posted on January 6, 2006 08:37:46 AM new
Folks, is there anybody else out there who has been defrauded on Ebay and had to go through their Fraud resolution in order to get any kind of compensation? Let me share my story. Back in August I won an auction for $2000 on Ebay. I paid for shipping, and set up the arrangements. I received the shipment, and only got half of what I paid for, the other half of my merchandise never arrived. The seller lived in a state 2000 miles away. Not exactly driving distance, or I would have been on his doorstep immediately.
I emailed and called the seller numerous times, with no response. I finally filed an Ebay fraud report against him back in early September. Ebay required me to send in all the vital info, including copies of the payment that I sent. They forced me to jump thru several hoops and send additional information (which I had already provided multiple times), and every time they emailed me, they required me to reply back to them within 72 hours, or my case would be closed with no compensation.
After finally waiting nearly a MONTH for them to try to finish their investigation and jumping through even more hoops, they finally agreed that I was defrauded and awarded me a grand total of $175. Their MAX coverage for fraud of ANY amount is $200, and then they keep $25 of that as a "filing" fee. NOTE: I knew all of this info before filing, I knew that Ebay would not refund the $1000 that I was owed since I only received half the shipment.
However, even after they finally agreed that I had been defrauded and won my case way back on November 4, they announced that I would have to wait SIX MORE WEEKS to get that $175 payment. Payment was set to be sent on December 22. Guess what? The payment was not sent on December 22. I had to email them 3 more times (trust me, I was beyond angry at this point), before they finally responded. They claimed that they had technological issues and holiday issues that prevented them from sending payment. Finally, on January 4, 2006, I finally got the $175 sent to my Paypal account.
Folks, I just want you to to know how big of a FRAUD that Ebay's fraud protection is in and of itself. It took me FOUR MONTHS of jumping thru hoops to get $175 back on a deal where I was due $1000 back. Every time an email goes back and forth between Ebay members, Ebay sends a huge attachment saying to never complete transactions off of Ebay's site, because they you are not covered by Ebay's "protection." What an absolute, pathetic joke.
I am angry enough about this to contact a major news agency and share my story. I thought maybe if there were more of you out there with similar experiences, we could team together and hit Ebay where it hurts---right in the big old PR department.
On another note, I also need advice as to what to do next to go after the guy who defrauded me. Do I contact his local police department? Do I have any recourse from here on out? Any advice/input is appreciated. Sorry this is such a long vent, but there have to be more of you out there who have similar experiences.
posted on January 6, 2006 08:44:29 AM new
Contact anyone you can. The local police, email the FBI's internet fraud team, contact a lawyer, etc... At the least whatever you do be sure to contact your local police department and get a investigation started.
If you live near fLuff you might get with her for her 3 day picket line in front of ebay headquarters, I'm sure she would appreciate the company
Just another white mouse in the ebay maze looking for some cheese
posted on January 6, 2006 09:01:23 AM new
Here's the site for the FBI's Internet Fraud Complaint Center. http://www.ifccfbi.gov/index.asp
You may also want to contact the US Postal Inspection Service if you mailed the payment to the seller. I think this would be covered under mail fraud if you did. http://www.usps.com/postalinspectors/fraud/ContactUs.htm
Just another white mouse in the ebay maze looking for some cheese. --- Mike
posted on January 6, 2006 09:01:24 AM new
First,tell us how you paid this seller?
is he still selling on Ebay now?
Ebay fraud protection only goes for 200 dollars,it is just a venue,you know that.
What is the merchandise and are you trying to resell them?
It would be your words against his,whether it is full shipment or half shipment?
Say if you can get a third party involved ,can you prove you only receive half the shipment ? and would the third party then go after him and ask him to prove he has made full shipment??
/ lets all stop whining !! /
posted on January 6, 2006 09:09:31 AM new
ditto Mike's... in my past life in mail order, USPS fraud investigation was a very formidable tool in shutting down fraudulant sellers. Just out of curiosity, did the seller have a high positive feedback selling expensive items?
posted on January 6, 2006 09:16:05 AM new
Thanks for the advice and the websites provided, everyone.
hwahwa to answer your questions:
1)I paid the seller via wire transfer. Yes I know, basically the absolute dumbest way I could have possibly paid him other than sending cash. However, with circumstances that are too long to explain that was virtually my only option at the time.
2) The seller has been kicked off Ebay, and apparently had only 1 or 2 other transactions on Ebay prior to mine.
3) As I stated, I definitely knew beforehand that Ebay's max protection is only $200. My beef is not that I didn't know their max coverage wouldn't cover my losses. My beef is the inexcusable amount of time it took them to compensate me even after they agreed I had been defrauded and my case had been proven, and the way they advertise their fraud protection in every email as though it will cover all fraud and you are only safe when dealing on their site.
