed under supervision of the Notary Public at their location. Transmission Verification Report shown Fax complete to 402-xxx-xxxx 14:50 on 05-08-02
5. I am not here to find any support or ask other people to join me filing the lawsuit, just to share my personal experience with paypal.com even know I took proper steps try to resolve this matter with Paypal. And what I so called proper steps might help me win the case.
Perhaps you are perturbed by the fact that I seem so calm about all of this. The fact is, I am not afraid that I won’t be able to retrieve the money in my Paypal account because all my transactions between my customers and myself done through Paypal were done under Paypal policy. I have tons happy customer to back us up and that’s all I care about. If there is a chance of an upcoming lawsuit, customer satisfaction is my best weapon against Paypal.
I don’t know what would convince you that my company actually does exist. If you want, I could post a screenshot of my Paypal account information and restriction page which includes the amount of money they withholding from me. Would that make you happy?
Ohmslucy:
Thank you for the advice. [email protected] did reply my post on the other message board and he said he has directed my account information to the account management team so we can hopefully get this resolved as soon as possible.
Here are the updates:
May 14, 2002 11:45 AM
Called Paypal again and spoke to a Customer Representative in the Resolutions Department. She said the fax was received and logged into their system yesterday, May 13th. She couldn’t tell me why it took so long but confirms that regardless of manual or automatic login, all fax transmissions should be logged in within 24 hours. She said that she would escalate the file to the Appeals Department and the investigation could take anywhere from 2 or 3 days to over 5 days.
posted on May 14, 2002 05:00:33 PM
bluebb -- if you want to make your documentation public, you could use a CGI script like "Greymatter" to post news items on your web site. It will automatically date and time stamp your entries.
I responded earlier today about your issue. I can also post the reason for the restriction if it helps clarify the issue for other readers of the forum (with your permission).
posted on May 15, 2002 11:20:43 AM
My suggestion is to file your complaint with Jacoby & Meyers Lawfirm. They are currently filing a class action lawsuit against PayPal for the unethical business practices that you have stated.
WEBSITE: www.jacobylawyers.com
There you will find info and a form to fill out regarding your complaint with PayPal (scroll all the way down). They will contact you shortly. I have filed a complaint as well since PayPal did the same thing to me. I highly encourage EVERYONE who uses PayPal right now to reconsider using their services and just get a merchant account. The risk is simply NOT worth it.
OTHER WEBSITES TO CHECK OUT:
www.paypalwarning.com
posted on May 15, 2002 11:26:35 AM
I never keep more in PayPal than what will cover my monthly eBay fees. I have the ATM card through them and use it as a charge card against my balance. My account rarely goes above $100, which is all I'm willing to lose in any venture.
I keep PayPal because it is incredibly convenient, but I also realize that right now it's on shaky ground and watch my account balance accordingly.
We have signs from God because some of us are too stupid to figure things out for ourselves.
posted on May 15, 2002 12:34:13 PM
After reading the posts on the "paypalwarning Wall of Shame" site, it is obvious that many of the cited problems were directly related to the member's failure to read and understand PayPal's terms. http://cinderellie.digitalrice.com/page03.htm to read a brief analysis of the most recent stories.
"Take the "PayPalwarning" site with a grain of salt. Its full of misinformation, outdated information and 100% full of unverified stories. Better to see what eBay supports and condones.
eBay has locked the following post at the top of their discussion board AND featured it on the right hand sidebar:
I think it's better to go with what eBay thinks is a good analysis of payment methods, rather than some dubious site where the owner refuses to reveal their identity."
posted on May 15, 2002 08:18:37 PM
I never keep a penny in my PayPal account. The bank account linked to paypal doesn't have a penny in it eiether. This way, if PayPal feels like screwing me, or I get my account hacked, I'm ok... Or atleast safer in my opinion. The debit card on file with PayPal also links to my zero-balance bank account.
posted on May 16, 2002 01:49:10 AM
I agree with netwrx. I have less than
$30 in my account at any time. As soon
as a payment arrives, I transfer it to
my checking account which doesn't earn
interest and is used only for paying bills
(move money in, write check, balance as
close to zero as possible). I refuse to
link a CC or debit card to PayPal. I only
have the $30 or so in there just in case I
find a small (cheap) item I want. So the
most PayPal could get me for is that $30,
but to be honest the only times I've had
contact with them have been pleasant and
they actually solved my problems...
