posted on February 9, 2005 06:08:34 PM
I would appreciate any words of wisdom on this situation. UK buyer makes $307.00 purchase 1/6. Pays with PayPal on 1/18. Parcel arrived today and buyer writes me that he won't accept parcel because I disclosed the value and the duty is very steep. Asks me to suggest a course of action because in 7 days the parcel is being returned with additional expenses to me. I can only guess how badly this will turn out. (Further, his feedback was stellar at the time of our transaction, but he now has two very recent purchases and he is plain vulgar in responses to unhappy sellers.) My primary question, can he do a chargeback on the simple basis that he doesn't want to pay the duty? Thank you for any words of wisdom (other than take a money order next time)?
posted on February 9, 2005 06:12:47 PM
With paypal, they can do a chargeback outside of the country for any reason - My advice is for larger transactions overseas, don't take paypal. You'll probably be out shipping charges, but at least you will get the merchandise back. Too bad they did not pay on 1/6, then 30 days would have passed.
One suggestion - I've had international packages returned before, and there is no expense. I've had the post office reship it for free (as long as the address was the same, but not sure if they will reship a rejected package) - Perhaps you can work something out to reship and "restate" value. It's your call on that, I know people feel strongly about stating value on items.
"It is better to have none than to have some, but if you must have some, it is better to have few than to have many" - Ronald Reagan
posted on February 9, 2005 06:27:04 PM
You know I say over & over NOT to accept PayPal for International transactions, & everybody pooh-poohs this and relate glowing happiness with PP & overseas -- UNTIL ya get KICKED in DA BUTT for $300 buckeroos!
HE CAN GET HIS MOOLA BACK FROM PAYPAL SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU SHIPPED OUTSIDE THE USA AND ARE THUS NOT COVERED UNDER THE SPP!
Always, with PayPal, one must ascertain one's RISK TOLERANCE before acceptance...
"Who could have possibly envisioned an erection — an election in Iraq at this point in history?" Prez.Jim Beam, at the White House, Washington, D.C., Jan. 10, 2005
posted on February 9, 2005 07:17:49 PM
Actually, he doesn't even have to return it to you. He can do a chargeback for the purchase price + shipping, pay the duty, and keep the item. He has the item for only the cost of duty, plus the excess left over that he screwed you out of and you are left holding the bag with no money or item. If you accept Paypal for international transactions, you need to be prepared to accept the loss when a customer decides he wants a freebie.
A $75.00 solid state device will always blow first to protect a 25 cent fuse ~ Murphy's Law
posted on February 9, 2005 09:54:20 PMhe won't accept parcel because I disclosed the value and the duty is very steep
But you have the moral victory. You sacrificed your dollars and a possible return customer in order to ensure that the British government could use your sale to grab some more money from your customers pocket. Doesn't it make you just tingle with pride.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on February 10, 2005 04:29:09 AM
I'm another one who doesn't accept PayPal internationally. PP only accepts US Confirmed Addresses for me, and it has reduced my headaches tremendously. All international queries are answered with boilerplate that includes the following 4 requirements to be allowed to bid:
1. You agree that you are responsible for all duties, customs, brokerage, etc. fees that are charged by the shipper or government
2. You agree that we will accurately and honestly state the value and contents of the package on the customs invoice
3. You agree that you will accept delivery of the item when it arrives
4. Payment will be either via a USD denominated BidPay payment or a wire transfer. Wire transfers will cost an additional $15 to cover our bank costs; there are no BidPay fees due to us (although BidPay may charge you directly).
Some people balk at this, and they don't have to bid on my items. I am going to begin using this with Canada also.
posted on February 10, 2005 07:47:47 AM
This is a prime reason to never, ever accept paypal for overseas sales. Bidpay only!!!!
This idiot should of looked up what their tax would come to before bidding. Be sure to put this lime sucking Ahole on your blocked bidders list and block their Email also after this is over.
The U.K. does have some steep taxes but that should not be your problem. Since this clown wants to play games I'm afraid they have you by the throat via paypal.
Think of this as a lesson learned and move on. Just tell them that you will no longer sell to the U.K. if this is the kind of behavior you can expect from them.
