posted on July 15, 2001 02:35:33 PM
Queen Victoria, upon obtaining the throne of England, was advised of the situation of homosexuality and the laws. She was informed that both men and women were guilty of practicing same-sex and that a moral law needed to be put into place to punish the offenders. However, the Queen was so shocked by this notion of homosexuality that she could well believe that men would do such a thing, but not women! In the end, male homosexuality was outlawed in England; whereas, since female homosexuality was not illegal, it gained the status of legality. Homosexual men were ostacized and shunned, for women, everyoe just shrugged it off.
But this is not about homosexuality, but of Men's Rights.
Men's Rights.
That's right -- you heard me correctly -- Men's Rights.
It exists in many states and manifests itself into diverse political groups.
Here in Oregon, there are several of them and there is a good reason why.
In Oregon's past, back when a woman had the domestic role, men were routinely given custody of children in divorce cases. The thinking there was that man, being the breadwinner, was in a better position to support the children than a woman could. Women then seldom made as much as 50-cents on the dollar in jobs that men did.
In the late 1970's, there came a reversal not just of men and women's roles, but in custody cases as well. Oregon justices tried to compensate by automatically thrusting custody of the kids onto women. There were even some cases where the women did not want to take the kids and the father did, but the courts refused to even consider what the parents wanted and forced the arrangement of women with the kids.
What turned out to be the case was that Oregon because very famous as the state that a woman kidnapping her kids from the lawful guardian of the father should run to. Lawyers from around the country were advising women to do this. And they were right. Any woman who kidnapped "custodial interference", a federal felony punishable up to 5 years in prison, automatically received custody in Oregon. The rightful guardian, upon coming to the state of Oregon, would have his parental rights severaly limited so that he could not take his kids back. In ten out of ten cases, the woman received full custody of the kids.
This inequality and sensibility in the law courts in Oregon created several nationally known Men's Rights organization, dedicated to fighting this injustice. As part of helping fathers wrangle the one-sided court system here, they encouraged men to pay their support, no matter how unfair the rulings and treatment was. Because of the effectiveness of Men's Rights groups in Oregon it is becoming more even and sensible in court matters pertaining to child custody, but still pro-female.
Nevertheless, the double standards did not stop there. Oregon, like most states in the nation, had a prison population that was more than 99% males. Women's prisons back when I came here in 1980 were little more than simple dormitories, not capable of \anything other than minor security and there were less than 100 beds for women in the whole state prison system. Contrast that with the 10,000 beds for men. Men's Rights organization has pushed for equality in sentencing guidelines. Just because the perpetrator is female, she should not get a lesser sentence than a man would for the same offence. And because of men's Rights efforts, new Women's prisons were created to handle the inflow of long-term, high security sentences.
Another aspect of Men's Rights is to stop defamation from stereotyping. To say Deadbeat Dad to ignore the Deadbeats who are female. To say Deadbeat Dad implies that only men are so callous as to not pay their support. In a state where many men have so recently been victimized by the judicial system in domestic matters -- myself included, it only makes the problems here much worse.
Instead, why not talk about Deadbeat Parents?
Yes, Deadbeat Parents is not gender-specific. It labels the problem makers, but does not single out one side as being guilty of the offence.
What prompted my sudden outburst of anger and protest against the usage of this defamatory, derogatory term in AW's forum? Besides slamming men in general, a precedent was set to me just this last week or so on AW
where I innocently used the label "lezbo" in the title. I was fully and truly unaware that this was a derogatory word or deemed offensive to anyone. One moderator re-titled the thread to delete the offending label and another admonished me for using the term and to not put derogatory terms in my title threads -- like as if I would knowingly do such a thing to begin with.
There you have it. If I can be scolded for misusing a word, then that standard has to be applied to everyone else equally. I am NOT asking that saabsister be slammed for unknowingly putting that term into the title, but that I expect that the tread should get equal treatment. I know that moderators can and do make up their own rules it seems, and I have no problem with that -- I only demand that such rules be enforced equally.
I know that some of the facts I stated above might be a bit off in exact percentages, but the reality of the situation is not in doubt, nor is the history in Oregon.
I hope that clears up the matter for everyone.
I apologize if I offended anyone in my protests.
Even republicans.
edited for UBB
[ edited by Borillar on Jul 15, 2001 02:36 PM ]
posted on July 15, 2001 04:38:52 PM
Well, you intended to use offensive language so I couldn't honestly find it otherwise. But I do accept your apology.
Although I used the word "deadbeat" in reference to "parents", I was not aware that the word was considered offensive to anyone when referring to "dads".
Maybe it would be more appropriate to use the expression, "delinquent dads"? Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong because I really don't know.
posted on July 15, 2001 05:36:07 PM
Boy, saabsister did you ever think this would happen just from posting an subject that's in the news? I bet not.
