posted on June 20, 2005 02:45:59 PM new
Hi... going through a bit of postal hell here. I'm wondering if anyone else has gone through this; if so, how it worked out.
Basically, I shipped an old plastic radio, well packed, and it arrived broken. Now, if you know old plastic (this one was 40 - 45 years old), you know it can be quite brittle. Here is the letter (word-for-word) denying the claim:
"Two postmasters reviewed the manner in which this item was shipped. YOUR DUE DILIGENCE in double boxing, excelsior and bubble wrap were without a doubt quite sufficient to protect the helmet-radio from rough handling.
Consequently, WE ARE DENYING THE CLAIM and request that you reimburse (the buyer's name) all his costs. ...
In the spirit of continued cooperation, the postmasters of (cities and names) will continue to document the culmination of your interaction with (buyer name) to HIS satisfaction.
All parties at this end will retain copies until (buyer name) is satisfied."
How about that! They all but call me a slime ball crook that sends out broken goods!
To my knowledge, never once did they ask the buyer if maybe he dropped it. I surely wouldn't... I am a trusting sort, and if he says it came that way, fine, I'll believe him. Besides, the one postmaster I spoke with said something to the tune of "... I wouldn't want to be on his (buyer's) bad side .. "
Then when I said that I had sent them a picture of the radio in before-shipping condition, she round-about said they don't know when the picture was taken (true, no proof), but basically called me a fraudster once more.
WOW AM I %$%^(*&_
Any tips on how to crawl up the USPS ladder? This (ebay selling) is not a business for me, but a means of getting rid of old and finding new items (collectaholic). I have paid over $7000 in postage over the past few years just on what I have sent out... maybe that much on what I have received. Suppose they'll miss me?
posted on June 20, 2005 03:05:44 PM new
Wow, Jim. $7,000 in postage and this isn't a business for you? We send about 100+ items a month and have only spent about $3,000 in the past 2 years - and we're operating as a business, too.
Because of situations like you're in now, we've been using DSI for insurance on items we don't want to "eat" if something happens to them.
Sorry to hear your troubles, but it does support our decision to insure privately.
Wayne
Never explain -- Your friends do not need it and your enemies will not believe you anyway.
~ Elbert Hubbard
posted on June 20, 2005 04:27:13 PM new
I should have clarified... that is for 5 years (maybe more than "a few". Some of the items I sell are fairly heavy (tools & antique hardware), some are heavy and require double boxing (radios), so it adds up quickly. I come from a collecting family, and with my parents' dying it makes for a lot of stuff.
I haven't heard of DSI, but will check them out.
I am still pretty upset... at being maligned, and, I'd had that radio 40 - 45 years and now it is garbage. I only sold it to make room.
One other clarification... the words in CAP's were underlined, not capitalized, in the letter... I don't know how to do that!
posted on June 20, 2005 07:31:24 PM new
I am to say the least a little confused. This is the line and a half I don't understand " YOUR DUE DILIGENCE in double boxing, excelsior and bubble wrap were without a doubt quite sufficient to protect the helmet-radio from rough handling.
Consequently, WE ARE DENYING THE CLAIM" Does that not make any sense to anyone else?? If the post office clearly admit's that your packing was in their words "without a doubt quite sufficient", where do they come up with the next line that they are denying your claim. The more I think about it the more I shake my head. I myself would call the 1-800-275-8777 USPS help line and inquire there about how to get someone higher in charge to investigate this. I guess I'm lucky. I pay about $6,000 to 8,000 a year in shipping and luckily to date have never had anything arrive broken ,of course now that I say that something will break this week . I am on very good term's with my local post master and I will stop in tomorrow and explain your problem to him and see if he know's how to get in touch with someone higher.
posted on June 20, 2005 07:54:17 PM new
Mike,
I think they are implying that the seller packed and shipped an already broken item to the customer, and they are denying liability for the claim, as it could not have been damaged in transit. They are unwilling to consider that the customer dropped it on a concrete floor as he was unpacking it. What I don't understand is how these two Postmasters are interjecting themselves into how Jim and his customer eventually settle this matter. They are pressuring him into providing a full refund to the customer, and want to see evidence that Jim has made the customer satisfied. When they washed their hands of liability, they should have backed out then. How Jim and his customer eventually settle this is none of their friggin business. If they suspect the seller of being a crook, then it's up to the customer to notify the Postal Inspectors and let them investigate. The postmaster that sent that email to Jim is out of line, and should be reported to the Postmaster General, with a copy going to Jim's congressman.
