posted on January 31, 2006 03:06:20 PM new
Hi!
I am desperate for advice.
Guy shows up on my door, says he is from the National Insurance Fraud Bureau. He says our VIN (card id #) was flagged as a possible stolen car. (Stolen before we purchased it). We purchased the car from a reputable big car dealer, 4 years ago. It is finally fully paid off. We have the title.
He is ready to inspect the car and if it was a stolen car, they are ready to haul it away.
I call police non-emergency# to make sure this is not a scam. To make a long story short, it is not a scam, he is for real.
We only have 1 car, if they take it, we will be forced to either rent or buy a new one (do not have $$ for it now), and go take it up with the car company we purchased it from.
Time waist ed and aggravation unbelievable. I thought this was a prank, unfortunately it is not.
They have not inspected the car yet, my husband was not home with it.
I tried calling lawyers, no one is familiar with this crazy problem.
I was hoping someone here is. Do you have any advice, experience? Do I have any rights, something I should do?
This has been a terrible week for me. This on top of the baby having 104 fever.
You guys are always so helpful, I figured you never know who knows what....
Thank you
posted on January 31, 2006 03:09:57 PM new
MAke sure the local police are there before you allow ANYONE to take the vehicle.
IF it is really valid, the adjuster should have no trouble allowing the local sheriff to be present.
I would also contact the dealer I bought the car from and ask them what they plan to do to compensate you for your vehicle. They should be willing to co-operate to save their business name.
[ edited by LtRay on Jan 31, 2006 03:18 PM ]
posted on January 31, 2006 03:18:20 PM new
There will be 2 police officers when they take the car (he said). I will call them on my own too.
I called the car co. they sent me to financial co.
Bizzare
posted on January 31, 2006 03:18:54 PM new
Have your local police check out the VIN number to see if it was really stolen. If it was, how did your local dealer get it registered? Something doesn't sound right. How did they track the car to you?
posted on January 31, 2006 03:20:34 PM new
Sorry to hear what your going through.
Maybe you should call Albany yourself and have them check out the ViN # and let you know what they have on record.
Also, If this was flagged as a possible stolen car. (Stolen before we purchased it).
Why didn't it get discovered when you registered it?
I was a Used Car Dealer and I bought a BMW I didn't register it then I decided to keep it so I registered it well it was discovered at the time of me registering it that it was reported Stolen..........now they come and take my car and I get a lawyer go to court and at the end I lost my car, I lost the money it cost me when I bought it and I lost all Lawyer fees............the car went back to the original owner, the guy who sold it to me he keeps the money I paid him for the BMW and why? Why because once he sells it he is not responsible to me for damages because he claims he didn't know the car was stolen at the time of him selling it to me.
The law now might be different but you need to talk to a lawyer.
Also please check call Albany NY the main headquarters and try to find out any information you can on the car.
posted on January 31, 2006 03:21:25 PM new
Did you mean National Insurance CRIME Bureau? There is no such organization as the National Insurance Fraud Bureau.
LtRay gave you some good advice. By all means contact the dealer immediately and let them know what's going on. They should be good for a comperable replacement vehicle immediately. You might even step up in value as the replacement should be of the same value that you originally paid for.
Keep us posted.
posted on January 31, 2006 03:23:46 PM new
Chances are you won't be able to stop them from taking the car, but you might be able to get some sort of settlement from the car dealer. If they don't agree, I would definitely consider a lawsuit, plus I would be out there one the weekends with a big sign saying the dealership sold me a stolen car.
posted on January 31, 2006 03:24:09 PM new
Don't have much experience with stolen cars but I have LOTS of experience repossessing cars, trucks, tractors and equipment.
What paperwork did this guy have that proved it is a stolen vehicle? I have never heard of them before. I did a quick internet search and the only reference to them I can find for "National Insurance Fraud Bureau" is in Ohio. Might you be in Ohio?
Call your local states attorney's office and inquire there. They deal with stolen vehicles all the time and will be able to tell you "the scoop". I would also call head offices of your state police and sheriff's office.
Just because some boob has a piece of offical "looking" paper and a wanabee badge does not mean it's real. The company I repossess vehicles for has uniforms, badges the whole nine yards and most people fall for it. Good for the repo man, bad for the debtor.
And for gods sake, call the dealer you bought it from and find out WTF is going on. If he is a reputable dealer he probably got taken also but he should still have on file where and who they purchased the vehicle from.