4) The merchandise is books. I do sell books on Ebay and other sites, but I have not sold any of these until I get this resolved.
5) I guess it would be my word against his, although I have the receipt from the shipping company stating X amount of pallets sent, and I have those exact same pallets sitting right here. I also have the seller's Ebay ad stating X amount of books, and that I only have 1/2 of them sitting here.
6) I think it would not be hard at all to show a 3rd party that I was contracted to receive X amount of books and that only 1/2 of them were received. I have saved all my receipts, communications with the seller, and I have a full copy of the Ebay ad that I was bidding on.
posted on January 6, 2006 09:30:47 AM new
I believe Ebay uses a third party like an insurance co to reimburse you for you loss and this is probably a reason why it takes so long to receive your check.
If you have paid with a personal check,your bank may be able to help you but not wiretransfer.
But this sounds like a case for the USPS Fraud investigation dept,like someone said it does wield a big stick.
USPS will send him a copy of your complaint and also copied his local police dept which will send him a copy asking him to resolve the issue with you,so he will receive two notices for the same issue,one from USPS and one from his local police.
Call USPS Fraud Investigation and speak to one of their investigators ,he will advise you what form to fill out and where to send the form.
Of course he could have moved and left no forwarding address,but USPS has way to find him,but to be candid with you,there is a good chance you wont see your 1k or more books.
/ lets all stop whining !! /
Would the USPS actually get involved in this case if I didn't use USPS to either send the payment or receive the shipment? I received the shipment via a trucking company, not USPS. Thanks for all your help.
posted on January 6, 2006 09:46:07 AM new
kshoops,
I am afraid not,USPS will not get involved but call them anyway and say what can you do if they are not involved??
Or call his local police??
you said these are pellets of books,are they skids,remainders,returns?
also you said wiretransfer,is it really wiretransfer or ACH ??
/ lets all stop whining !! /
[ edited by hwahwa on Jan 6, 2006 09:46 AM ]
I am not exactly sure how to classify the payment. He gave me his bank account numbers and routing numbers, and I had to go down to a branch of his bank here in my town and make a payment to his account, for which I have a receipt. I guess it was probably more of a direct deposit than a wire transfer.
I know, I know, I have never been stupid enough to ever send anyone a payment in this manner before, and I've been buying and selling online full time for 6+ years. I've sermonized to myself countless times since this transaction about this. If I could have sent a credit card/Paypal/Postal money order I definitely would have. Anything with any buyer protection whatsoever would obviously be an open and shut case at this point. I knew much better than that beforehand and I obviously know so much better now.
I just have to stop kicking myself and explore any and all other routes at this point.
posted on January 6, 2006 10:18:56 AM new
most wholesalers do not want to accept credit card payments as the transaction amount is large so the discount fee they have to pay is high,however more and more wholesalers are tired of deadbeats and now accept credit card payments,it is better to get less than to get nothing at all.
Now,you said you went to a local branch of his bank and deposit the fund in his account,did you deposit cash or just write a check from your personal /business checking account?
You should contact his bank and find out if the account is still active?not to be sneaky,but try to do it without letting them know the real reason why you ask,just say you are about to send him a payment and see what they have to say.
There is also the Better Business Bureau and the FTC you can ask for advice before you talk to a lawyer.
/ lets all stop whining !! /
[ edited by hwahwa on Jan 6, 2006 10:21 AM ]
posted on January 6, 2006 10:24:36 AM new
another way to find out about his bank account is like this-a dealer does that with personal check she received from her customer,she would call the customer's bank and ask if there is enough fund to clear this check as she is about to deposit this check from her customer and does not want the check to bounce.
/ lets all stop whining !! /
posted on January 6, 2006 10:45:32 AM new
Get with the times, Stop. I have found that most banks no longer verify funds, or if they do, they want a fee for it.
kshoops: Don't beat yourself up about this any more. It can be so hard at times to source large amounts of reasonable eBayable inventory that sometimes you don't hear the warning bells go off in your head.
posted on January 6, 2006 11:03:37 AM new
Hi Fluff,
Thanks for the information.
If you want to buy remainder,skids and returns etc,there are two good trade shows held in Chicago and Atlanta.
Some locals will go on the last day before they close and buy the books on display.
/ lets all stop whining !! /
posted on January 6, 2006 03:19:41 PM newkshoops, wrote,
1)I paid the seller via wire transfer. Yes I know, basically the absolute dumbest way I could have possibly paid him other than sending cash. However, with circumstances that are too long to explain that was virtually my only option at the time.
Actually it's not a dumb way to pay - it's the standard in many civilized countries. Cash or Western Union are the worst by far since their is no or little audit trail respectively.
and,
I am not exactly sure how to classify the payment. He gave me his bank account numbers and routing numbers, and I had to go down to a branch of his bank here in my town and make a payment to his account, for which I have a receipt. I guess it was probably more of a direct deposit than a wire transfer.