A $75.00 solid state device will always blow first to protect a 25 cent fuse ~ Murphy's Law
posted on June 20, 2005 08:14:08 PM new
This is the worst case scenario I have ever heard of from USPS, I just am dumbfounded at their denial. FYI DSI stands for Discount Shipping Insurance. They are on the web @ DSI.com.
posted on June 20, 2005 08:51:01 PM new
Ride the WaVe,,,,,,,,roll some Postal heads,,,,,Stand FIRM! Don't Give in!!!!! Our Government at work,,for them!
I stood FIRM last week,,,,the City,,,hahahaha, I ended up getting the ONLY license in the ENTIRE City to do what I,,, wanted to do......NO body else has one,,,,,,No! body,,,,,,but everybody says they have one, BS! I went throught the hoops and actually got it!
Persaverance! Tenacity! AND the RIGHT papers......
Street life, It's the only life I know ,,,street life , it's the ONLY way to Go........
posted on June 20, 2005 09:12:53 PM new
Hi... and thank you for the support.
Yes, they are implying that it was broken when I handed it over to them.
My feedback is (maybe "was" 100% positive. Yup, justjim1 is my real i.d., and you can see the poor unfortunate radio as the pictures are still on (Green Bay Packer radio).
I have no reason to doubt the buyer's honesty, but am miffed by my assumed dishonesty.
SPARKZ, I also thought they were a bit over the top on some of the comments regarding the resolution of this. I am a pretty even tempered milque-toast sort of guy, but I made the error of saying that I felt as I was being defrauded (having packed well, paid insurance, handed package over in good faith) and then she (postmaster) threatened me with the postal inspectors... I said, sure, if that is who I need to talk to (foolish me, I thought maybe they'd actually be of help). Good thing I "retracted", although she (at buyer's end) said I couldn't as once it is said it is said. The local PM said the inpsectors show up with badges and guns.
I showed the letter to the local postmaster, asked him if I could claim it through his office... not after seeing the letter he says. He basically said I eat this one. OK, I guess I can handle the $45 loss, but it is a bitter loss. The getting labeled as the villian here is most frustrating.
I asked the post master (via phone, at buyer's end) if I should switch to shoddy packing. She says something like: what are you, a lawyer? (took me a while to admit I'm not). I asked the local PM same thing, interjecting that I wasn't trying to be a smart ass, and referencing a damaged radio I had received a year or two back with no packing whatsoever (they paid the claim). Catch-22.
I will try the US Postmaster General, various and sundry politicians, and make as much noise as I can. At the least I can cause them a headache or two. My Grandfather was a postmaster back in the 1930's. Wish he were around to consult with. Like they say, I'm retired, not much else to do with my time. Pity I'll have to use the postal service to mail my letters; I'd say something about stamp glue having gone sour today, but I use the self stick kind.
I hope "to the buyer's satisfaction" doesn't include handling fees, postage to return, et cetera! Maybe even loss of consortia!
posted on June 20, 2005 09:27:47 PM new
I agree with Jack and Sparkz on this, too. Get some clarity on what they mean by the language they used -- make sure they explain themselves. They'll probably dig themselves deeper into a hole they won't be able to get out of... Then do what Sparkz suggests - get someone higher up to talk with - a regional supervisor or someone at a larger post office nearby.
I would also contact your congressman as suggested. Once you have the clarity that they are suggesting you sent an already broken piece of merchandise - let your Congressman know that they shouldn't stand by and let federal government workers in a supervisory capacity malign a local business person the way they did.
Also inquire about the other point made about their insistence that you "satisfy" your customer. You mentioned that there is "no proof" of when the photos were taken -- ahhh, but you might not know yet that most digital cameras impart that detail when the photo is made and can be found in the file's "properties." You can also prove the condition from that point to the photos in your auction listing -- then tell them you are willing to swear out a statement that the item was in perfect condition when delivered to their facility.