Whatever you do, if you have a garage park it inside until this is taken care of. Set the parking brake if parked outside, install a steering lock, or better yet block it in with another vehicle.
They say your memory's the second thing to go, I just can't remember what the first thing is.
posted on January 31, 2006 03:36:08 PM new
First, let me thank you all.
I am in Florida. The agency is real, the guy is real for sure. I called local sheriff for help, they never heard of this.
They were able to verify the police that came with the guy is real.
They have not inspected the car yet. I am so confused, not to mention angry. Police run vin #, (I requested), came out OK.
Something about same Honda was exported out of Miami and VIN flagged as stolen. It is either my car or that one.
I will get more info out of the guy of course how this could have happened. I plan to videotape the whole thing.
If they take the car, I plan to contact Better Business Bureau. I think then the car company will care, now the manager will not take calls no matter what I said.
posted on January 31, 2006 03:44:45 PM new
Good thoughts and good luck to you. It's always so scary when something "official" happens like this, and we all know how many scams there are out there.
I guess the one thing I'd do is call the police or sheriff and ask that they send one of their uniformed officers--just in case these repossessors have their own friends with uniforms. (See how paranoid I am?!)
______________________________
posted on January 31, 2006 03:54:58 PM new
YES, it is NICB (crime) bureau.
I will be sure to have real police there.
Sounded too much like a scam to me.
It is not. I am very paranoid too....
posted on January 31, 2006 04:02:36 PM new
<<We have the title>>
That sums it up pretty well. The state department of motor vehicles says you own the car, and this jerk says someone else does, but he doesn't know who. When he shows up again, call 911 and report a grand theft auto in progress and that you will be holding the suspect at gunpoint. Then hang up. It shouldn't take too long for the cops to show up. Let him convince them that he doesn't belong in jail for attempted fraud. Show the police your title to the car. It will take them every bit of 30 seconds to verify through DMV the status of that vehicle. Have him run the VIN# from the plate on the dashboard, not the number on the registration. If that vehicle shows up stolen, the police will impound it. They won't let this guy take it. You need to then go to the dealer you purchased if from and get all your money back. If he balks, invite a news crew from your local television station and newspaper to accompany you on your next visit. The bottom line is, if you have legal title, and that car was stolen, someone screwed up royally and they will have to compensate you. I went through a similar situation on a two year old Blazer I bought, but it didn't involve a stolen car. The new car dealer miscopied one digit on the VIN when he originally registered it with DMV. It wasn't until I bought it and purchased the extended warranty that they discovered it was registered as a diesel. The dealer I bought it from took it to DMV and got it straighened out.
If Murphy's law is correct, everything East of the San Andreas Fault will slide into the Atlantic
posted on January 31, 2006 04:35:57 PM new
"They have not inspected the car yet. I am so confused, not to mention angry. Police run vin #, (I requested), came out OK"
so what your saying is that the police advised you that the car wasnt stolen? If so, what I would do is have the police physically come out to your house.Explain the situation,have THEM inspect the vehicle-copy down the vin and have them check with their dept personally.Get the officers name who does the investigation.File a complaint with that dept,so you have it on record. If the police arent there they attempt to take the vehicle away,make sure you either video tape or copy down the plate number of the tow truck that takes it away.You can also have the police do a "history" vin check.That will tell you everyone who has ever owned that vehicle.
If it were me,and I called the police and they verified the vehicle wasnt stolen,I tell these idiots to take a f*cking hike......
without my car.
Then again,thats just me
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Beauty is only a light switch away
[ edited by classicrock000 on Jan 31, 2006 04:38 PM ]
posted on January 31, 2006 04:40:14 PM newcherachael wrote,
I am in Florida... Police run vin #, (I requested), came out OK. Something about same Honda was exported out of Miami and VIN flagged as stolen. It is either my car or that one.
Okay sounds like what has happened here is similar to the case of the Corvette stolen 25 years ago that was recently recovered in New Jersey and returned to the lawful owner.
As well all know loads of car hijacking rings use the Port of Miami to "export" cars to South America. In the good old days US exports were rubber stamped and seldom inspected to verify they correlated with the associated paperwork. Okay, so the occasional WMD got "mistakenly" shipped to Iraq instead of more friendly regimes like China, but mostly the system worked, kinda.
In the current "US state of heightened security" the new Homeland Security apparatik are now physically opening containers and eyeballing that the VINs on cars for export are real and not clones of real cars somewhere out there (like cherachael).
