posted on November 9, 2005 09:13:17 AM new
If a package is lost in transit and you (the seller) have proof of shipping, will Paypal rule against you? Their TOS is inconsistent. In one place it says: "If the claim involves non-delivery of goods, the seller must present appropriate proof of shipment to the buyer’s specified address."
In another place it says : "If the buyer claims that the item was not received, you must be able to prove that the item was delivered by providing PayPal with an online-tracking number that shows evidence of delivery. "
So if it's lost in the mail, is it the seller's or buyers problem?
Oh, and I don't mean this to be a philosophical discussion of whose problem is it. I want to know how Paypal would rule.
[ edited by stormypetr on Nov 9, 2005 09:16 AM ]
posted on November 9, 2005 09:32:06 AM new
Ultimately, the seller has to be able to prove the item was delivered.
That means that if the Postal Service screws up and doesn't scan the package on delivery, the seller is hosed. The claim will go against him.
Some sellers are using Signature Confirmation on packages even when it's not required, presumably in hopes that that's more security. It isn't. In my neighborhood, my carrier dumps SC packages on my doorstep and never even rings the bell. He actually forges the signature. I had to chase him down one day and yell at him about this. He said he was doing it to save me a trip to the post office.
fLufF
--
[ edited by fluffythewondercat on Nov 9, 2005 09:33 AM ]
posted on November 9, 2005 09:40:35 AM new
Is this from your own experience? You had a package that indicated it had been mailed but not delivered and Paypal ruled against you?
posted on November 9, 2005 11:07:37 AM new
I once shipped a package via USPS using Stamps.com postage. The package was shipped via Priority mail with a "Delivery Confirmation Number". According to the Postal Service it was delivered 3 days after it was shipped. They left me positive feedback and even sent me an e-mail thanking me for my quick service and telling me that it was exactly the tool that he needed... all was good or so I thought.
A couple of weeks later I get a notice from Paypal that the customer requested his money back because he never got the item. They took the amount out of my account and said they would hold it until the dispute was settled. As requested by Paypal I sent them the "Delivery Confirmation Number" as well as a copy of the complimentary e-mail and the positive feedback. I also e-mailed the customer to see what was up, he never replied back.
Several more weeks past before Paypal settled the dispute, in the customers favor! Paypal also charged my account an extra $20.00 for a "Charge back" fee.
When I contacted them to complain I was told the following reasons why the dispute was settled in the customers favor; 1. "Delivery Confirmation" is not proof of delivery as far as they are concerned, because all that the "DC" proves is that the package made it to that Post office. The package could have been delivered to the customers mail box or left on their porch and then stolen by someone. 2. The copy of the Positive Feedback and the e-mail meant nothing to them because the feedback may have been left by mistake and I could have forged the e-mail (I did include the properties of the e-mail so that they could verify the authentication, had they wanted to).
I was also told at that time that the only proof of delivery accepted via Paypal is a signature on delivery and that signature must be the person that it was sent to, not the spouses or the anyone else. They backed this up by directing me to several sections in their user agreement and the seller protection policy. That was about a year ago, the policy may have changed since then, I don't know.
The whole experience cost me about $55.00 including the $20.00 charge back fee. Since this happened I now leave no more then $10.00 in my Paypal account and only $5.00 in the bank account that is connected to the Paypal account. So if it happens again the most they will get from me is $15.00.
posted on November 9, 2005 11:08:28 AM new
If it is lost in the mail and the seller provides Paypal with online trackable DC,Paypal will side with seller.
But if the bidder then files chargeback with his credit card issuer,Paypal may turn around and reverse the payment from the seller's account.
See, USPS DC is not good enough in a chargeback dispute.
As for driver signing the package,I have a case where the Fed Exp driver signed my signature so he does not have to make another trip.
posted on November 9, 2005 11:21:16 AM new
Paypal can no longer access your bank account .
As for leaving nothing or five dollars in your paypal account,it does not work unless you decide never to accept payment via paypal.
posted on November 9, 2005 11:57:38 AM new
hwahwa,
Your correct the purchase was by a charge card, sorry for omitting that fact. I don't know if Paypal would have sided with me had the payment been made directly out of the the customers Paypal account or not. It was my understanding that Paypal would not accept the "DC" as proof in any case. But what you say does make since, if the credit card company takes back the money, Paypal surely ain't going to eat it.
"Paypal can no longer access your bank account."
You might be correct, but I'll take no chances. The checking account doesn't cost me anything to keep open and it keeps me verified and confirmed with Paypal so I'll keep it as is.
"As for leaving nothing or five dollars in your paypal account,it does not work unless you decide never to accept payment via paypal."
I have to disagree with you on this one. I've been accepting Paypal all along (1764) Verified Buyers so far. I'm usually at the bank on a daily basis. While I'm there I'll get a cash advance on the balance of the Paypal account (leaving $10.00) and deposit it into my other business checking account, one that is not tied to Paypal. I've never had a problem accepting or sending Paypal payments since implementing this process.
posted on November 9, 2005 11:59:24 AM newAs for leaving nothing or five dollars in your paypal account,it does not work
It doesn't work in the sense of keeping you safe from chargebacks.
It does work in the sense of not letting PayPal have any more of the float than absolutely necessary, meaning you get some slight satisfaction in virtually raising your middle finger.
