One for men and one for women. The "outer" fence separates those praying from tourist only wishing to make photos. Inside the fence is considered a holy area for undisturbed prayer.
~Corrected link. Sorry.
[ edited by jt on Jul 20, 2001 11:48 PM ]
posted on July 21, 2001 01:53:35 PM
You may think it picky but I notice that there are about as many women as men but they have an area about half the size as the men do so they are rather jammed together at the wall. Perhaps this is not always the case but it was about an even split for the number in attendabce when I looked although it was 11:30 at night. That is so middle eastern - I am surprised the women get anything at all really.
posted on July 22, 2001 09:17:51 AM
I have noticed that too.
It is so interestng to watch. Sometimes there are crowds. Or they will set up tables and chairs so you have to wonder "what are they doing?" Other times there will be one lone figure there late at night or before sunrise, on their knees with their hands raised on the wall and their head bowed. It will often be a woman but sometimes a man. I see a person like that displaying such emotion and I sit here wondering what personal agony or urgent request has brought them there.
Though some come to pray ritually, others seem to come in such passion.
The view might become heartwrenching if things continue to progress in the direction that they appear to be moving in that area. Or then again it might become a very empty place. Don't know.
T
posted on July 28, 2001 08:33:49 PM
Look at the wall now.
What is the Jewish holiday being celebrated and what is it's meaning?
Anyone know?
T
Oh, I found it. It isn't a holiday at all but a period of mourning. Sorry for that terrible mistake.
The Three Weeks - from Sunday, July 8, through Sunday, July 29, 2001 - are a period of national mourning, during which we focus on disasters that befell the Jewish People throughout history.
[ edited by jt on Jul 28, 2001 08:37 PM ]
posted on July 29, 2001 08:53:05 AM
Terri - Have you seen the movie I recommended in the movie thread? Or, maybe you have read the book that it was based on, by Peter Matthiessen.
posted on July 29, 2001 09:32:58 AM
Terri - You have shared some of your personal life-home schooling, reading, and of course religion. But, I'm curious, do you have any kind of social life (besides church related)?
I know it's none of my business, and of course you don't have to answer. But, you seem to be so isolated from the real world. Is it because of where you live? I live in CA, and your life is so different than what I'm used to seeing.
posted on July 29, 2001 04:33:48 PM
That location is pretty important to a lot of people. Sad to say most of them feel somewhere from deep suspician to outright hatred for the other people the site is sacred to, so it is a potential flash point.
Three temples were supposed to have been on the mount before the mosque but nobody is real sure exactly where the walls were and there is no way now they will do a real archeological dig. Even some of the born again Christians see the site as figuring in future events in a literal way.
posted on July 29, 2001 07:53:53 PM
Violence there all day long. Many injuries, but, no deaths at the wall. However, as usual that was not the story as fighting continued elsewhere.
posted on July 29, 2001 09:22:36 PM
"Why does religion entail so much evil, malevolence, intolerance and war?...it's certainly beyond my comprehension. "
Well it is like the belt buckles on German officers in WWII - "Got mit us"
If God is with us he is NOT with the other guy.
If God is not with the other guy then what is he doing with all that nice land and loot?
Obviously something God would want us to correct and if God is a little slow to smite them from the heavens we will just need to speed things along a little.
You notice how historically nobody ever invades some hell hole like Somalia to convert the heathens there where the real estate values are real low and there is no gold or oil? Coincidence?
In WWII the Catholics and Lutherans on both sides were supporting their members fighting slaughtering their church mates from the other country and in the end whichever side won they could say they supported them.
The idea that they got up in their pulpits and objected to the war enmass was a cloak they pulled over themselves later spotted with the blood of a few who spoke up as if they had been supported by the majority. Mostly the churches were delighted to get rid of the Jews who they regarded as having Christs blood on their hands. They have had to confess the Halocost a crime because of the unrelenting voice of the Jews who have not let them forget it or it would have been swept under the rug. The Jews are still yelling for an accounting for the support of the churches for Hitler, as they should. The Pope last year issued an apology for excesses of individuals who have repressed others in the name of the church but made it clear that theologically the church is incapable of error. The whole apology is as weasal worded as Clinton's admissions about whoring around. They have apologized for persecuting Galileo and the Muslims in the Crusades but I guess it is too soon and uncomfortable for something as recent as WWII.