If you're retired and have a lot of time on your hands - you might even want to tilt at the Postal Windmill by pursuing an attorney who likes class action lawsuits. I wonder how many people have their claims summarily dismissed without justification? Hmmmmmm?
posted on June 20, 2005 09:40:18 PM new
<<The local PM said the inpsectors show up with badges and guns.>>
That's great. Just inform him that you are enjoying your first retirement so much, you can't wait to start your second with a pension paid for by the Postal Service. What you are dealing with is a customer who broke it unpacking, or has the same identical radio that is damaged and is trying to pull a switcheroo. You are not the first seller to experience this. Those of us who sell pottery and china have all been through it before. Tell the buyer that it's unfortunate that she lives in a town with incompetent postal employees, but they verified that you pack well and you will not be issueing a refund. Take the neg, neg back and go forward with a formal complaint to the Postmaster General. Be sure to keep your congressperson c.c.'d on every exchange you have with them.
A $75.00 solid state device will always blow first to protect a 25 cent fuse ~ Murphy's Law
posted on June 20, 2005 10:01:35 PM new
Sparkz,
I'm not sure what you mean by the 2nd retirement with a postal pension. If you are referring to the class action lawyer route, I doubt one would touch it, and I prefer to solve my own problems when possible.
I doubt the buyer is trying to pull a sneaky one. It is a rather unusual radio (it was a premium back in the 60s' for Cummins Engine dealers in Wisconsin... not too many of those). However, my wife had the same thoughts you expressed. It does seem a bit odd to me, though, that such thoughts apparently never occurred to the postal folks. They have been pretty quick to tar & feather me, though.
I'm going to be busy with a photocopier tomorrow making copies for the PM General (the top banana one), a congressman, and a couple senators. Oh, the pain of having to buy stamps to do that.
You know, I am such a straight arrow that when I was asked for some Priority Mail boxes to help pack for a move, I said NO... you cannot do that! Reminds me of a poster my Dad had in his office:
"work hard with diligence and honesty and you will be rewarded" with a picture of a guy with a screw sticking out of his stomache.
posted on June 20, 2005 10:13:50 PM new
Wayne,
I doubt I'll get any more written material from them. Maybe what I have will be enough rope to tangle them.
I will have to check to see if I saved my original pictures with date info, but they could just counter by saying I broke it while packing.
Do you know any others that have their claims dismissed in such a mtter? I know that post offices are graded on dollar volume (clerk told me), and perhaps on damage claims. If you know of such an attorney, pass along his name. I doubt I'd do anything with it though, just not my way. I vote with my feet and wallet.
My auctions state that I am not responsible for loss or damages in mailing, but, hell, I am trying to be a good guy.
posted on June 20, 2005 10:30:50 PM new
Jim...One thing I forgot to include earlier. If the items you sale are mostly heavy, why are you screwing around with the Postal service in the first place? If it weighs more than two pounds, chances are it will be cheaper to ship via FedEx ground. And with them, you get insurance up to $100.00 at no extra charge plus true tracking, much unlike the delivery confirmation fraud the P.O. perpuates. I could understand it if you lived out in the boondocks where a trip to FedEx might entail 50 or so miles, but if you live in a mid size town, especially if there is a Kinko's close by or a good sized airport, it might be worth checking out. Even home pickup in rural areas should be looked at.
A $75.00 solid state device will always blow first to protect a 25 cent fuse ~ Murphy's Law
posted on June 20, 2005 10:55:55 PM new
Sparkz,
FedEx would be about an hour round trip for me. I will consider it, though. I was not aware that they had home pick up. Generally I ship on the day the buyer pays, so off I go to the post office with just one box on many days. What the heck, there is a great ice cream stand near there, and the dog enjoys the drive. I could "educate" my buyers and just ship once per week. UPS is an option, but my experience with them was bad... at one point they were damaging 35% of packages I received, so they scared me away. I use UPS only if a buyer is insistant on my using it.
With a name like SPARKZ I thought maybe you were a fellow radio nut.
One fallout of this situation is that I have decided to take a lot of my stuff to an auction house.
