rawbunzel
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posted on January 2, 2002 07:52:01 PM new
I have hard time with this concept. Breeding animals just to use their liver or kidney for humans to use. I know I eat them but somehow that seems normal we are all ~after all ~ part of the food chain..their misfortune to be lower on it than we are. BUT to grow them to kill them for one organ seems bizarre. No other animal does that. We would be the only ones. Unless Tigers kill people just to get their testicles or something. I haven't ever heard of that but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen I suppose.
I do feel that there are some humans out there that might do better with a pigs brain.........
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saabsister
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posted on January 2, 2002 08:03:01 PM new
Yeah, I have a hard time with that concept too. I'm a social carnivore, meaning that as a guest I don't expect the host to cook to my dietary quirks. But I seldom buy meat in the grocery store - only the occasional package of sushi. Sometimes I'll eat meat when we go out to a restaurant, but I try to find other protein sources as a rule. So the idea of raising animals strictly to harvest their organs is repugnant to me.
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twinsoft
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posted on January 2, 2002 08:07:39 PM new
Yes, the idea is repellant. But we already raise pigs for slaughter. I dare say one's opinion might change if one depended on a new organ to survive.
If I had to choose between a pig and my beloved Bunzey, there would be no contest. Not even close.
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hjw
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posted on January 2, 2002 08:10:16 PM new
I have a friend who is a vegetarian and I am sure that she would die rather than accept an organ from an animal bred for an organ source.
I am uneasy with the concept of breeding animals for use as organ sources but I believe that it is the right thing to do.
Without animal experimentation, our health and life span today would be severely compromised.
It's a tough question.
Helen
[ edited by hjw on Jan 3, 2002 12:20 PM ]
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rawbunzel
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posted on January 2, 2002 08:12:32 PM new
Twinny!.....Pooter!
Did Enchanted dump you or is my string dangling? 
I think I might feel better about this if the pigs were going to be slaughtered to eat as well as use the organs but just to grow them to kill for one organ doesn't sit right. Not being in the position of needing a organ I don't know how I would feel if that were my only choice but I believe I would still not think it was a great thing.
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saabsister
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posted on January 2, 2002 08:17:36 PM new
One of my objections is how so many animals are raised - in crowded conditions with little ability to roam. I might feel differently if,as rawbunzel said, the animal was used for food as well and raised in a humane(boy, that's an odd word choice for this subject) manner.
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rawbunzel
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posted on January 2, 2002 08:20:24 PM new
Yes, Saabsister. And if they would slaughter them humanely. We should be kind to the animals even if our intent is to eat them. They deserve to have a good life and an easy,peaceful death. JMHO.
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enchanted
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posted on January 2, 2002 08:24:16 PM new
Well personally I don't see how raising pigs in order to use the liver and kidneys for food is any different than using the organs from the same pig to help us through a medical problem. If we didn't already eat pigs, then I'd have a problem with it. But we already eat the liver and kidneys (ever eat pate or steak and kidney pie?)
I understand how the vegetarians would feel differently, but I'm not vegetarian so this doesn't bother me at all. Better to use the pork liver and kidneys than using organs from executed prisoners in China.
The scary part to me is that the pig organs are similar enough to ours that they are compatible in a transplant operation... how close is our DNA? maybe too close for comfort!
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sweetpotato
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posted on January 2, 2002 10:37:12 PM new
I don't have a problem with this at all but then I've never understood people who treat their pets like their children either 
My father had double bypass and valve replacement surgery 4 years ago. His heart valves were replaced with those from a cow (we were originally told they were coming from a pig but I can't remember why the last minute change). Dad had a whole herd of bovine related gifts from his twisted children waiting for him post-op.
If it comes down to choosing between not offending someone and having my father's life saved, I know which one I'm going to pick single everytime.
OMG! I just realised I'm agreeing with Twinsoft. I *must* love my father......
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krs
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posted on January 3, 2002 12:11:53 AM new
You only feel that way because you don't have to milk him.
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sweetpotato
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posted on January 3, 2002 12:55:50 AM new
He'd probably tell you I've milked him out of plenty over the years
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BittyBug
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posted on January 3, 2002 04:05:58 AM new
Hmmmmmmmmmm...interesting.
Please call me Charlotte so I don't have ta change my ID.
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fred
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posted on January 3, 2002 08:56:45 AM new
Pig heart valves & organs are as close to human organs as you get.
Pigs used & now cloned, are called mini-pigs. They are raised in a perfect controled enviroment.
The use of pig organs to replace human organs is now very common. Pig organ rejection rate, when transplanted in humans, is very low. Now with cloning, the rejection rate will be even less to none.
The size of the organ or valve can be controlled. ( this may have been why sweetpotato's father did not receive a pig valve. I'm so glad everthing went well). Which also could lead to the cloning of a complete heart that could be used in a human, along the liver and kidneys.
For those that raise Roses, flowers or garden, you may have applied fertilizer with the ingredients from one of these pigs.