Such a hollow apology is more of an indictment than a real apology. A real one would be an admission of such deep and perpetual corruption as to admit no right to exist. It would be sincere as a suicide note.
posted on July 29, 2001 09:56:17 PM
Personal relationships with honorable individuals. Organizations mostly screw it up because they dilute the blame.
For example parole boards should only release prisoners to their own homes as half -way houses in case they make a mistake. They would be more careful.
Even when you talk about using an atom bomb there is always an individual who has to engage a firing button or weapons release - but the whole military service and political party takes responsibility so he feels he is just following orders.
posted on July 29, 2001 11:34:04 PM
Choco, I don't really have a church social life but the grocery store in town fired the manager that didn't offer to carry my groceries to the car and got a new one that did offer today, day #1. Got that tid bit today when I went for milk and bread. I gave him the drill...asked for his complete work history (car salesman), where does he live (in the city), mother's maiden name (confidential), etc, etc.
I see the postmaster (who has a social life similar to mine) twice a week and the clerk in Texaco and I are on first name basis. Is that what you mean by social life? I don't work OR live in the city OR smoke pot anymore so...not too many people on the bench in front of the hardware store on any given day. Must be that "No spitting" law.
I am interested in the site as well as Jewish history in general for several reasons.
1. Jews and Christians share our history and the same God. Jewish history is Christian history. I want to learn much more about it. I still have a long way to go.
2. It is one major site of make or break peace in the world.
3. It has meaning in prophecy.
4. I have to learn in order to teach and that includes history as well as current events.
5. I am curious and easily amused?
I did not read the other thread choco. Did not see the movie review. I read about one or two threads here at any given time.
There are no less than 10 threads about it on another hig traffic board that I read. I thought perhaps someone here would be interested. Maybe not.
Sad to say most of them feel somewhere from deep suspician to outright hatred for the other people the site is sacred to
were actually the case, I was wondering why Israel handed over control of the site to the Wakf, the Moslem Religious Trust in 1967.
Since I was 2 years old, I pretty much missed that incident and have a lot of catching up to do. Thus I poke and prod looking for answers that I can not find easily.
T
Jews who they regarded as having Christs blood on their hands.
Jewish history is Christian history. The covenant with Abraham on behalf of the Jews was also the covenant with all Christians. Jesus was a Jew. To know Judiasm is to know Christ's earthly life, education, and upbringing. God chose the Jewish nation through which to bring Salvation to all the world. That is how I see Christians viewing the Jews. Not as adversaries or with blame at all.
Maybe I should come back with more gossip about the new grocery store manager instead?
[ edited by jt on Jul 30, 2001 01:12 AM ]
posted on July 30, 2001 01:24:25 AM
I think that a small measure of tolerance for the Jews is a very recent tack for the churches and mostly forced on them by having their noses pushed in the mess they made.
Yes Christians have often denied and rejected all the history of what happened before Christ. Look at how common "New Testement" only bibles were very recently. The whole of the Hebrew scriptures was rejected as irrelavant even though they are quoted and alluded to frequently in the Greek scriptures.
Would not mind hearing about the Grocery Store Manager also!
posted on July 30, 2001 02:13:08 AM
gravid, That has never been my experience. There are NT only Bibles but not because OT is rejected...in my experience. I have only seen them ever used because it makes them smaller, easier to pocket, cheaper to print, and the NT is (sometimes) more frequently read. They are often given to people who are completly new to Christianity as a "starting point". There may be churches that reject the OT but I have never ever ever heard of one. Can't even imagine it. In my understanding of scripture, Jesus is alluded to in Gen. 1:1. The Jews of course disagree.
Are you willing to disclose your religious background/belief? If not, no problem.
As a side note because I often see confusion over this issue, Catholicism is about as far from Protestant Christianity as is Islam...in my opinion.
Hmmm... not much more on the grocery guy at the moment. BUT Friday night I made a SPECIAL trip to Texaco to buy a soda. There were 3 police cars, 2 ambulances and a rescue team with a big truck. Seems that some guys had a fight with a beer bottle. Did pretty serious damage to one guy's face. STUFF HAPPENS here...like at sunset the one red light always starts to blink yellow...but once in a while there is a train wreck or THE bank even gets robbed. If there is any more employee turn over in town you will be the FIRST to know. Breaking Headline News.
