posted on July 22, 2002 02:59:57 PM new
I purchased an antique bowl from an eBay seller in England. The bowl has those protruding flowers and foliage on it. The seller described the bowl as being "offered in very good condition."
What I received is a bowl encrusted in layers of dirt and grime. Many of the flower petals are broken off, and done so long ago the dirt covers the white porcelain. Other flowers petals have small visible chips. I do not consider the bowl to be in "good condition." In fact, the bowl is so filthy it is disgusting to even touch it.
I contacted the seller, with no reply as of yet, demanding my money back in full.
Here is my question. I looked in Paypal and it appears my only protection there is if the seller never shipped the bowl. If the seller doesn't refund my money should I do a chargeback?
And while I am posting to this forum, why do sellers not clean their porcelain and glass? Most sellers clean their antique porcelain and glass (as I do) because you get better photos, thus more bids, and the buyers want to receive pretty clean dishes, not germ encrusted disgusting dishes. I don't understand why some sellers are so lazy that they don't clean the filth off. And that stupid excuse of they are afraid they will damage the merchandise. That is a hokey excuse, use some 409 on it like everyone else.
[edited for spelling}
[ edited by hotcupoftea on Jul 22, 2002 03:01 PM ]
posted on July 22, 2002 08:19:23 PM new
I never sell dirty glassware. In fact my husband washes all pieces with anitbacterial soap. He hates germs. If it breaks when he washes it well then it wasn't fit for selling in the first place. If a seller fears that the object will break on washing then it isn't fit for selling.
Did he have a picture of the actual piece in his auction?
If it is as bad as you say and the buyer never contacts you send it back COD
posted on July 22, 2002 08:51:34 PM new
How do I insert a photo? I sure would love to insert a photo or two to show how disgusting this piece is.
I heard back from the seller. He asked for photos of all of the chips. I have eleven photos, and of course some photos show multiple chips. And the photos show how filthy the piece is.
And the seller wants me to send it back to him in England. He also claims he didn't charge me sufficient postage and he is out money. This request makes no sense to me. The piece has no value, even if cleaned, because there is too much damage. Here is what he wrote:
"HI,yes please kindly send images ,and willcertainly consider a refund ,the only problem being that i undercharged you on the shipping ,andif you were to return the item i would at least expect to repay the same amount which i initially charged you, which was $15.00 dollars ,if you check the delivery note the actual delivery charge was 30.00 u.k pounds,which isequivalent to $47.15 u.s dollars ,which meansthat you actually got the pot for $8.00 dollars ,if you are unhappy then please return the item for a complete refund regards roy,ANCIENT ARTS."
Ok, I've been on eBay since 1998. I buy a lot. I sell. This item is the most disgusting thing I've received from a seller with respect to antique porcelain or glass.
posted on July 22, 2002 09:24:25 PM new
Thanks Kiara.
It was hard picking which two photos to use. Keep in mind these two photos are representative of the entire bowl. The inside - oh yuck - like the seller fished it out of a cess pool.
posted on July 22, 2002 09:41:35 PM new
Kiara, the photos are gone from the auction page except for one and I don't remember the quality of the missing photos. I think the photos were dark and I did not right click, download and pop the photos into my photo software to zoom in like I normally do when the photos on the auction page are dark.
The remaining photo shows the bowl at a distance and I can't see any dirt or chips. I just downloaded it and zoomed in and I still can't see the dirt and chips, I think because the photo was taken too far away from the bowl, too far to zoom.
posted on July 22, 2002 09:54:04 PM new
His response that he undercharged you on the shipping certainly isn't your fault. But you will have to work that out with him.
What is his feedback like? Does he list lots of items at one time? Maybe he just doesn't care or have the time to clean everything. Or maybe he likes to leave things as he finds them.
These type of floral pieces seem to get damaged quite easily if not taken care of. Whenever I purchase them for my shop I have to look so carefully at them as I find that some of the leaves, etc. have been broken off. Some people touch them up with paint so I always go over them with a glass.
"offered in very good condition"? This isn't even worthy of a bad swap meet piece, is it?
The seller had over 100 listings in the past 30 days, a variety of antique items ranging from oil paintings to porcelain. The feedback is all positive, though strangely the feedback is less than 65, which might indicate many buyers don't leave any feedback at all. He has been selling on eBay since February of this year.
I emailed him back, stated that I want a full refund, that how much the shipping cost him doesn't affect me. I said that if he wants me to ship the bowl back, it will cost another $28.00, plus yet another $25.00 for my time to take it to the post office. And I attached all eleven of the photos I took.