Probably your Honda is not or was never stolen, but instead the other one sitting on a Miami wharf was. Someone simply did a search of the Florida Motor Vehicle records for a Honda matching the one they stole, located your's, pulled your Honda's details and duplicated them. Presto they can now export "your" Honda (the other stolen one) legitimately. Any competent engineer should be able to tell if the other VIN plate is real or a recent addition.
Don't panic. Get records of everything, and you might even get a good write up in your local newspaper as "local eBay/Vendio seller helps smash Miami crime ring"... p.s. offer your footage to local TV affiliates too and remember to mention your eBay ID in all the free publicity. Turn the negative into a positive!
posted on January 31, 2006 04:46:59 PM new
Initially I was so worried, I started to run a fever. Now I had a bit time to cool off.
Yes, it sounds allot like the other 25 yr car returned case. Now that you mentioned South America, the dealer said the couple who had the car before us, went there to live.(?)...but it may actually not be as horrible at the end, you helped me see the light. I like the sign idea too, but dealership is 2 hours away from us.
I will definately keep you posted.
[ edited by cherachael on Jan 31, 2006 04:52 PM ]
posted on January 31, 2006 04:52:54 PM new
Bet you could have a TV crew there when they come back. Especially if you have a good local consumer segments reporter. And if anyone has an ax to grind with the dealer/seller of the car..........
posted on January 31, 2006 04:55:20 PM new
also you can bring your car to the local police dept and have an officer at the station check the vin number.He can also do a RVIN which tell who owns the vehicle and if it is stolen.You can also file a complaint at the station to a possbile scam.
Actually Im surprised when you called the station and gave the officer the vin number he told you it wasnt stolen.In New York we wouldnt do that over the phnone as you could be anyone (including a car thief) to see if the car has been reported stolen.
posted on January 31, 2006 04:56:37 PM new
also you can bring your car to the local police dept and have an officer at the station check the vin number.He can also do a RVIN which tell who owns the vehicle and if it is stolen.You can also file a complaint at the station to a possbile scam.
Actually Im surprised when you called the station and gave the officer the vin number he told you it wasnt stolen.In New York we wouldnt do that over the phnone as you could be anyone (including a car thief) to see if the car has been reported stolen.
posted on January 31, 2006 05:04:51 PM new
they checked VIN becuase I was trying to get help and the story was so crazy they never heard of such a thing.
posted on January 31, 2006 05:09:53 PM new
Have you tried running the VIN on car fax? That gives a history of the vehicle as far as accidents/repairs. It might state if a car is stolen. www.carfax.com It might just be worth it.
Cheryl
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
posted on January 31, 2006 05:14:55 PM new
definately beg borrow or steal a video camera for when/if they come back and video tape EVERYTHING including their truck and tag number.
posted on January 31, 2006 05:15:17 PM new
we did carfax report before purchasing and it was perfect. we got the car 1 yr old.
we also had the certified honda inspection by the car dealer. They are on the other coast, that is a bit of a problem when I threaten them with newspaper or news story.
big name dealership though.
posted on January 31, 2006 05:56:19 PM new
I worked for many years as a police dispatcher. When a vehicle is a "signed" stolen, it is entered into the state and national computer system. It can be accessed by virtually all law enforcement agencies (talk about not wanting to not make a typo). No license plates? You enter the inforamtion with the vehicle identification number. You can even enter just stolen license plates if a they were removed from a vehicle but the car is not stolen.
I also worked for many years registering and titling vehicles for our state's department of motor vehicles. That computer system was always able to tell if the vehicle identification number we were entering for a 1979 or newer vehicle was the correct configuration and it told the operator if there was a typo. If it wasn't correct on the originating document, then the applicant was required to get corrected documents before a new state title was issued.
HOWEVER, the DMV computers did not cross check or communicate with the the national police system (NCIC). My suggestions always went unheeded because DMV considered themselves a "record keeping" agency and not a law enforcement agency.
Now, is it possible that a car is stolen and it not show up in the national/state police computers. Absolutely, but I'd make sure that my local law enforcement agency made a police report if it is being confiscated. You should have an officer check their state AND the NCIC system to see if the vehicle was reported stolen. But you cannot rely on that information just because the vehicle "comes back clear". Then put a lot of pressure on the dealership! A lot of pressure. If it is or was stolen, you the final owner, are out the $$. Have the paperwork tracked! Do this through your local DMV all the way back to the original documents. It may require you to contact another state's DMV. You want copies of everything! Did the dealership have previous knowledge of the stolen status? You may never be able to prove it but court action may be a possibility.