You know, if that radio had been damaged before shipping... that box would have rattled.
posted on June 20, 2005 11:18:01 PM new
Jim...I AM a fellow radio nut. I'm a ham radio operator, first licensed in 1969. Tomwii and I had quite a discussion on how to present vintage radios for auction when he fell into a bunch of them. There is no reason to not disclose the condition of the case when listing a radio for an auction. Many people are more interested in replacing a chassis that has been fried during a severe electrical storm than they are about the condition of the case. It's just like listing a cookie jar. You never know whether they want the jar, the lid or both.
A $75.00 solid state device will always blow first to protect a 25 cent fuse ~ Murphy's Law
posted on June 21, 2005 12:23:03 AM new
FedEx Ground, not for me!!! Way to expensive. I started using DHL about 4 month's ago and am to say the least tickled pink. I sold a heavy item (a small arc welder) and got the buyer the shipping charges through UPS and they asked if I would ship with DHL and if I wanted all I had to do was package it and they would have DHL pick it up from me. I told him I would check them out and I have been with them ever since. They basically offer the same services that UPS and FedEx offer but much cheaper. You can print your postage online just like the others, and by the way Vendio will be adding DHL rate calculators some time in the future I was told. I'm not sure about FedEx but with UPS you can not use their free box's for ground shippment's. DHL's free shipping supplies can be used for ANY of their services to include ground. Also if you are a bulk high volume shipper your rates go down, another bonus. They also pick up from your house or business like the others. In fact when I ship with DHL and schedule a pick up for the next day, the total charges are ALWAY'S cheaper than the shipping charges alone from UPS. I have had to call DHL's operator's from time to time and I have never in my life spoken with more polite and considerate customer service personel. They must give them happy pill's. When I first opened a account with them I ordered the free shipping supplies and after a week of them not showing up I called to inquire. The girl I spoke with told me she would put it under her wing and guarenteed me I would have my supplies next day by noon. Suprised me the next day when he showed up at 8:30AM with my box's, about 2 hours later she called me back and asked if I had recieved them. She said she was just checking up to make sure everything showed up that I ordered. Wow, now that's customer service. I suggest them to everyone I know that ship's. And everyone I know that tried their service has gone with them exclusively for their shipping. You may not have heard of them but I'm sure you have seen their vehicles before, bright yellow with red lettering. They are originally a German company that has expanded to all over the world. In short all I have to say is look out UPS and FedEx, there's a new player in town and they are better then you
posted on June 21, 2005 09:55:45 AM new
justjim1, I read your post this morning and thought... I wonder? So I asked my postmaster (I live in a VERY small town remember) to take a look at the thread and give me his wise opinion. He and I then spoke and agree... someone is lying and we both think its the buyer. He must have pulled it out of the box and dropped it or had a broken model he is trying to hustle and make you pay! Our best advise is call the 800 # that Mike gave you .... David, my Postmaster says a postmaster #1 would not word a denial the way your letter reads and #2 get 2 post masters together in one room to make a denial NAH!! wouldn't happen that way. I wonder if your buyer wrote the letter? Anyway if the postal 800 can't help I would suck it up and take the neg ( and believe me I KNOW how hard is is to take that first neg)... I would not return the money if indeed you shipped a whole and good product. By the way what is this guys feedback like, any clues there? I did not find the auction on your page must have dropped off yesterday.
[ edited by bjboswell on Jun 21, 2005 10:02 AM ]
posted on June 21, 2005 11:43:17 AM new
I thought the wording of the letter from the postmaster sounded a bit odd too. All that about reimburse your buyer? Like what they should care? And I also was going to suggest something else is working behind this fiasco more than what it appears.
But I gather you have considered all that already.
posted on June 21, 2005 08:10:37 PM new
Hibbertst...
my dog is incredibly camera shy. No kidding, if I (or anyone) holds a camera up to take a phot, she just slinks away, tail tucked between her legs. No idea why... I got her used from the pound, so you can never tell.
bjboswell,
Thank you for the input. And, thank you especially for not deciding that I am lying!
here is a link to the auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=6532157623&ssPageName=STRK:MESO:IT
The one postmaster I spoke with said she did write the letter, and it has a red postal stamp on it. I'm not sure what the story is with 2 of them involved... maybe the one she told me to appeal to is higher up on the food chain. The buyer is from some flood damaged area in Pennsylvania, so maybe he has to go to 2 post offices.
