posted on April 11, 2007 01:53:22 PM
I recently started helping transport dogs to foster homes and rescues. I met an American Staffordshire/labrador retriver. It was such a nice dog. I have since become curious about the breed because they are outlawed in some places. There are 2,584 of them listed on Petfinder needing homes. So many of them are described as being loving with children and other dogs. What gives? Some of these are purebred.
The AKC and many dog fanciers INSIST that there's NO SUCH THING as a "bad" breed and that "breed-specific" laws are both unfair and unscientific...
OTOH: when was the last time you read in a paper about a rampaging BOSTON TERRIER killing a child? How would a BT do it? By LICKING you to death?
From what I've read, POODLES cause the most "bites" but PIT-BULLS cause the most fatalities...
Personally, I don't trust them & remain unconvinced by the breed supporters' arguments in favor...
ALSO: one wants to double-check one's HOMEOWNERS INSURANCE and RENTAL AGREEMENTS etc, to make sure specific breeds are NOT prohibited before adopting or purchasing...
posted on April 11, 2007 02:23:09 PM
I understand exactly what you are saying, Tom. Until I met this fella and started looking at all the ones on Petfinder I thought people that owned them were white trash dealing drugs or people that like to intimidate you with their dogs. I think most dogs run pretty true to their breed description. My lab is sweet, friendly, laid back, etc. I have run into a few labs though that don't like anyone except their owner. I have read the newspaper articles where the owners of the American Staffie are quoted as saying they don't uderstand it, it has never acted like that before, etc. after it has torn a child to bits. It is such a shame that dogs are allowed to be bred when they have a predisposition to attacking, then they are abandoned and no one wants to take a chance on them because of what they might do. I feel they shouldn't be allowed to be bred and then abandoned to suffer through no fault of their own.
posted on April 11, 2007 03:30:37 PM
Dogs are not the only pets which attack.Cats with evil eyes attack too.
Ducks,geese,chicken they all do,peck their way to add some protein to their diet!
*
Lets all stop whining !
*
posted on April 11, 2007 04:32:21 PM
I have a friend in CT who raised several litters of Rotweiller/Pit mixes. Yes, I know what you're thinking...these dogs were not raised to be attack or fighting dogs at all. They were raised to be well-balanced, friendly and devoted dogs. This family has two small children and the most these dogs would do was lick them to death. Honestly, they are better behaved than my poodles (of course poodles are meant to be spoiled rotten). I truly believe it is all in the way a dog is raised and its surroundings. Hard to believe these dogs are not monsters, but rather mellow dogs!
HOWEVER: every single time a pit eats a kid, the owner ALWAYS comments that the dog was next in line for sainthood, and had JUST that very week won the NOBEL PEACE PRIZE...
My very UN-SCIENTIFIC research is based on reading the news: every time a kid is EATEN, I keep hoping to read about a DERANGED BASSET HOUND...but it's almost ALWAYS a PIT...
posted on April 11, 2007 04:52:23 PM
On the tourist beaches in Mexico, there are always rather scary looking local young men parading, all with their pit bulls (some on leashes, some running loose). I see it as an intimidation device. There must be a reason gang members tend to have pit bulls over other breeds. I know I'm sounding mean and biased here, but I'm only biased against dogs that attack children for no reason and against men (always men!) bringing their pit bulls around children on beaches.
_____________________
Dogs have owners, cats have staff.
posted on April 11, 2007 05:59:27 PM
I had a toy poodle and he was just as sweet as pie. He was my little buddy for 13 years until he passed on a couple of years ago. I know poodles get a bad rap, but not all are nasty. My little guy was just so sweet. I do think that how you raise them and how young they are when you get them makes a big difference.
posted on April 12, 2007 06:05:16 AM
No breed is inherently bad. The old adage "there are no bad dogs - just bad owners" is very correct. Now that being said - a bad owner does not always mean that the person teaches the dog to be aggressive, it just means that the owner does not have control over the dog. There are some breeds that are more aggressive by nature than others such as pit bulls - dobermans - chows - rottweilers - chihuahuas, just to name a few. However, handled by a gentle, knowledgeable owner these dogs can be as sweet and gentle as any other breed. The key is knowledge of the breed and their inbred level of possible aggression. Most people make the mistake of thinking that because a puppy is cute and sweet that they will be able to make the dog stay that way when they are grown just by being nice to the dog and loving them. Not true!!! Dogs are pack animals and understand the pecking order of the pack by calm dominance and assertive behavoir by the pack leader which should always be the owner - not the dog. Too many owners assume that the dog understands us as humans and what we want from them. This is too much to ask from a dog. We're asking them to not only learn to live with a different species but understand us as well when we are far more intelligent than they are.