Find out how the NIFB is getting their information. Even if it was not listed as a stolen in the police system, all an investigator has to do is check that vehicle identification number in each state to see if a car has been titled and/or registered in that state. (You can title a vehicle in most states but not necessarily have it registered. A car is property and if not driving it, it may not have to be registered depanding on your state.)
You don't say if this was a new car (which would have had what is called a MSO--manufacturer's statement of origin or certificate of origin) or if it was a used vheicle. A used vheicle's originating document would either be a previous title from the state you bought it in or a title from a different state depending on the transactions between private parties and dealerships.
Make a police report, a police report, a police report! A judge always wants a police report. Question everything. The police can log the identification of the investigator. Everything in writing! Everything!
Noone's ever convinced me about carfax. Maybe they're a help, I don't know their process. But I wouldn't forfeit anything based on a 3rd party internet search.
But then I guess I have more inside knowledge and I know that not everything's automated on title records. I know which states can make a salvage vehicle become a "clear" title without a brand of salvage or prior salvage. I know which states don't have lemon laws. Have a title from one state that states the vehicle is a "lemon" or had been returned to the manufacturer????
Another dealership obtains it; certain states don't carry that notice or branding through in their state.
If you ever buy a vehicle, insist on seeing the originating document!! If the retoric response is that its tied up in the finance office....well, "I ain't buying the car until I see that document". Make sure it has no previous brands! Its amazing what outsiders don't know. How can you? Its the system.
posted on January 31, 2006 06:50:41 PM new
Classic:
State Police in the Upper Midwest. I'd rather not disclose where but you can sorta guess and probably be close. Major suburban areas. (I had had previous city experience before that) I enjoyed the work. Love it but very few retire from the job.
cherachael:
I'm surprised that NIFB did not contact your local law enforcement agency first! It is a valid bureau but don't accept any transactions without having everything documented. You think out of courtesy, NIFB would have called the police agency ahead of time. We often had calls from the repo companies letting us know before hand when they were repossessing a car---because we always got those calls of panic from the titled owner that their car was being stolen.
Of course, never tell us they may be behind on payments and repo was a possibility. A dispatcher can't see through the phone and acts on what facts are at hand. And a lot of time they are facts that are not truth.
If this investigation ends up not in your favor: pull the original paperwork from the time you purched the vheicle. You'll eventually need to go to your motor vehicle office and request copies of everything they have on microfilm. (assuming that's how they keep track of evreything--most states do) EVEN IF the dealership is cooperative, YOU get the documents from DMV. Don't let any surprises pop up. You may have a reputable dealership....but personally I trust noone.
You want to eventually see what that dealership took in as a source document of ownership. It probably was from another state since it was used. It could be a title from the state you were in. If the car was just a dealer demo, you may have been the original owner so than an MSO or MCO will be the originating document. But its rare to have a matching title with a stolen vehicle unless the first owner left the title in the car when it was stolen! But even a scammer would have made a police report to collect on insurance and than the vehicle identification number would be in the NCIC (national program) and in the state from which they made the report. There are a lot of variables as to what may have occurred.
I know you've received a lot of advice here. I wouldn't call about keeping a NIFB investagor at gunpoint. Any mention to a dispatcher will receive a strong police response but I doubt the officers will be as cooperative with YOU as you need them to be after a call like that. Carfax.com, in my opinion, won't be enough to prepare you for court if that is the result.
If they want to inspect it, just make sure you have documentation and someone with you. Husband or friend for moral support, but more importantly an officer to make a report. Make them wait for an officer or an investigator from your local police agency. They've waited this long! You say he says it was "possibly" stolen. Who knows what happened? I'm not an officer nor one in your state. I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV. Do they have the right to come into your residence or on your property without a search warrant. Probably not, but I think if you're on the street, you're fair game if they contact the police about their suspicions. I would assume its something you want to address so you can sleep at night. Be polite but firm. This is nothing you can't handle! It isn't fun!
I hope it works out for you and there was a clerical error or whatever.
Keep us posted.
[ edited by toybuyer on Jan 31, 2006 06:57 PM ]
posted on January 31, 2006 08:17:19 PM new
toybuyer: the investigator did tell me he will come back with 2 police officers when he is ready to inspect the van. I was going to call and ask (nicely) for more police anyway. I promise, I will ask for a police repot, that's an excellent idea.
I will keep you posted!!
[ edited by cherachael on Jan 31, 2006 08:22 PM ]
I like Sparkz reply!