If he doesn't agree to my terms I will initiate a charge back. Does Paypal have a rule that I have to go through them first, or can I just call my credit card company? In all of my years on eBay I've only done one chargeback, and that seller was NARUed by eBay shortly after the credit card company refunded my money, I think due to the seller taking buyers' funds and not shipping the merchandise.
posted on July 22, 2002 10:30:32 PM new
Hotcupoftea,
I hate to sound pessimistic, but from what you've told us, I don't think you are going to arrive at a mutually satisfactory resolution with this seller. In the first place, if he represented the condition of the item in your pictures as "very good", then he has defrauded you in the strict since of the word. Even a more liberal view would show deliberate misreprentation, or stupidity on his part. To top it off, he's now bringing up the part about undercharging you for shipping. He's setting you up for a refund of $8.00 after you pay to return it to him. You're going to need a hammer to get his attention, and I can only see a chargeback as your hammer. I hope I'm wrong, but his email to you has a tone that would worry me.
The light at the end of the tunnel will turn out to be an oncoming train.
posted on July 22, 2002 10:33:37 PM new
$25.00 for your time to take it to the post office? If he is already complaining about the postage fee I highly doubt he will go for that.
I think you have to go directly through PayPal to do the chargeback or else they can just freeze your account? It must be on their site or someone may know for sure tomorrow. I have never done a chargeback so I don't know.
posted on July 22, 2002 10:38:29 PM new
Regarding sellers who don't clean their merchandise, in my area sellers who are like that and who have booths in the antique malls have gone out of business. I am referring to the malls where the owners don't exert tight control over the quality of the vendors' merchandise and how the merchandise is displayed. The malls that have vendors who display dirty and flawed merchandise just can't stay in business. Whereas the malls with good management, the ones with attractive booths, clean and quality merchandise, those malls are always crowded with shoppers.
The same principle applies to eBay sellers. If a buyer receives an item that is filthy, the buyer is going to conclude that the seller must live in filthy conditions and won't go back and bid again, won't want anything to do with a seller who will sell dirty merchandise. Eventually that seller will be complaining about a lack of bids on their auctions and will never understand why.
posted on July 22, 2002 10:42:13 PM new
It kinda goes to show that some items ( I know JACKSWEBB hates that term ) are not suited for online auctions and maybe should be purchased in person at an antique store. Auctions of any kind involve an element of risk.
posted on July 22, 2002 10:43:18 PM new
Yuck is right. Now remember his name is Ancient Art, maybe he thinks this object is Ancient and thought being so old even with the chips it was in good condition.
I think he should do the right thing, refund your money, but forget about sending it back. It isn't worth it. I have thrown away better looking objects than that.
posted on July 22, 2002 10:43:26 PM new
sparkz and kiara,
Thank you. I looked at Paypal's regs this afternoon and all I could find was a form to fill out if the seller never shipped the merchandise. I could not find anything for receiving merchandise not as described.
I agree with aparkz, I doubt if the seller will reach agreement with me.
The $25 for my time, it is because I live rurally and the post office is about 15 miles away. That is not 15 miles as the crow flies, but 15 miles on windy rural roads. To package the bowl and take it to the post office would consume more than one hour of my time.
posted on July 23, 2002 12:48:16 AM new
Paypal doesn't get involved in "quality of merchandise" disputes. To do a chargeback, you'll have to go through your credit card company.
[ edited by KarenMx on Jul 23, 2002 12:53 AM ]
posted on July 23, 2002 05:06:45 AM newplease return the item for a complete refund regards roy,ANCIENT ARTS
that's how, hotcup!
disclaimer:
I didn't check the auction and I don't know antiques.
sidebar:I thought I remembered several posters stating that they would prefer if an uneducated seller not clean the item because they would be likely to damage it? was that just silver/brass etc?
ennyhoo...
regardless of the dirt and ook, I have no idea how a piece with all of those chips could be described as offered in very good condition!
I have to agree that you will probably not meet a mutually agreeable solution if he wants the item back! Hopefully with all of your communication he will come to his senses and trust your evaluation of the item being worthless.
story:
Bidder won clothing from me and claimed it was stained. They didn't sound like a nut, just wanted to know how to proceed. I don't need them to ship stained clothing back, I sent a refund and an apology, as well as thanked them for bringing it to my attention. IF the item was really damaged, I'm glad they didn't toss me a neg!
in your case:
What a waste of time for you ~ having to clean the ooky thing and then safely pack it up!
mebbe he did all this just to get you to polish it up for him?
what is his feedback profile like?
many repeat or returning bidders?