Sounds like an ACH transfer. You can easily get the buyer's details provided the buyer's bank did their due diligence in opening that account i.e. two forms of photo ID, current utility bills and SS#. Call buyer's local police department (lookup via Google), and file criminal fraud charges (obtaining goods by deception) against them. Often all it takes is a call from a local Police Detective to work wonders. They can also have a quiet chat with the bank to get more details too (note that this doesn't work with unregulated financial entities like PayPal; you have to invoke pertinent provisions of Patriot Act to pry info out of PayPal without a subpoena).
As to the foot dragging by eBay in making good on their "insurance", yes, they follow the PayPal model and try to wear the aggrieved party down so they don't have to make any payout. Most companies will try and place obstacles in the way of valid refunds unless your country has a financial ombudsman - again many civilized countries do.
posted on January 6, 2006 03:34:56 PM new
Definatly sounds like a case to chalk up to the don't ever do again category. I would still contact the local police and possibly a lawyer about a small claims case. It is a shame the payment was not mailed since as stated earlier the USPI do weild a very big stick. They have the federal government behind them, can give very large fines and prison terms and are the best kept seceret in resolving many legal matters.
Paying by bank transfer is right up there with clicking on a ebay or paypal link in a email, that being a big no no. I do wish you luck in your fight with this guy though. It's just a shame ebay's TS department so spineless and toothless.
Just another white mouse in the ebay maze looking for some cheese. --- Mike
posted on January 6, 2006 03:45:05 PM new
This is not ACH,she went to his bank and deposit cash into his bank account,so only one bank is involved,HIS BANK.
The bank deposit receipt just showed how much she deposited into his account,there is no other information saying why she is doing it.
I doubt if you will get any books or 1k from this guy,it sounds like he knows what he is doing,anyone who is doing this needs the money bad,if he does have the books,he will be more than happy to ship them to you.
Winning in small claims court does not guarantee you will get the money but it does not hurt to call the local police and hear what they have to say.
/ lets all stop whining !! /
posted on January 6, 2006 03:58:08 PM new
<< but it does not hurt to call the local police and hear what they have to say.>>
The first thing they will want to know is why you waited 4 months to report a "crime". For this amount of money, most people would have reported it in 4 days. The second thing they will likely tell you is that it isn't a police matter, but rather it's a civil matter. They will likely view it as a business dispute between a buyer and seller. You will probably be advised to contact an attorney, or pursue it through small claims court. In any event, unless you get lucky and the case lands on the desk of a very dedicated cop, your chances of seeing the money or the books after this length of time are very slim.
A $75.00 solid state device will always blow first to protect a 25 cent fuse ~ Murphy's Law
posted on January 6, 2006 04:43:56 PM new
If your seller lives in a small town, it might be worth your while to contact the local police. I did that a few years ago with a buyer who never paid. A police officer on night duty (obviously it was a slow night in a small town) came across my letter of complaint and contacted my buyer! This "Angel from the Police Department" ALSO called me...I was flabbergasted. Needless to say, I received payment the next week PLUS a note from my buyer asking me to "undo" all the actions I had done (I also filed an internet fraud AND USPS fraud complaint). This was probably a "one in a million" occurance where all of the positive stars were in alignment BUT it worked for me. By the way, the amount involved was less than $20 but it was the principle that irked me. I hate cheats!
posted on January 6, 2006 05:30:12 PM new
What town is this crook in? (I am in CT.) I would definitely contact his police department. There have been numerous eBay scams resolved locally in the newspapers. i would also try contacting the Attorney General's Office. His contact info is:
posted on January 8, 2006 07:29:39 AM new
It IS worth the time & effort to contact the police department - many have new internet fraud departments and will act as an intermediary and get you a refund.
I, like several other buyers, had a seller in Toronto who never shipped out many items he had sold, including furniture, porcelain, etc. to the tune of nearly $10,000.
Buyers made contact and we tracked the guy down and contacted the Police there. Internet fraud department went to his home - within 1 week all buyers had postal money orders for full refunds. He had underestimated shipping so much on all his items, he just go overwhelmed and stopped shipping.
We didn't pursue charges since he was so far away - but definitely contact his local state's attorney or police department immediately. You'd be surprised what they can do for you.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Caroline
posted on January 8, 2006 07:55:52 AM new
it would be his words against hers whether the pellets of books she received is full or half shipment.
/ lets all stop whining !! /
posted on January 8, 2006 04:16:21 PM new
Everyone,
Thanks for your advice. I am definitely going to follow up on these suggestions. I'm sure there's no guarantee on seeing any monetary resolution on this, but I will be turning up the heat as best I can and see what happens. As several of you had mentioned, I should have done this about 3 months ago. Live and learn, as they say.
Caroline