Further development and large scale manufacture of missile defence shield busting missiles will surely create many more much needed jobs for Russians, even though a viable missile defence shield which is capable of defending large areas/nations may be just a myth
It’s not a new cold war, it’s just healthy competition for the global weapons market.
posted on February 20, 2004 04:21:32 PM
Did you ever see the film, "ON THE BEACH" Austy? (Gregory Peck, Ava Gardner, Fred
Astaire starred in it. ) The northern hemisphere has blown itself to bits and the radiation hasn't yet hit Australia.
With a new arms race, maybe we'll get some great new movies...
posted on February 21, 2004 12:51:04 PM
By all means. Their ships are rusting, their troops unpaid and many close to mutiny. So of course their only recourse is "high tech". LOL
Even Dean and Clark would burst out laughing at this one.
posted on February 21, 2004 12:57:07 PM
Hope it works better than their space lab!
Hate to spend a lot of time and money running back an forth fixing it for them.
posted on February 21, 2004 02:59:52 PM Hope it works better than their space lab! Hate to spend a lot of time and money running back an forth fixing it for them.
Are you speaking of the Russians' Mir space station? The one that's been up there for over 10 years now? The one in which their cosmonauts have logged more space hours than ours ever have? The one they built when we didn't?
I'm sorry, but our space program is likely to go the way of the Beta tape if we aren't careful. The Beta system was the superior system hands down--but Sony failed spectacularly to take advantage of its superiority and eventually fell to the wayside & extinction. We may have gotten to the moon, and sent out some great probes, but essentially we are at a standstill, doing nothing much. We may find ourselves also rans in the future...
******
Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
posted on February 21, 2004 03:31:00 PM
Well, count me among those who would just as soon abandon our 'space program' anyway, Bunnicula. We've got plenty of things to explore and pay for right here on earth; frankly, it galls me every time we send up some multi-billion-dollar piece of technology while there are people here in America living in abject poverty and squalor. The two space shuttle tragedies (not to mention the Apollo and/or? Gemini tragedies in the '60s -- was it Apollo 11 that caught fire on the launchpad and killed all three astronauts onboard? ) notwithstanding, <insert proper respect for those brave men and women who died> what the fuk is the space program doing that's more important than taking care of [some] things right here, right now?
posted on February 21, 2004 03:39:59 PM
The Russians are no longer an enemy. Unless they turn Communist again, it's unlikely that we'll have a major problem with them. It's the Chinese and North Koreans that we need to worry about.
posted on February 21, 2004 03:49:22 PM
There was a later one, Twelvepole... maybe Apollo 13? Gus Grissom died.
Edited to add: You're right, Twelvepole, on both Apollo flights. Somehow I had it in my head that the Apollo program was much further along (in its number sequence) when that fire occurred.
posted on February 21, 2004 03:54:37 PM
EAG, you seem to think that current world positions are static. There's nothing etched in stone that says China might not become a democracy, anymore than it is 'certain' that Russia won't return to communism. The Next Great Threat might be something neither you nor I ever dreamed of, and originate in some country not yet formed or not yet on our radar.
posted on February 21, 2004 03:57:24 PM
I imagine that 500 years ago there were plenty of people who thought that sending out explorers was a waste of time. Who believed that the money spent on such expeditions could have been better spent right there at home. Who thought the many deaths that occured on those voyages of discovery were utter waste that should never have occured...
....but we don't see it that way today, do we? We revere & admire those intrepid explorers. We benefit even now from what they discovered and brought home.
Technology from our space program has reaped great benefits to our everyday life and allowed the development of:
The most accurate topographical map of the Earth. This data is used to develop safer navigation techniques and better communication systems.
Ultraviolet protection suits for people with rare intolerance to UV light, known xeroderma pigmentosum.
Heart pump based on technology of space shuttle's fuel pumps. It's two inches long, one inch in diameter, and weighs less than four ounces.
New metal alloys based on research for the space station program.
Thermal protection blankets used in everything from fire fighters suits to survival gear for cold environments.
Robots and robotic software with wide-ranging uses that include auto-assembly plants, hazardous material handling, monitoring in dangerous environments, distribution and packaging facilities, etc.
Lightweight composite materials that benefit cars, airplanes, camping gear, etc.
Perfect protein crystals grown in zero gravity; used for more pure pharmaceutical drugs, foods and an assortment of other crystalline-based products including insulin for diabetes patients.
Commercial space communication systems for personal phones, computers, video transmissions, global positioning satellite systems, etc.
Improvements in energy use efficiency.
Smoke detectors for homes and commercial buildings.
Air purification systems used to by hospitals to provide pure oxygen for patients.