Borillar - Everyone has sensitivities and 'terms' that bother them. It wouldn't have hurt for you to just express that you found this term objectionable, as you have now done. Helping us to better understand where you're coming from.
But to protest because the term 'deadbeat dads' is used and then compare it to being the same as using the term lezbo, is hard (for me) to understand.
The article from the Washington Post used the term, are you writing them to state your objection? It (the term) is being used by many in the media, but I'd be surprise to hear any of them writing or speaking on the air and using the term lezbo.
To me, it's just not the same. But then....that's just one persons opinion.
And I do understand why you might ask others to consider using the term non-paying parent/deadbeat parent, etc. as you have done.
posted on July 15, 2001 05:51:59 PM
Borillar, 'lezbo' wasn't the only thing you used, you used a list of racial slurs also, which I don't know what had to do with this
gender issue that has you all upset about.
I've heard and seen the 'F' word a lot, so that doesn't offend me.
so seems everyones being PC about it, calling them 'non paying parent'.... whatever
posted on July 15, 2001 06:10:24 PM
Uhhh.....wasn't the person in question (from the story) a male and a father and a deadbeat? Hence the term Deadbeat Dad?
I've got no problem using the term deadbeat MOM (and there ARE deadbeat MOTHERS) when discussing women who are mothers and a deadbeat.
But in *this* case the story was about a deadbeat dad.
posted on July 15, 2001 06:19:01 PM
I started the now locked thread on the Wisconsin Supreme Court ruling this morning before leaving town for the day. I picked the terminolgy used in the Post article and hoped to return later in the day and join the discussion, but instead returned to find the thread locked because it degenerated over my use of the term "deadbeat dads." I apologize to you Borillar if the term offended you - I realize there are deadbeat moms as well. I don't know if what you said in return to me was equally offensive since that is now gone. Thank you NearTheSea for resurrecting the topic.
posted on July 15, 2001 06:34:53 PM
to tell ya the truth you guys, I see nothing wrong with saying deadbeat dad, and it DID pertain to one, or deadbeat mom if that were the case.. I don't know why people have to go ballistic over PC terminology
even Democrats -sorry couldn't help that
(and that was just to the poster who started this one, and said even republicans
posted on July 16, 2001 07:27:26 AM
I am very surprized at everyone's lack of experience with this term. As far as I knew, it has been quite some time since it has been generally recognized that the term "Deadbeat Dads" is derogatory and demeaning to men in general. The man in the article is a Deadbeat Parent, as would also a female be. By putting a gender slant on it, you are demeaning to that gender in this instance. I DID ask nicely at first and received no response. I felt no compulsion to explain anything, as since I was unaware that the term 'Lezbo' was derogatory in that ink above, please note that not a single person tried to expain it to me (until the mods stepped in). Double-standard there. Either someone has to explain why they are offended at AW or they don't -- make up your minds.
As to the content of my posts, like I said: I did ask nicely at first. No response. So I elevated it a bit. Still no response. So I elevated it a lot. Finally got a response. I do not know all of the posts in that 'Lezbo' incident, since a couple were deleted, but it seems that only nastiness is the way to get across the point here on AW.
sp.
[ edited by Borillar on Jul 16, 2001 07:30 AM ]
posted on July 16, 2001 08:07:18 AM
[i]How many women come on to men only to get pregnant and then split? How many men end up finding out about a child being born after the split-up, only to discover that all that the mother wanted was a cheap way to get herself into a one-parent family situation?
[/i]
And the above a quote from the originator of this thread.
T
posted on July 16, 2001 08:58:25 AM
Borillar what was wrong with the title...
saabsister started it because the article out of the Post was entitled
Wisconsin Deadbeat Dad Case Tests the Rights to Parenthood
Right there in an article from a newspaper.
Which post need elevating to get a response?
The one with n***er, ch**k, chr**t k**ler etc in it? (which I don't see anywhere where those words have anything to do with 'deadbeat', parenting or gender.)
posted on July 16, 2001 09:20:36 AM
NearTheSea: so if I go to a Neo-Nazi web site and copy one of their headlines; such as Niggers and Fags Take Over America!, does that make it right? Simply because an established newspaper uses a derogatory and demeaning term does not make it right.
It is not merely a dirty slang word either. What it does to demean people of that gender is because it creates a mind-set. Does the Republican Blather Machine hype work? By calling a delinquent father a Deadbeat Dad instead of a Deadbeat Parent, it is like saying, "Well, black people DO have darker skin than ours, so it's OK to call them Darkies" according to your logic.