Fred
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Borillar
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posted on January 3, 2002 11:33:09 AM new
Until cloned organs can be grown as replacements (not the whole human), I would much rather see pigs getting it than humans or human clones. Growing just a human heart from stem cells does not call for controversy, as the alternative of growing full human 'husks' and parting them out would be. In such a scenario, the clone at conception or shortly thereafter would have its forebrain and some other areas in there severed so that it could never be called 'alive' and it would 'grow-up' and make its organs available for the medical marketplace. Think that's too much of a horror? Just what did you think that the legal prescidence being set by stem cells this last summer was all about?
Pigs first, not humans!
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Valleygirl
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posted on January 3, 2002 11:55:32 AM new
I believe we should raise animals humanely. However, God gave us dominion over animals, be that meat, pulling plows, covering for our skin in cold weather, leather for shoes.
Not my name on ebay.
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REAMOND
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posted on January 3, 2002 03:17:12 PM new
If god gave us dominion over animals, I'd like to see a human and a hungry lion go at it and see who eats first. I think the Romans already tried this experiment.
Our development of tools gave us dominion over animals, before we developed tools we were as much the prey of animals as the hunter of animals.
Cloned human replacement parts will not be coming from brainless human drones. With the availibility of cross species genetic splicing, we will make pigs or other animals a genetic match for the growth of organs.
We may get to the point of actually growing the organs in vitro, just as we now do with human skin for burn patients.
But the interesting concept born out of this is that we will come to the conclusion that humans are their brain, not their body, as we make animals genetically like us except for the brain. Perhaps brainless human drones are where we are heading.
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hjw
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posted on January 3, 2002 04:47:04 PM new
"Perhaps brainless human drones are where we are heading."
That's a gruesome concept but certainly possible. In fact, some people may think we are already there. 
Helen
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Borillar
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posted on January 3, 2002 05:23:06 PM new
"Perhaps brainless human drones are where we are heading."
That's a gruesome concept but certainly possible. In fact, some people may think we are already there.
Helen
Worse than that are the people who vote for them!
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hjw
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posted on January 3, 2002 05:35:50 PM new
LOLOL!
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snowyegret
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posted on January 3, 2002 05:53:53 PM new
brainless human drones
Sounds like fodder for Planet of the Pigs. 
rawbunzel, it sounds yucky, but dialysis and bypass (among other things) are yuckier.
You have the right to an informed opinion
-Harlan Ellison
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enchanted
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posted on January 3, 2002 05:56:04 PM new
LOL Planet of the Pigs!
Sorry, carry on.
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BittyBug
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posted on January 4, 2002 11:55:34 AM new
How about clothing? I wear leather shoes/boots...though I don't wear fur.
Please call me Charlotte so I don't have ta change my ID.
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saabsister
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posted on January 4, 2002 12:17:01 PM new
Charlotte, I have bought leather shoes and an occasional belt. In the summer I wear canvas shoes. For dress-up, I wear vintage shoes - they may be leather but they're recycled. I bought my first pair of boots in ten years this winter and they are leather. I'm the type of person who buys a pair of shoes and wears them until they fall apart - no fashion plate here! I may purchase four pairs of leather shoes in a ten year span.
It used to be easier to buy shoes of man-made materials twenty years ago. Now there are so many cheap imports that no one seems to want to make leather substitutes. I try to buy the fewest animal products possible. I don't have a leather, fur, or down coat. I do have wool sweaters that I have knit myself with yarn bought from spinners I know. I'm certainly not perfect but try to do the best I can.
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BittyBug
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posted on January 4, 2002 12:28:18 PM new
Saabsister,
I don't buy an awful lot of leather products, but my shoes are leather or canvas...I hate plastic on my feet. I don't wear fur or use down products. I do eat meat, but not a lot of it.
I did do dialysis for 9 months. My daughter has done dialysis for four of the past five years, my daughter- in 0law has done dialysis for almost six years. I would, in a heart beat or a west coast minute, wear shoes of man made materials if it meant allowing someone to use an organ from an animal.
Please call me Charlotte so I don't have ta change my ID.
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saabsister
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posted on January 4, 2002 12:50:03 PM new
Charlotte. I have two sisters who will need heart valve replacements. I guess we all just try to do the best we can along the way. My hope is that the animals raised are treated well and killed humanely. ( I suspect, though can't prove, that chickens and cattle raised for food have the worst lives. )
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BittyBug
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posted on January 4, 2002 01:05:44 PM new
I agree that humane treatment is desirable.
I don't eat veal any more. I have a son who worked as a butcher for several years, and then as a meat-cutter for several more. I think that many animals intended for food are treated poorly, though not all. I think that part of it is a process of distancing from the animal, because you know what the goal is. I don't think I could raise animals for food...always vetoed it when the subject came up.
Please call me Charlotte so I don't have ta change my ID.
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hjw
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posted on January 4, 2002 03:02:25 PM new
Hi Charlotte!
My vegetarian friend will not eat anything that has a mother.
When she came for dinner, I thought that she would eat shrimp....but no...they have a mother too! LOL!
Helen
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