If you want a good dog,learn to understand the dog, their behavoir and how to correct it in a calm, assertive manner. Our dogs look to us for guidance and love. The least we can do is give it correctly considering all they give to us.
posted on April 12, 2007 06:26:37 AM
Several years ago I knew a medical illustrator who made detailed drawings of the skeletons of animals for veterinary schools. It was her observation that a pit bull's jaw was so constructed that is could do more damage than most other dogs. She thought that was the reason, as much or more than temperament, that there were so many more stories of serious pit bull attacks.
-----o----o----o----o----o----o----o----o
The illiterate of the future will be the person ignorant of the use of the camera as well as of the pen.
Maholy-Nagy, Vision in Motion, 1947
posted on April 12, 2007 06:58:52 AM
So with all the what ..800 (?) breeds of dogs a person feels the need to have a known aggressive breed of dog around children to prove a point?
How stupid and cruel.
YES, some breeds ARE more aggresive than others....if you MUST have a dog, especially around children, why not a breed known for it's NON-agressiveness??????
NOT that that will always protect the child (or your neighbors) but it's a much more intelligent idea.
A friend's dog is recuperating from a vicious attack on THEIR property by the neighbors pit bull which was SUPPOSED to be confined. Funny! The other neighbor's black lab has caused NO problems.
And, since most people haven't the brains to train any kind of dog, they should not have an aggresive breed available to them.
posted on April 12, 2007 08:14:47 AM
I agree that anatomically, pit bulls can deliver deadly bites. This is by design - they are bred that way. Some years ago, another breed designed to fight was found adorable and breeders focused on breeding the cuddliest of the critters - voila ! We have Ralphie. My folks had a deranged lab who was fond of eating toddlers - sent two of them to the hospital for stitches. The old coot had a run-in with a nasty raccoon and short fast things made him nervous.
posted on April 12, 2007 08:32:04 AM
I grew up with a sweet german shorthaired pointer. He and the cat he grew up with had identity issues. She thought she was s dog and he thought he was a cat. The cat and dog would stand infront of the garage door as the dog barked at passersby. When they were both babies, he would carry her around with the cat's head in his mouth as a mother cat would do. As adults, She would have a batch of kittens and then go outside for some bird hunting or whatever. The dog would sit in her box (smashing down the sides with his girth) and baby sit until she returned. Cleaned the kittens, not letting them stray from the box. We used to catch the youngest kid in our family using my dad's belt and pillow to make a saddle and rode the poor dog. He was so happy to oblige. Gentlest dog in the world.
When I decided to do some dog rescue work after my own dog died, I decided to work with that breed. BOY was I in for a shock. These dogs are bred to have a gentle mouth, to carry the hunted birds back to the hunter. The first dog I fostered was a mean hunter. He hunted and killed a skunk outside. Tore it to pieces. It eventually started attacking people. That was it for me.
posted on April 12, 2007 08:38:43 AM
Pixia has a good point - that golden lab was the sweetest dog EXCEPT around toddlers. You'd swear she wouldn't hurt a fly except to slobber them to death but the fact remains that she did attack two small little boys. It isn't just the fighting or fiesty breeds. I still have a scar from a nasty cocker spaniel bite I received as a child (I petted it thinking it was my friend's dog except it wasn't). Dogs are animals and can be as unpredictable as humans.
-------------------------------------
posted on April 12, 2007 10:35:51 AM
Of course, ALL dogs can bite if provoked badly enough...
The apartment complex Me & Ralphie live at (ole SWAMPY HOLLOW) has a rule forbidding the presence of PIT-BULLS and ROTTWEILERS, probably due to liability insurance concerns...
AT LEAST 2X/year a tenant is evicted for ownership of one of these breeds...
One CLOWN used to let his PIT rove freely off the leash...
Another CLOWN used to let his kids (10-12yo) walk his monster, ignoring the fact that they could barely control the creature...
One time me & Ralphie were taking our usual afternoon post-pranial constitutional when, out of the blue, one of these creatures made a bee-line for us -- I grabbed fat-boy up into my arms (all 28lbs of him) and made a sprint for our door, barely making it in time before that HOUND FROM HELL could chow down upon our tender and tasty body parts...I'm sure our dash provided loads of entertainment for trhe jerk owner, NTM subtracting years from my cardiac health...
Yes, I understand and accept the whole concept of: "No bad DOGS, only bad owners"
But, I still go back to the plain simple everyday fact: WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU READ ABOUT A BOSTON TERRIER; or BASSET HOUND; or BEAGLE killing a child? Well, the answer is: NEVER! It's virtually ALWAYS a PIT! How could an owner live with himself after having a dog EAT A CHILD? Beyond my comprehension...
posted on April 12, 2007 01:27:25 PM
Lordy, that was a close call for you and Ralphie, Tom!
