posted on April 12, 2010 07:05:33 AM new
CAPE CANAVERAL — Business owner Michael Steadman bought a $44 time clock on eBay, but never bargained for the $15,000 lawsuit he faces because his buyer's review ticked off the seller.
Steadman made the purchase in November 2008. But when he saw the shipped goods didn't match the advertisement, he expressed an opinion about the South Florida lawyer who offered the item on the Internet: "Bad seller; he has the ethics of a used car salesman."
That comment about the clock, which Steadman returned to Elliot Miller of Miami Beach, prompted a $15,000 defamation lawsuit. He said the lawsuit has cost him $7,000 in legal bills and his attorney quit because he could no longer afford to pay him.
"I made the mistake of leaving my honest opinion online," said the 49-year-old owner of Triton Welding & Machine Shop. "The comments are there to let other buyers know who they're dealing with."
But, he said, "it's not safe to say anything online. You don't have a freedom of speech. The laws don't work for us. Because I don't have the money to fight them, I'm losing. It's not right. I'm speechless."
According to the lawsuit filed in February 2009 in Miami-Dade County Court, Steadman's feedback ruined Miller's 100 percent rating and "commercial reputation" on the site and, in light of the refund, amounted to defamation.
The lawsuit said the time clock was "plainly offered for sale with the following language: 'we can not give you any guarantees and must offer it on an as-is, where-is basis only.' "
A review of Miller's eBay profile, emiller1313, shows he received 83 positive ratings in the last year, in which users call him a "great eBayer," and one negative comment. The negative comment, from December and not from Steadman, claims Miller sold an item then "suggested we unload obviously broke unit on another unspecting buyer."
His current rating is 98.8 percent.
Miller's attorney, Judith Frankel, declined to comment.
"We have no comment on the case because it is a matter still pending," she said. "It'll be resolved in the courts."
Steadman said he joined eBay about six months before the time-clock purchase, seeking reasonably priced items for the small welding business he opened about three years ago in Cape Canaveral.
He thought he'd scored a bargain with his winning bid on a "sturdy time clock with all the fixings" for his four employees.
Miller wrote in his advertisement that he found the clock while cleaning out his grandfather's offices. The ad featured a picture of the item and said it had been tested to "confirm" it would imprint a card inserted into its slot.
But Steadman said the item he received didn't match what was advertised: The clock was sent in three pieces of varying models that didn't fit together. It also didn't give time stamps and couldn't be used with a wall-hanging mount. A key shown in the photo and mentioned in the ad didn't work.
Steadman said he complained about the misrepresentation to Miller, who at first refused to refund his money. But a complaint filed with PayPal's buyer protection plan forced Miller to take back the item and pay up, Steadman said.
The eBay Web site invites buyers and sellers to leave positive, negative or neutral feedback ratings and comments because it says online trading depends on trust and reputation. So Steadman said he gave Miller a "negative" rating and left a comment.
Steadman said he thought that was the end of it, until a process server showed up on his doorstep months later with a court summons.
Money's gone
Steadman said he tried to represent himself in court, but he didn't understand the jargon or what documents to file. Late last year, he hired a lawyer using money he borrowed from a second mortgage he had taken out on his home three years ago to start the business.
But the funds have run dry, and a Miami judge last week granted his lawyer's request to quit the case.
"I warn everyone that goes online not to leave feedback," he said.
posted on April 12, 2010 08:22:08 AM new
I'm glad the buyer realizes he shouldn't have left feedback... Maybe that will get a few other bidders rethinking their tactics. lol.
I'm curious if the time clock still exists or was resold or disposed of. I'm sure the attorney would head off any questions regarding this, since his lawsuit is about defamation not about the actual transaction.
Ebay should be stepping up to the plate in this matter. It is their system that encourages bidders to leave feedback.
Bidders should definitely be more cautious what they say in feedback. Had this bidder stayed focused on the transaction instead of calling the seller names, he wouldn't be in this mess.
The Seller is using the Tort process to bleed this guy dry. He should be ashamed of himself. He could have filed legal docs to have eBay remove the feedback and left it at that.
Slime bag attorneys are always looking for their next target to make a buck on. I would know, as I have worked with many attorneys.
[ edited by shagmidmod on Apr 13, 2010 04:35 PM ]
posted on April 12, 2010 08:27:44 AM new
Over the last few months I have been working on a way to describe condition of items without giving opinions.
I think many sellers make the mistake of describing something as "excellent" or "doesn't detract from the beauty of this item", etc. These are opinions, and can create more problems for the seller if the buyer is dissatisfied. This makes an INAD much easier to file if you disagree with an opinion. However if you describe the item with facts such as, "metal shows some rust" or "there is a 1/4 inch crease in the corner" it is much harder to dispute that.
posted on April 12, 2010 03:04:05 PM new
SOUNDS MORE LIKE EXTORTION,MANY LAWYER ARE AMBULANCE CHASERS,
-IS HE A FULL TIME EBAY SELLER,AKA HE MAKES A LIVING SELLING ON Ebay and pays his bills using Ebay proceeds?