Do not give in to this blackmailer by offering some sort of discount.
posted on February 10, 2005 09:19:57 AM
colseng, if what sparkz said is a very plausible reality, I might offer to refund some/half the duty tax (though I have no idea what $$ amount we are talking here), but at least you wont be out on everything, unless it equals or is close to the amount of the tax. Thats my idea anyway...perhaps salvage something for yourself out of the worst possible situation. It doesnt seem you knew what you were getting into by taking paypal on these transactions? Did the buyer specifically ask you to lie on the customs form and you refused? Or was there no mention of that and you just filled out the form as required?
fenix your assuming he is tingling with morality just because he followed international postal customs or laws?? Wow! Must be wonderful to have no fear of ever getting caught at how many 'gifts' youre sending overseas daily to make such a snide and presumtious remark on a public message board. lol.
posted on February 10, 2005 09:50:42 AM
DB - I don't mark as gifts. 95 % of what I ship is below weight and gets no customs declaration what so ever. The rest go under the same classification that they are shipped to me under.
British import taxes are obscene, especially based on how much income tax their citizens pay to begin with so I'm sorry sweety but I am just not going to feel guilty about assisting my customers in keeping that extra quid for themselves.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
In this post-9/11 era -- the era of Herr Ashcroft's Ministry of in-Justice, and the newly anoited AG: Senor Torquemada, it might behoove one to follow both the letter & spirit of customs regulations?
"Who could have possibly envisioned an erection — an election in Iraq at this point in history?" Prez.Jim Beam, at the White House, Washington, D.C., Jan. 10, 2005
posted on February 10, 2005 02:48:08 PM
Tom, individual sellers will have to do what they think best at the time. I dont know if its right to ask somebody to lie if they dont feel comfortable doing that?
I also think if you go to the same PO all the time especially with your nicely little Ebay- Labeled packages, or neatly metered packages going all over the place... some of the po clerks (and this is a stretch because some of them cant quite figure out how to do anything except sell a book stamps right yet) but some of them might figure out YOU + EBAY, kawabunga!
Now proving one package is not a gift or whatever among all the rest is another matter. And probably not even worth their trouble unless they see it happening over and over again. I dont pretend to be a post office expert, but I would think they're supposed to be watching out for stuff like that????? But maybe not. Who knows?
But I do think things have changed in a post 9-11 world. Look at them opening media-mail packages, and worrying about the use of their boxes turned inside out and stuff?
I probably would have fudged on the value for the customer if it was feasible to do so. But if it gets lost opened or stolen in customs, what happens to the declared value then? The 1st couple of Int'l deals I did I didnt have a clue about any of that. The customers never mentioned it, and I just filled out the customs forms as I read along the boxes with the information I knew. (I took PP on them too, but thankfully did not run into this situation.)
fenix: Just because a country has obscene customs taxes, doesnt make you the moral compass of what all sellers are doing or should be doing with their own business. You're the one with the morality rap. Only you think yours is superior because its a robin-hood morality. So big whoop-di-doo for unmoral moral you.
posted on February 10, 2005 04:01:19 PM
Tom - Ashcroft does not really give a whoop. Nor does he give a whoop about t-shirts shipped via media mail or priority boxes turned inside out for that matter. The post office is the only one that cares about that because you are affecting their income. When it comes customs forms you have to remember that the only people that pay attention are the recipient country. As long as you avoid describing your items as WOMD, Steroids, or Microsoft Raw Code Disks no one on our soil really cares what individuals ship.
BTW - Most postal employees don't really give a whoop either. The only ones that do are the same ones that tell you that you cannot put your Thank You (that was you right?) notations on the package and that use of tape on priority mail envelopes is punishable by death.
DB - So you think that I am the embodiment of evil. Hope you didn't think you were the first.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on February 10, 2005 04:56:40 PM
Wrong or not, 99% of the time I give my customers a break on customs. I don't mark gift, but I do find out what the limits for a particular country are and go from there. Why should the British government or any other government take a piece of the pie?
Cheryl
"No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power." ~ P.J. O'Rourke
posted on February 10, 2005 05:36:02 PM
About once every 5 weeks, we dance around this issue, & I have yet to get a definitive answer about the legality of filling-out customs forms un-truthfully...
Does anybody (in authority) care?
OR, is this kinda the same schtick as "do not remove mattress tag?"
UNTIL I hear anything from anybody "in-the-know," I will continue to follow da rules of the customs forms...
WISH we COULD get THE ANSWER!