I wonder why someone hasn't invented a tool that checks your account multiple times a day and transfers out any balance over a set amount, say $5.00. Such a sweep feature is common in the banking world.
posted on November 9, 2005 12:20:44 PM new
wonder why someone hasn't invented a tool that checks your account multiple times a day and transfers out any balance over a set amount, say $5.00. Such a sweep feature is common in the banking world.
//////////////////////////////
do you want someone to have access to your paypal account and password ??
As for keeping 5 dollars in your account,what I mean to say is that if you have lost a chargeback and there is no fund in your paypal account for paypal to reverse ,it will just create a negative balance in your account.Then when your sold something and the bidder sent you payment,this payment will be netted against the negative balance.
The only way to avoid this is not to accept Paypal,some Ebay sellers do not accept Paypal for this reason
posted on November 9, 2005 12:38:49 PM new
I once had a buyer claim item not delivered. I had the delivery confirmation showing the item was delivered but it wasn't to a paypal "confirmed" address so I was hosed. I'm just glad that lesson only cost $11.00.
posted on November 9, 2005 01:35:54 PM newdo you want someone to have access to your paypal account and password ??
Yes, me. Ever hear of software? You know how you login to your PayPal account and check the balance? ("Um, yeah, Fluffy." There's no reason why that can't be done automatically on a script run from your own machine.
Amy: BTDT, got the t-shirt too. You've got Accept Payments Only from Confirmed Addresses turned on now, right?
posted on November 9, 2005 02:01:34 PM new
Someone once claimed on this board also that if your dc shows delivered and you insured it as well, the PO will not consider the insurance for lost packages because the DC shows delivered?
That made me think that if you have to ship to an unconfirmed (or newbie or something flaky) maybe you are better off skipping the dc and paying for insurance? Then if the buyer says unreceived, you have something to fall-back on?
.
[ edited by dblfugger9 on Nov 9, 2005 02:02 PM ]
posted on November 9, 2005 03:46:04 PM new
true,if a newbie seller does not know what unconfirmed addr means,he should just skip DC and take out USPS insurance.
But for the seasoned seller,continue to use DC and take out insurance from U-PIC or any online insurer,not the post office.
I seldom use DC,I find my bidders shockingly honest !!!!!!
posted on November 9, 2005 04:07:14 PM new
So UPIC will honor the claim of lost even with a dc, but the USPS wont?
hwawa, the way I understand it, if you ship to an unconfirmed address and they claim lost, your screwed with paypal and paypal (USPS via pitney bowes) anyway.
edit to add: and if you purchase your online postage from paypal, the DC is not de-selectable either. I just thought it was worth noting, the USPS will not entertain insurance claims of lost if dc shows delivery (even though they could have delivered it to the wrong mailbox.) Thats good for the seller with paypal, but what do you do when the buyer maybe really did not get item? Then in effect, they are screwed.
.
.
[ edited by dblfugger9 on Nov 9, 2005 04:40 PM ]
posted on November 9, 2005 04:26:56 PM new
I currently have a hold of $140 on my account. Buyer in Italy chose letter post with no insurance offered. No tracking for that method either. Claims he didn't receive package. I have copy of receipt from P.O., copy of shipping notification sent to Buyer on same date. I just sent this info to Paypal.
I suppose they will still rule in his favor wont they? I guess I should stop taking Paypal for international transactions?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Caroline
posted on November 9, 2005 04:36:59 PM new
Probably Caroline
I know,though, the thing is, everything goes smooth time after time, and you get comfortable with that scenario....then bam!...get the one where you say never again...
Your shipment will probably show up in two months or something. If youre lucky to have an honest buyer maybe they will pay you for it then.
posted on November 9, 2005 07:32:45 PM new
with DSI and U-PIC,you must have delivery confirmation to file a claim,how else do they know if you have shipped the package?
USPS has become a lot tougher since Ebay - they will deny claims if DC shows it is delivered,they will deny claim if it is poorly packed,they will also deny claim if it is well packed(their rationale is -since it is so well packed,it cant be damaged in transit,the item must have been broken to begin with).
The claims we file go back to our local office ,one day I was chatting with my mail woman,she is a contract worker and she seems to know more about me than I would like her to know-she knows I file few claims,she knows I have enough stamps on my package!!
She knows some of my neighbors will soon be losing their homes???????
posted on November 9, 2005 07:54:03 PM new"with DSI and U-PIC,you must have delivery confirmation to file a claim,how else do they know if you have shipped the package?
Yes...so? It's FREE or $0.13!
Unlike the USPS, all DSI (or U-PIC) requires for a claim is a FORM FILLED-OUT by the receiver...SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE!
If you use INSURANCE frequently, I recommend you consult with the folks at DSI -- they be #2 and really bend over backwards with terrific CS!
Especially with their CONTROL PANEL, purchasing INS is extremely easy! No reporting needs to be done, as they INVOICE you monthly from your CONTROL PANEL info!
posted on November 9, 2005 08:06:18 PM new
Private insurers like DSI and U-PIC do not have to take on anyone,if your loss experience is high,they can refuse to do business with you while the USPS does not have this luxury,hence higher rates,
There's no reason why that can't be done automatically on a script run from your own machine.
considering the PRICE:
Caroline 