Z
---
"Cannot say. Saying, I would know. Do not
know, so cannot say". -- Zathras (Babylon 5)
posted on May 16, 2002 03:50:34 AM
How about it Blue...? Paypal person said: "I responded earlier today about your issue. I can also post the reason for the restriction if it helps clarify the issue for other readers of the forum (with your permission)." What now, Blue...????
posted on May 16, 2002 07:28:35 AM
All of this sounds very weird to me. I have been using P/P since it inception & have never had a single problem. I have their ATM card & use it for all business related expenses. Before they came out with the card, I would transfer balances to my business checking acct. Now I leave my money in the P/P acct. I use it for postage, for UPS, etc. Over the past 2 yrs. I have ran several thousands of $$ through P/P without any problems.
posted on May 16, 2002 08:26:15 AM
Same here. I use my ATM card for postage and at Office Max for packing supplies. If I have enough in there, I use it for dinner out with my husband.
Without fail, whenever I hear someone complain that PayPal froze their accounts, it has been through some infraction on the user's part.
If people want t complain, then complain about PayPal's terms. Some of them are so ambiguous that they are a joke.
Reports of unauthorized or unusual credit card use associated with the account including, but not limited to, notice by the card issuing bank, or Reports of unauthorized or unusual bank account use associated with the account. Define "unusual." My real credit card issuers call me if something gets charged to my account that is outside my usual spending pattern. Bought a 62" TV last August and Master Card called and wanted to know if it was me. It was. Thank you for calling. They did not freeze my account because of it.
Complaints received regarding non-shipment of merchandise, non-delivery of services, merchandise not as described, or problems with merchandise shipped. Why freeze the entire account? Why not freeze the funds in question, unless you have a cut off number that identifies a person who is only selling for the purpose of fraud. Five unique users gets your account frozen. I can understand why PP wants to protect themselves here, because what if the account owner clears the money out before they can freeze it and all their transactions have been fraudulent.
Initiation by a buyer of a reversal process through the buyer's issuing bank without first pursuing the Buyer Complaint process described below. So, anyone who is a rip-off artist can screw you over by demanding their money back. All they have to do is claim you've ripped them off?
Excessive disputes or reversals, or attempts to "double dip" by receiving funds in a dispute both from PayPal and through a reversal or a refund from the seller. Again, define "excessive." How many reversals before PayPal shuts you done? Three, four, six, ten...more? Or would it just take one or two?
Receipt by PayPal of excessive complaints regarding your account, business or service. There's that "excessive" word again. How many is too many?
Most of the other terms are reasonable, but I could have one person, for the sole intent of harassing me, buy two things from me and pay through PayPal and if they demand a charge back I have no way of knowing until my funds are frozen if two was PayPal's magic number.
It's not a question of why your account gets frozen, with terms like these it's a question of who's next.
We have signs from God because some of us are too stupid to figure things out for ourselves.
[ edited by afallenangel on May 16, 2002 08:27 AM ]
posted on May 16, 2002 08:56:31 AM
I do not use paypal and did have a problem with them......however I have somewhat chilled out since then however the one main thing they do is when there is a problem they FREEZE the complete account.....happened to me i had 2400 frozen for 3 months.
I agree most of the horror stories there is normally alot more to it then paypal simply freezing up an account and holding money for a long time.....
there was one guy who spent $330k of hiw own money in a lawsuit and lost !!!
posted on May 16, 2002 09:11:54 AM
I'm still interested in knowing why several faxes sent to Paypal were apparently not received (a common complaint) and why Paypal denied reversing transactions, contradicting the bank's own report. How about 'dem apples?
Not receiving faxes is not very common. In addition, many of the times when a comment is made about us not receiving the faxes, I do check the account. Most of the time faxes have been received, but the information is not complete/accurate. We do send an email to the user advising that the information must be submitted again, or where the discrepancy is in what we requested.
.