Look at all of the nonsense that people believe coming from it. For instance, by placing the blame for a crime on just one gender is to stigmatize that gender. And if you look at laws meant to enforce child support, some of it is gender-specific and does not cause enforcement equally between both genders. Much of it is geared towards forcing MALES into paying up, but enforcement of females as a gender committing this crime is not being addressed in the same manner. What kind of logic does that make? Why is it that way? I agree with those political groups that think that is comes from stigmatizing males in our society for this crime.
I know that sounds weird and bazaar and I hope that it does, because it should be to any rational person. But believe me when I say that it does happen: that is unfairly characterizes men as being a target for law enforcement, we see that here in Oregon every day. I'm simply assuming that other states have the same problem.
posted on July 16, 2001 10:07:32 AM
Apparently you don't object to the word deadbeat, since you use it in conjunction with parent. That leaves dad & mom to take issue with.
Like it or not, though dad & mom are gender specific...as it happens, those miserable deadbeats tend to be one or the other. And if deadbeat dads are more numerous...well, that's just the way it goes. I see no reason to keep the gender of the parent a secret. In fact, it would be interesting if someone could find statistics on the subject...
posted on July 16, 2001 10:09:21 AM
Here we go again
N***ers and F*gs Take Over America!
is quite a different topic and subject than
Wisconsin Deadbeat Dad Case Tests the Rights to Parenthood
I took the liberty in replacing some letters with * because it sounded bad.... to me, anyway.
I think I can be rational, and yes, it sounds a bit bizzare and weird, to be posting (in the other thread, now locked) what you posted. I don't think I'll ever understand it, sorry.
posted on July 16, 2001 10:18:24 AM
James, you may not realize it, but gender bias works both ways. I believe that the Women's Movement made a very correct observation about the label s that we use. to add the suffix 'man' to the end of the name of a profession really does stigmatize any woman who attempts to gain entry into that field of endevour. Policeman, congressman, watchman, and so on. It sets up a mentality that creates a bias that is often very hard to overcome.
How about it for men as well? Yes. If it works for women, then we need to be applying the same standard for men for the same reasons.
"Bad Boys, Bad Boys -- what'cha gonna do?" - theme from the TV show Cops -
Why not Bad Girls, Bad Girls?
How long would that have lasted, I wonder?
How about starting off the gender bigotry to our youngest early on?
"What are Girls made of? Sugar and Spice and Everything Nice. That's what Girls are made of.
"What are Boys made of? Snaps and Snails and Puppy Dog Tails. That's what Boys are made of.
Girls are made of everything NICE; whereas, boys are made of things far less pleasant than sweet spices and sugar? What kind of crap is that? Gender bigotry!
James, I think that we, as a rational species, should do a double-take when hearing slamming of doors as much as slamming of genders themselves.
And if women, rightfully, pursue equality in the nomenclature of our society, then men should also be made aware that their rights can easily be eroded as well.
posted on July 16, 2001 10:48:05 AM
Boy, this politically correct crap thing is getting to the point that you really can't say anything to anybody anymore without offending somebody. Seems you're damned if ya do, damned if ya don't - kinda makes ya just wanna live in a cave.
This isn't directed to you Borillar - I just haven't been around here lately and was catching up.
posted on July 16, 2001 11:24:00 AM
Hmmm, why do I suspect that, if the phrase had been "deadbeat Republicans" instead of "deadbeat Dads", Borillar probably wouldn't have objected.
posted on July 16, 2001 11:39:36 AM
Borillar, I think a healthy male psyche isn't bothered by 'male bashing' ala the jokes that some women seem to find so hilarious. See, historically and down to the present men have dominated nearly every facet of life and industry. We're note even 50%. So if as it stands now men gobble up, let's say, 78% of the opportunites available instead of 99.9% (the way it's always been) I really don't think we have very much now to complain about.
posted on July 17, 2001 07:04:42 PM"Borillar, I think a healthy male psyche isn't bothered by 'male bashing' ala the jokes that some women seem to find so hilarious."
I agree. That isn't the point, however. The problem is that it creates a mindset, one that can cause problems for people. In this case, by gender. When it comes time for solutions, having heard the term "deadbeat DAD" so many times, the focus of any solution turns towards males. By nature, the females who also do not pay child support won't be associated with it and won't get the same focus. Do you think that this is good, right, or fair?
"Yes, by all means, let's eliminate the words "Dad" and "Mom" from Engish vocabulary. "
I can understand your frustration. It was awfully hard for many people to stop saying nigger every time they saw a black person. Over time, you may even come to understand why associating men with delinquency of child support payments is wrong to do.
posted on July 17, 2001 07:26:18 PM
bobbi: You are SO correct! Don't know WHAT I was thinking. Must have just been so disgusted by the last part of Borillar's message I just lost my head.
posted on July 17, 2001 07:30:42 PM
That is much, much better lotsafuzz - now don't you go insulting sisters anymore! We siblings are all equal, ya know!!