T
posted on July 30, 2001 05:50:07 AM
Wow that traffic light - the kids must get together so they can go eeewwwwuh when it changes.
I have Christian beliefs but I would rather not ID the particular Church with which I associate myself because although they are kind, nice folks sometimes I am an embarrassment to them. They don't try to push me to do anything that would offend my conscience - indeed they will tell me that I should follow my conscience even if others don't feel the same limits. If there is someone in need they will help even though charity is not their principle cause, and if someone comes to a service in jeans or of some ethnic group that has no other people there, handicapped or a traveler they are made to feel as welcome as anyone else.
posted on July 30, 2001 06:21:32 AM
"As a side note because I often see confusion over this issue, Catholicism is about as far from Protestant Christianity as is Islam...in my opinion."
When I was in high school, my best friend, a Southern Baptist, asked me, in all sincerity, if Catholics were Christians. She also didn't understand that she was a Protestant ("I'm not a Protestant, I'm a Baptist!" )
Put it this way, Terri, and the analogy is more apt: Catholicism is about as far from Protestant Christianity as Judaism is from Islam.
There is a reason Protestants are called Protestants, you can't escape the fact that Protestant Christianity has its roots in Catholicism.
posted on July 30, 2001 07:54:57 AM
Donny, many people don't realize it, but the Baptist's didn't stem from the Protestant Reformation. That is why many Baptists don't consider themselves to be "Protestants". The Baptists, or Ana Baptists (re-baptisers) can trace their roots all the way back to John the Baptist.
posted on July 30, 2001 08:23:16 AM
That's not the way I understand it, Meya. It's also not the way that www.anabaptist.org understands it, as they say that:
"The era of the 16th-century Protestant Reformation in Europe spawned a number of radical reform groups, among them the Anabaptists."
Any sect can consider itself to be closest to the original teachings. However, as I understand it, historically the line looks roughly like this - Eastern Orthodoxy/Catholicism/Protestantism
posted on July 30, 2001 08:30:39 AM
Terri, You state,
"""Choco, I don't really have a church social life but the grocery store in town fired the manager that didn't offer to carry my groceries to the car and got a new one that did offer today, day #1. Got that tid bit today when I went for milk and bread. I gave him the drill...asked for his complete work history (car salesman), where does he live (in the city), mother's maiden name (confidential), etc, etc.
I see the postmaster (who has a social life similar to mine) twice a week and the clerk in Texaco and I are on first name basis.
Is that what you mean by social life I don't work OR live in the city OR smoke pot anymore so...not too many people on the bench in front of the hardware store on any given day. Must be that "No spitting" law""""
No, that is not what I would call a social life. When you say, "I gave him the drill"
I would call that rude.
posted on July 30, 2001 08:52:46 AM
Donny, I was going by some old articles and papers I read years ago. Perhaps whoever wrote what I read has a different view or opinion. Ah well...Maybe I'll dig those papers up and take another look at them. Maybe I won't...
I have never been to the web site you mention, I'll have to take a look when time permits.
posted on July 30, 2001 09:10:16 AM
We really don't consider business relationships to be social, although we have people we do social and business with both.
We have friends who have similar interests and get together with them for dinner out or at one another's homes. Sometimes we take day trips to museams, shows or fairs. Sometimes we take shopping trips and go to antique malls and shops together.
We have a friend who builds museam quality models of sailing ships and we meet him at a Mongolian BBQ for lunch a few weeks ago to chat and wanted to go see the tall ships come into Port Huron together but could not work our times out so we went seperate.
We have friends who had us to a picnic last month and their teenage boys did a concert under a tent for everyone and there was a huge pot luck and volly vball for everyone.
That is social. We have very little family to do such things with now.
posted on July 30, 2001 09:57:21 AM
Here is another Live Web Cam I've come across in my travels. Right now they are upgrading the cameras, so a fixed camera view is up on the site.
For anyone interested in the Loch Ness Monster, it's a gotta see site.
Breaking Headline News.