-What does the Ebay term of agreement have to say about feedback when he signed up to sell ?
-is this a case for the small claim court,the judge should throw the case out.
-How does he come up with 15k when most Ebay sellers make peanuts?
is 15k to compensate for his reputation as an Ebay seller or a lawyer?
If for lawyer,how do his potential clients trace his Ebay seller ID to his law pratice??
I think the buyer should countersue him for loss of revenue due to faulty malfunction time clock-his employees should sue him also for possible loss of wages and moral and disruption.
There is no 'Global savings glut',only wild horses and loose bankers.
[ edited by hwahwa on Apr 12, 2010 03:08 PM ]
posted on April 12, 2010 04:57:14 PM new
"The eBay Web site invites buyers and sellers to leave positive, negative or neutral feedback ratings and comments because it says online trading depends on trust and reputation. So Steadman said he gave Miller a "negative" rating and left a comment."
Above quoted from the article, I ALWAYS LOVE accurate reporting. Sellers can NOT leave neg or neutral. I know all you guys know that, but the reporter should know it, also.
This does seem like a scam and the seller has a decided advantage since he is a lawyer. He will probably make more from the lawsuit or its fallout than from Ebay.
posted on April 12, 2010 04:57:25 PM new
You can't say whatever you want online or anywhere else if you're going to defame someone and expect that one day you're luck isn't going to run out. Some of the buyers let their anger get the best of them. If I'm angry, I usually write something out in word or just on paper and wait until the next day. It makes me feel better. If I still feel like sending it, I revise it to make it more tactful and less spiteful and send it. 90% of the time I just delete it.
I think this buyer was wrong. He got his money back. He should have dinged his Description star and not left any feedback at all. Those stars hurt far more than the feedback!
Cheryl
http://www.youravon.com/cherylblevins
Now you can buy Avon from me from anywhere in the world.
[ edited by CBlev65252 on Apr 12, 2010 04:58 PM ]
posted on April 12, 2010 05:24:40 PM new
I think the bigger scam is his lawyer who earned what 7k from him.
He can countersue since he has a business and workers,this time clock caused him money and anguish and time lost is money not made from business,not to mention anyone in his family and his workers family who aspire to be a platinum seller on Ebay now become so demoralised and disappointed by this lawsuit.
Fight scam with scam,lets all sue someone!
*
There is no 'Global savings glut',only wild horses and loose bankers.
posted on April 12, 2010 09:27:24 PM new
I wasn't referring to any particular seller/attorney just a seller who happens to be an attorney... not necessarily the one referred to here.
Besides, lawyers make their own impression on people. They don't need to be compared and contrasted to car salesmen. I think it is up for debate who is better.
posted on April 12, 2010 10:06:13 PM new
shagmidmod, posted: "I wasn't referring to any particular seller/attorney just a seller who happens to be an attorney... not necessarily the one referred to here."
Huh? You really do not understand defamation do you?
Bill K-
[ edited by kozersky on Apr 13, 2010 01:03 PM ]
posted on April 13, 2010 04:36:30 PM new
There Bill... are you happy??? I have removed anything that could be interpreted as libel.
Thanks for looking out for me. lol.
posted on April 13, 2010 04:55:39 PM new
if you want to find the transaction, the buyers id is triton_mike123. from there you can figure out the transaction. all i'm saying is that i am putting someone on my blocked id list.
posted on April 13, 2010 06:16:06 PM new
i read the whole thing yesterday and must have missed the seller id because it was so close to his real name.
as for blocking someone, i'd rather not say... i might be sued for not allowing someone to shop on my listings. oh wait, can that be interpreted as I am blocking someone in particular??? If so, I will have to retract that statement.
posted on April 13, 2010 08:05:49 PM new
good point... and even more sad that a seller would go through the trouble to sue someone for something like this. i guess in troubled times, even attorneys are looking for crumbs.
if i was an attorney in this situation i would ask myself whether it was worth the cost, time, and effort to put yourself through this. you risk losing the case and looking bad in the end. then again, bad publicity is publicity.
it would also be difficult for someone to put a price on the cost of such feedback. obviously the seller continued to sell after the incident. how do you measure success or failure and cause/effect?
does this attorney report his income from eBay sales as a business? if so, is his business name eric1313?
does a user id on ebay actually constitute identity, or does eBay own the rights to the name chosen by the eBay user and in effect the bidder defamed an ebay ID? is there any precedent on eBay or other venue for this?
what exactly did the bidder say that defamed the seller? was it "bad seller" or "he has the ethics of a used car salesman" that is defamatory? if the seller misrepresented the item, and didn't follow eBay/paypal guidelines in shipping the item (3 seperate shipments), I would probably guess that doesn't make a good seller.
in the end, it is eBay and its community that will suffer more than the buyer or seller. if i hadn't used eBay before and read this horror story, I would seriously consider whether it was worth the trouble.
the bidder should set up a legal defense fund.
[ edited by shagmidmod on Apr 13, 2010 08:07 PM ]
posted on April 14, 2010 05:46:30 AM new
Shag,
many lawyers are not gainfully employed,many hustle as soon as they get out of law school if they are not hired by law firms.