This thread reminds me of a cocker spaniel named Patty which my husband's family had in the 1950s. The father was a minister of a large church. Patty was great with the family and loved anyone in view who resembled the age and size of one of the family members--mother, father, two sons, two daughters.
Seems Patty couldn't stand the church ladies who came around and would invariably leap up and bite them in the butt. The parents had to caution church ladies who came around to never turn their backs on Patty.
And when I started dating Bob, Patty detested me, was jealous of me, like a teenage girl! It was funny to us all.
_____________________
Dogs have owners, cats have staff.
posted on April 12, 2007 06:17:24 PM
My cousin was a full believe in the "no bad dogs, only bad owners." She is a professional Animal trainer and specializes in dogs. She and her husband had a pit bull mixed and never had a problem...
until...
The dog was barked at by a strange dog in his back yard (the dog was in the yard next door). The dog started tearing its way through a wood fence to get at the trespasser. Her husband looped a leash around the dogs neck so the people in the other yard had time to get their dog and get into the house. The dog proceeded to attack it's owner. He eventually had to kill the dog to get the attack to stop.
These were Good owners with a good dog. Pit bulls are unpredictable at best. Most are fine most of the time, as this dog was, but you never know what, if anything, will set them off. That is why they are like living with dynamite. With proper care, you SHOULD be lucky, but you never know.
posted on April 12, 2007 08:05:19 PM
Good post, dejapooh. There may be no bad dogs, but owners and potential owners should know that dogs bred for aggressive behavior with a body designed to kill are a walking time bomb. They may be well trained but at some point animals (including humans) may revert to their natural instincts.
posted on April 22, 2007 12:09:33 AM
I own 2 rottweilers, a 10 year old female and a 6 year old male. Neither of them has ever bitten anyone thankfully. They were both raised in a nice suburban neighborhood and treated very lovingly. I think the main problem is that they are huge and powerful dogs who could easily harm someone if they wanted to. I know that many people believe that bad owners make bad dogs and that is somewhat true. An improperly trained rottweiler with a neglectful owner could be a very dangerous dog! You've also got owners who act in a criminal manner, teaching a dog to attack or participate in dog fighting. Some owners want a "big, bad tough dog." A bad owner is one factor, but some dogs are born with weak nerves and a questionable temperment. Just like people, dogs have different personalities and levels of tolerance. Buying a dog from a questional breeder can open you up to all sorts of temperment and health problems.
We've only had one bad incident in our decade of owning rottweilers. Last year, our male rottweiler had a bad eye infection. We took him to the vet and it turned out he had ulcerated corneas in both eyes. She performed a bunch of somewhat invasive tests on his eyes. After the 2nd test (where they stick paper in the corner of each eye to measure tearing), he growled and snapped at the vet. I was stunned! This particuliar dog has always been very gentle; no dog, people, or food aggression at all. If he is eating a steak, you can stick your hands right in his mouth and take it away and he won't do anything about it. The vet said jokingly to our dog, "If you do that one more time, Mister, I'm going to have to muzzle you!" I told the vet, "I've never seen him show any aggression before, you'd better get the muzzle now." So we muzzled him for the rest of the exam, as a safety precaution. His growl and snap was obviously a warning that he was extremely upset.
I have no idea what caused him to act out. Maybe the tests were painful with his ulcerated corneas (the vet said this was a very painful condition for the dog). Maybe he was just nervous with all the prodding (but he has been at the vet many times before and is a canine blood donor). This was the first time he had been treated by this particuliar vet; perhaps he didn't like her for some reason. I doubt that was it though because he was friendly with her until she started touching his eyes.
But it was a painful lesson in reality that any dog, no matter how much you trust him, can suddenly show aggression. My mother used to own a little cockapoo. She was the best dog, gentle and loving with everyone. Except for the UPS man. For some reason, she hated the UPS man! Whenever the UPS man came when she was outside in the yard, she'd snarl, lunge, and try to get him through the fence. We have no idea why; the UPS man was a very nice man!
I believe that any dog, no matter what breed or temperment, will bite under the right set of circumstances. Part of being a good dog owner is knowing what upsets your dog and keeping him out of certain situations. If your dog is dog agressive, you have to keep him out of situations where he may encounter another dog. It wouldn't be a good idea to visit a dog park! A responsible owner never lets their dog out in public unless he is leashed; even a good dog can get into mischief. Many dogs bite when they get loose and team up with another loose dog. They form a "pack" and I've heard that a dog will do bad things in a pack that he'd never do if alone. Many of the dog related fatalities (which are rare, your chances of being killed by a dog are more than 1 in 10 million) involved multiple loose dogs participating in the attack.