"Who could have possibly envisioned an erection — an election in Iraq at this point in history?" Prez.I'm-"STRONG"-On-Immigration-Issues-Except-When-I'm-PANDERING-To-The-Hispanic-Vote, White House, Washington, D.C., Jan. 10, 2005
posted on February 10, 2005 05:46:36 PM
If the buyer asked you to lie on the customs form and you've saved the request, perhaps you could suggest that you'll forward their request to the English Customs Service. That might frost their cookies!
posted on February 10, 2005 06:16:29 PM
The customs form is an official government document. When you sign it, you are certifying, under penalty of perjury, that the information you entered above is true and correct to the best of your knowledge. Fenix is correct. The chances of anyone ever finding out is practically nil. But you always want to keep in mind that perjury is a felony. Just how lucky do you feel? And for those that feel it's kosher to lie on a form to help a foreigner evade lawful taxes, do you feel it's also appropriate to solicit help from a stranger in a foreign country to help you evade U.S. income taxes? WTF is the difference? A criminal act is a criminal act and tax evasion is tax evasion, no matter what country you live in. The last I heard, England was a democratic country with free elections. If they think taxes are too high, they have a chance to remedy that legally at the ballot box.
A $75.00 solid state device will always blow first to protect a 25 cent fuse ~ Murphy's Law
posted on February 10, 2005 06:18:00 PM
I happen to think that it is not in keeping with a "global economy" to tax imports. Having said that, I don't like to lie, and generally avoid it when possible. I'm not a saint, but I like the fact that most people who know me, trust me.
I did lie on a shipment to the UK of an item that had originally been manufactured in the UK. How silly to charge customs when it was imported into the US, and then charge it again when it went back to the UK! Bass ackwards.
Since I had negotiated a very friendly price (off eBay) for the item, and since I had become friendly with the buyer in our back and forth emails, I rationalized that it was "sort of a gift."
posted on February 10, 2005 06:34:52 PM
Thank you all for so many replies. Some clarification points are: no conversation ever took place over how the customs form would be filled out; the TOS were that the purchase would be insured and mailed at buyer expense. He paid with PayPal and I purchased the insurance, paid the airmail parcel post, and made an accurate declaration. This expense came to $28 or so. The fees in question are £64.30 (which I think is about $120? and yes, awfully high). He is acting as if he is in total shock and had no anticipation of it and blaming it all on the US! He had a positive feedback score in the 90s and had made previous purchases from the US, though I don't think they were quite this high. He has asked twice today that I compromise with a 50/50 split of these fees. I would almost "feel" like compromising if I hadn't checked his recent retorts to two negative feedbacks for nonpayment. They are hideous and vulgar. This is not the type of guy I want to accomodate. I am going to allow myself about another 12 hours for a final response. I will probably tell him he should refuse the package and we will cancel the transaction. I will be out about $90 or more when you calculate the shipping both directions, the PayPal fees, eBay listing and selling, and Vendio fees. A little bit of it might be recouped. I'm not quite sure of the ORDER OF OPERATIONS on my part. He has PayPal chargeback rights for 45 days, I think. He says Customs will return the Package after Tuesday if they are paid. I want to mitigate the possibility of him doing a chargeback AND claiming the package from customs and therefore perfecting a total embezzle. Thank you again.
posted on February 10, 2005 06:40:31 PM
I meant to say, "package will be returned if customs fees AREN'T PAID by Tuesday." Does anyone know if 7 days is the length of time before packages are returned to sender?
posted on February 10, 2005 09:43:45 PM
Washington: Seems Bid pay is the way. I,,just rejected a Japanese buyer for wanting Pay pal, So solly no can do..bidpay or send a U.S. Money Order.
posted on February 11, 2005 03:27:10 AM
::Sparkz: WTF is the difference?::
That was my point. Why is the buyer's import taxes presumed to be the onus of the seller? Because that makes you the good guy for the buyer?
Tom's comparison of the mattress sounds about right to me. The one concern I would have though is if it does get lost, etc. Should you want to go through the legal channels for recovery, THEN someone might ask why they are looking for an Antique 18kt gold necklace when your form says its a burger king plastic spinner toy with a declared value of 1.00.
fenix: lol! dont put words in my mouth. You are not important enough to be the embodiment of evil. (I would think if there is such a thing, it would choose a much better vessel for it than YOU.) For all your knowledge about ebay, etc, this guy/girl comes to this board for some help&advice and all you can waggle is: "dontcha feel good you're so moral?" -what are you Paul Lynde/uncle Arthur over here? snivel;smirk. Yet as per the norm with your foot in mouth disease, all your pompous insights on people's motives, etc. yet again turns out to be totally dead wrong.