Some lawyer is making money in this case ,7k!
*
There is no 'Global savings glut',only wild horses and loose bankers.
posted on April 14, 2010 07:20:04 PM new
I am curious - would anyone post in the same, devil may care manner, if they had to use their real names.
It is very easy to hide behind such names as milkywaymule, rosebudmaggie, educator16, and of course, such well known names as joe27565413. Who knows the poster? Jump in, post the trash, and run.
Is the statement true? Who cares? No one will ever know the person behind the alias.
This time the buyer gave feedback with a twist, and got caught up in more than he bargained for.
This board has been filled with moans about feedback left by buyers. Of course, no one wanted to learn how to do pro se litigation, or hire a lawyer to clear their reputation.
The seller did us all a favor. He had the ability and means to fight back against defamatory comments left against him. Perhaps, in the future, buyers will think twice before firing off defamatory comments against a seller.
The publicity regarding this action is helpful to all of us.
posted on April 15, 2010 06:08:41 AM new
Well,the seller sold a timeclock from his grandfather attic and the buyer thought he could use it in his business and it ended up costing him 7k.
If the seller is so concerned over his reputation ,then he should have second thought on selling grandpa stuff in a public venue such as Ebay.
If the buyer cares about keeping time in his business,should he be buying an attic clock from a stranger in a cyber flea market?
Me thinks there is more to what we read,why would anyone spend 7k for a $44 transaction ?
This is more of an issue for Ebay,for years folks wonder why Ebay allow personal comments ,Ebay should change the feedback system so buyer can rate the product and service,not the seller.
*
There is no 'Global savings glut',only wild horses and loose bankers.
[ edited by hwahwa on Apr 15, 2010 06:24 AM ]
posted on April 15, 2010 07:33:42 AM new
yes, we complain about buyers and other sellers for that matter. $15K for feedback like that? I'm not sure where that gets justified. Personally, if I got that feedback I wouldn't be happy... but even if I had the means to go through the trouble of the courts... I wouldn't.
I couldn't disagree more with the assumption this is good for eBay. Bad publicity for eBay is never good for sellers.
Here is a link to blatant libel against my business: http://portland.citysearch.com/profile/42895423/portland_or/shag_midcentury_modern.html
Most of the information in this is completely false. The person did buy a 9ft leather sofa and buffet from us. His wife wanted the sofa real bad... but he was concerned about its length. He loved the buffet. They compromised, and when they moved into their house the sofa was too long at 9 feet. They had someone pick it up and move it to a garage until they moved into their new house. A month later he called us and asked us how to remove mildew from the sofa. Cindy called him back and spoke with him while I was there. He did want us to go look at the sofa, but we were leaving out of town for a week on a buying trip. She gave him suggestions and told him to call us back if he had any problems. No calls. He never once asked for a refund, or asked us to do anything other than ask for suggestions to remove mildew and to come and see it.
Next thing was this outlandish story about mildew, a half gallon of mice droppings, the sofa being from the Bay area (which I am still clueless how he came up with that story, the sofa was purchased just outside of Portland). About a month after his call I saw he posted the sofa on Craigslist because it was too long for their living room. He even went as far as to state he purchased it at our store. No mention of mildew or other problems in his craigslist ad. I wish I had done a pdf printout of the Craigslist ad. Then he went to Yelp and City Search and left this review of our business.
Our items are sold as is, no refunds or exchanges. This is typical for antiques/collectibles. If you want to see the sofa, here is a link: http://shagmidcentury.com/Items_Sold.php
it is the black leather sofa on page 11.
posted on April 15, 2010 08:08:17 AM new
I read the review. As to the facts surrounding the transaction, only you and the buyer know, what is accurate.
The feedback left does not rise to a defmatory statement. The buyer did not write that you are a "scumbag" or a "slime bag" store owner, or even "Bad seller; he has the ethics of a used car salesman."
Nor did he write - Slime bag store owners are always looking for their next target to make a buck on. I would know, as I have worked with many store owners (similar to what was written in post #2).
posted on April 15, 2010 08:24:51 AM new
Bill, though they didn't direct "name calling", etc.. it doesn't discount libel.
From Wiki: Defamation—also called calumny, vilification, slander (for transitory statements), and libel (for written, broadcast, or otherwise published words)—is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, or nation a negative image.
posted on April 15, 2010 08:48:21 AM new
Thank you for the Wiki definition. However, I had the rules for Defamation pounded into my head by some great professors. Further, I would never go to court with a definition of a complex rule obtained from non-legal sources.
I have no reason to doubt your facts regarding the sofa transaction. If you believe that you have been harmed by statements from the sofa buyer, why not let the courts decide?
posted on April 15, 2010 10:34:22 AM new "Nor did he write - Slime bag store owners are always looking for their next target to make a buck on. I would know, as I have worked with many store owners (similar to what was written in post #2)."
I agree, Kozersky. The statement above is in fact more defamatory than the buyer's feedback.
In any case, it's best to just state the facts regarding the transaction and let the reader draw his own conclusion.