It is harder to own one of the "hot dogs." Some insurance companies won't provide coverage if you own a breed on their "hot dog list." This list usually includes German Shepards, Dobermans, Pit Bulls, Rottweilers, Akitas, and other large powerful breeds.
I probably wouldn't own another rottweiler in the future, not because I believe they are evil, but because everyone else believes they are. It's just become too much of a liability these days in a sue happy world. My dogs have always been wonderful family dogs and I sleep very well at night knowing that I have them to protect me and my children from intruders. LOL, I don't know if they'd actually protect me, but I figure anyone who knows that there are two rotties inside probably wouldn't be foolish enough to burglerize my home. Some people cringe in terror when they see a rottweiler. When my female rottie was a puppy, she barked playfully at another dog while being walked and the dogs owner told me, "You shouldn't own one of those vicious dogs!" When a lab goes crazy and bites someone, no one thinks too much of it. When a rottie bites someone, its headline news and people scream for breed bans. Rottweilers are also an expensive dog to keep. They eat alot and are prone to all sorts of health problems. The average lifespan of a rottie is only 8-9 years. I've read that 25% of them get cancer.
I've never owned an American Staffordshire Terrior, but our neighbor has one. The dog is really beautiful and very friendly. He's about 4 years old and I've never seen him show any aggression at all.
Obviously, I'm not in favor of breed bans. But I do think that certain breeds should be more regulated. I don't think that just anyone should be able to go and buy a rottie or pit bull on a whim (like I did ten years ago when I saw that adorable puff ball of a pup!). I think that someone should have to get a permit and/or take a class and pass a test on how to handle, raise, and train a large dog. I think that there should be a law requiring mandatory professional training of certain breeds. I don't think anyone who has been convicted of a felony should be able to own a potentially dangerous breed. Seeing most bite incidents involve dogs that aren't neutered (irresponsible dog owners do not have their dogs fixed), there should be mandatory altering of all dogs, unless the owner has a license to breed. Breeding should also be regulated; dogs should be temperment tested before being allowed to produce offspring.
I don't believe that any breed of dog is more prone to vicious behavior. Small dogs bite too. But its only common sense that a pit bull is going to do alot more damage with his bite than an angry chihuahua will.
A family member of mine works for the county and investigates dog biting incidents. I can tell you that most bites in our area do not involve the so-called dangerous breeds. At one time, the cocker spaniel was number one in dog bite incidents. Every vet and dog groomer I've ever talked to told me that its the little dogs who bite the most often. While in most cases small dogs don't kill, they can cause great damage too. In 2000, a pomeranian in California killed a 6 week old baby. According the the CDC, other small breeds of dogs such as cocker spaniels, daschunds, and yorkshire terriers have killed humans. Also, breeds that are not known for aggression such as golden retrievers have killed people. I guess what it boils down to is that you have to be very careful if you own a dog, no matter what breed he is.
[ edited by goodbuys2 on Apr 22, 2007 01:10 AM ]
posted on April 22, 2007 08:47:17 PM
My partner has a Staff/Pit mix. She is sweet as pie. When I go into the house she barks like mad at me... because she wants her scratchins. I sit down she sits at my feet with her muzzle on my knee and waits for me to scratch between the ears. She is a doll.
My neighbor upstairs has the most beautiful Staff I've ever seen. She is huge and powerfulful with a thick squared head, neck like a tree trunk and pure muscle with a blue brindle coat. Within 2 minutes of the first time I came into contact with her she rolled over and gave me her belly. When they talk about no good dogs, just bad owners... the first thing I thought when she did this was that her owner was going to be a good neighbor. She has the kind of build that people that want to turn a dog mean seek out and yet he had raised a pussycat. Iwas right... He's the best neighbor I have.
When my partners female had her pups the runt was tiny little thing that was barely hanging on. I desperately wanted to bring her home since anytime I was at their house she would crawl up to my lap and sleep there endlessly. Unfortunately the city I live in... has a ban.
Gotta love it when a city would rather kill all of a breed they can get their hands on than punish the idiots that abuse them.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
People put their hand on the bible, and swear to uphold the constitution. They do not put their hand on the constitution, and swear to uphold the bible.
[ edited by Fenix03 on Apr 22, 2007 08:54 PM ]
A responsible owner never lets their dog out in public unless he is leashed; even a good dog can get into mischief. Many dogs bite when they get loose and team up with another loose dog. They form a "pack" and I've heard that a dog will do bad things in a pack that he'd never do if alone. Many of the dog related fatalities (which are rare, your chances of being killed by a dog are more than 1 in 10 million) involved multiple loose dogs participating in the attack.