Tell your postmaster thank you for me... gives me some faith in the system.
The buyer's feedback is very good 784, 99.7%.
mike,
I have heard of DHL, and did once talk to them about something. Yes, they were very nice. I seem to recall that they pick up, too. Their closest place is in Rockford, IL, I think. Thanks for another good option. Buyers are very price sensitive, so cost is very important.
Sparkz,
I'm a ham op, also... since 1971. Mostly "off the air" the past few years, but I have several boatanchors that I am trying to make room for. My interest in keys has rekindled, so I have been concentrating on them the past several months. They are smaller than radios!
We may be moving "out in the country" so I can resume hamming in style with a decent tower/antenna setup.
Now, how does one just happen to "fall into" a pile of decent radio stuff? Some guys have all the luck. I don't know Tomwii. I try to disclose everything when I list an item... it no doubt costs me, but I've had no comebacks. The cosmetics of the gear is very important. As for the cookie jar... not too fussy, just keep it full (and not with store bought cookies).
Dblfugger,
I am somewhat puzzled by their interest in my paying off the buyer, too. I had no idea the post office provided that kind of service. Next time someone owes me, I'll sic a postmaster or two on him.
Back to the matter at hand:
end of day 2 and the 2nd postmaster has not returned my call. Apparently, good service does have its limits. I decided to wait at least 3 days before dashing off letters to the PM General and various politicians. I think the pm's failure to return my call is significant.
You know, if I could just get one of those pm's to understand the nature of old, brittle plastics they'd understand that items can be damaged even if they are well packed. Dang, just because the box had no tread marks, bullet holes, or whatever, they take an attitude that is most offending.
posted on June 21, 2005 08:50:19 PM new
Jim...I was in the moving business for 40 years, and I handled many concealed damage claims. A surprisingly big number of those claims were for damage caused during unpacking. After a few hundred claims, it's easy to determine if the damage was transit damage or butterfingers on the part of the unpackers. An experienced claims handler for the P.O. (which normally is NOT the Postmaster)should be able to do the same. And the wording od the claims denial will be much more diplomatic than the letter you received.
I've been off the air for awhile also since we moved into this house. Gotta find a weekend to have an antenna party and get back on. I chased the DX for years, but my main interest now is ATV. We have a repeater up in the Sierras and can broadcast television over a good part of the San Joaquin Valley. I'm seriously thinking of getting into the Skywarn program with the NWS. They prefer hams as weather spotters, and I think ATV would fit in great with their system. There's quite an active group in this area.
A $75.00 solid state device will always blow first to protect a 25 cent fuse ~ Murphy's Law
posted on June 22, 2005 07:40:12 AM new
Sparkz,
I used to be a contester/DXer. Multiple towers, monobanders, stacked Alpha's... all that. A new wife and about 5 moves (and another move before too long) put an end to that. Miss it. I don't know of any ATV activity in this area (Beloit, WI).
I was in the truck biz... heavy duty IH truck dealership. I started in the parts dept, and had to deal with concealed damage claims. One of my favorites was the one when I received an empty box. Claim denied, "you signed for the box, you received the part". Never could convince them that yes, I did sign for it, had to before I opened it to find it empty; had to eat the loss.
I am hoping I can get to someone at the postal dept with less of a closed-minded attitude/opinion. I'll give them until Friday, then tell the buyer to return it for a refund. My hope is that he will be "satisfied" with my returning the purchase price plus shipping... meaning he will have to pay shipping to me. Not a big deal (return shipping cost), just seems "right & proper". If he screams too loudly, I'll even pay to get it back; maybe I can get $10 for the remains; it was a nice radio.
Jim
. Some of the items I sell are fairly heavy (tools & antique hardware), some are heavy and require double boxing (radios), so it adds up quickly. I come from a collecting family, and with my parents' dying it makes for a lot of stuff.
. I am on very good term's with my local post master and I will stop in tomorrow and explain your problem to him and see if he know's how to get in touch with someone higher.