posted on July 23, 2002 05:57:33 AM new
You should not buy any item that does not show at least two clear closeup photos. You should e-mail sellers asking specifically if the item has any chips, cracks, tears, stains, smells from smoke etc. Sellers who can't take the time to clean an item(assuming no patina etc.) are lowlifes. The worst thing is to get a damaged item and then get stuck with having paid for shipping both ways on the return, particularly when the shipping is as much as the cost of the item itself.
posted on July 23, 2002 06:07:36 AM new
Initiate a chargeback with your credit card. It's a simple procedure(read the back of your charge card statement-some insist on a written complaint, others will accept a phone call)and since it's YOUR credit card company, they will usually bend over backward to see things your way.
posted on July 23, 2002 06:12:15 AM new
Paypal will not get involved in any dispute involving the quality of an item. The seller must merely prove that they shipped the item to you (the seller needs signature delivery confirmation). Yes, that does mean that if you bought a diamond and got sent a CZ, Paypal would rule against you in a complaint. However, I don't believe the same rules apply to foreign purchases. I don't think Paypal will accept any proof that an item was shipped from another country. Therefore, make your complaint. Paypal should rule in your favor and take the money back from the seller.
If Paypal rules against you in the complaint, Paypal can not interfere with your right to do a chargeback through your credit card. However, I will warn you that they will close your account and you will never be able to use it again. If you still want to do it, be sure to change your email address on your Paypal account so that if you sell, no one can send money to the account since you won't be able to access it. Also, remove any funds in the acct and run it empty until they close it. From personal experience, it will take about 4-5 months before they close your acct. This presumes that you file a complaint with them before doing the chargeback. If you don't file a complaint first, they will close your acct immediately. Tammy
posted on July 23, 2002 06:24:22 AM new
I forgot to add that even if Paypal rules in your favor, it does not mean you will get your money back. You will only get your money back if the seller has money in his acct to give you. You have the advantage in that I don't believe this person put up the auction specifically to defraud you. Those who want to defraud, will put up tons of higher prices auctions, collect the money, then transfer it and close their acct. So, try the Paypal complaint. You can still charge back if you are not satisfied. Tammy
posted on July 23, 2002 08:42:23 AM new
First, you may have the pics in your temp file on your hard drive. Your computer saves every single picture you look at.
I would be embarrassed to ship anything that was dirty. Sometimes I get anxious to list something and don't clean it as well as I would like before I take pictures but I always state that it will arrive in very clean/polished condition and it does.
posted on July 23, 2002 09:19:22 AM new
The dirt doesn't seem to be a problem, you said "use 409 like everybody else." Why not just use 409 like everybody else?
The broken petals doesn't mean it is not in "good condition." The official term "Good Condition" as used in many hobbies including baseball cards actually describes something which I consider below average condtion, or basically what is considered a "filler."
When looking at listings, look for specific words, ie. perfect; no chips; no cracks; sharp corners etc.
I feel you should eat the loss. I can't find the seller at fault for your assumptions.
posted on July 23, 2002 09:35:59 AM new
The item was offered in "very good condition". In your opinion does the item match the seller's "very good condition"?
As I remember it, Paypal protections don't apply to international sales. I could remember it incorrectly.
posted on July 23, 2002 10:03:01 AM new
I have had several silver flatware purchases arrive covered with dried food and other gook. This is so totally disgusting, that I can't imagine anyone doing it. A little warm water, ivory soap and a drop of ammonia would do wonder. How can anyone judge condition on a filthy item?
posted on July 23, 2002 10:18:08 AM new
quickdraw29, when selling in the china and glassware categories items like this should not be described as "very good condition".
This item may be "fair to poor" from the looks of the pics that are posted. Is this the only item of this kind available in the entire world? Is it extremely rare? Then some damage is acceptable but still it should be noted.
Yes, buyers should e-mail before bidding if they aren't sure about the actual condition but sellers who hide behind descriptions like this without disclosing damage and then dispute shipping charges just make it bad for all buyers and sellers on the internet.
This seller probably realizes that it would be more trouble to return it and who knows how many others he has done this to?
posted on July 23, 2002 10:35:44 AM new
The one thing missing in yoir description, is how old was this bowl supposed to be? If it is really old,like 200 yrs, then the description could be correct for the age. As long as it doesn't say mint or perfect condition, then the description is within normal antique language. As far as cleaning, that is probably the way he purchased it. Many atique dealers will not clean any piece. In some cases, it ruins the value.
If it breaks when he washes it well then it wasn't fit for selling in the first place. If a seller fears that the object will break on washing then it isn't fit for selling.
) are not suited for online auctions and maybe should be purchased in person at an antique store. Auctions of any kind involve an element of risk.