High-bandwidth and optical communications systems.
Technology for cordless tools such as drills, shrub trimmers and rechargeable flashlights.
Growth of zeolite crystals that have the potential to reduce the cost of petroleum and to store new types of fuels like hydrogen, which is abundant and pollution-free. This technology could be used in hydrogen-powered cars.
Fire-fighting systems that battle blazes with a fine mist, rather than environmentally harmful chemicals.
Sunglasses that block certain types of light - blue, violet, and ultraviolet - that could hurt the eyes. These sunglasses block the hazardous light, while allowing light that is good for vision to pass through the lens.
Solar power collection.
Air filtration systems that can kill all types of harmful bacteria - even anthrax -- and remove allergens from the air with better than 90 percent efficiency.
Ultralight solar concentrators that gather power from the Sun and efficiently convert it into electrical power. Applications for this technology on Earth are limitless.
Water purification methods using ions (an atom or group of atoms carrying a positive or negative electrical charge). Used in water filtering systems to remove lead, chlorine, bad taste and odor. Newer purification systems also remove contaminants such as perchlorate and nitrate.
"Power Pads" to cushion a horse's hooves, protecting against injuries and helping ease discomfort associated with brittle hooves or arthritis.
Devices for collection and real-time analysis of blood, and other bodily fluids, without the need for centrifugation. Huge potential for hospitals and for remote units to monitor individuals with health problems.
Lighter artificial limbs that are virtually indestructible; based on foam insulation used to protect the Shuttle's external fuel tank.
Computer-aided tomography (CATScan) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) for imaging the body and its organs.
Light-emitting diodes used in photodynamic therapy. These diodes are used in a form of chemotherapy that kills cancerous tumors.
Infrared sensors used in hand-held optical sensor thermometers. These devices can measure temperature in the ear canal in two seconds or less.
Devices used to diagnose and treat patients suffering head injury, stroke, chronic dizziness and disorders of the central nervous system.
Compact laboratory instruments for hospitals and doctor offices that analyze blood in 30 seconds what once took 20 minutes.
Technology which allows vehicles to transmit a signal back to a home base. Used to track and reassign emergency and public works vehicles; also track vehicle operations such as taxis, armored cars and vehicles carrying hazardous cargo. Now used to recover stolen vehicles.
Cutters using small explosive charges used by emergency rescue personnel to quickly extract accident victims.
Image-processing technology used remove defects due to image jitter, image rotation and image zoom in video sequences. Used by law enforcement agencies to improve crime-solving videos; doctors in medical imaging; scientific applications and even home video cameras.
Gas leak-detection system used by Ford in natural gas-powered car.
Method of labeling products with invisible and virtually indestructible markings - used on electronic parts, pharmaceuticals and livestock -- in fact it could be used on just about anything.
Fire resistant foam used as thermal and acoustical insulation in aerospace, marine and industrial products. Also used as for fire barriers, packaging and other applications requiring either high-temperature or very low-temperature insulation. Used by Boeing, Lockheed-Martin, and Airbus for for major weight savings in aircraft.
Hand-held camera which firefighters use to pinpoint the hotspots of wildfires.
Safer soldering base for jewelers using torches in jewelry assembly. Based on heat-shield tiles of shuttle instead of hazardous asbestos bases previously used.
Quick-connect fasteners used by firefighters and nuclear power-plant repair technicians.
Spray lube used for rust prevention; loosening corroded nuts; cleaning and lubricating guns and fishing reels; and lubricating and reducing engine friction.
World-wide television broadcasts.
Home insulation system which provides significant savings in home heating and cooling costs - uses technology of aluminum heat shield developed for Apollo spacecraft.
Laser technology used in artery catheters to spot areas of blockage and fire short bursts of laser beams to vaporize them - a "cool" laser providing thousands of patients with an alternative to heart bypass surgery.
New charged coupled devices (CCDs) used in breast examinations (mammographies) which images breast tissue more clearly than conventional x-rays. Doctors then use a specially designed needle to extract a tiny sample (instead of a scalpel) saving time, money and pain.
"Smart" forceps made of composite material, with embedded fiber optics. These obstetrical forceps allow doctors to measure the amount of pressure being applied to an infant's head during delivery.
Small pill-shaped transmitters Used to monitor intestinal activity; blood pressure and temperature of infants still inside the womb; body functions of athletes and high-stress professionals such as firefighters and soldiers.
Image processing software used in dermatology analysis to "decode" the shadow patterns and provided accurate heights and depths.
Roofs based on moonsuits that look stiff, but are flexible and expand in heat and contract in cold. Used as covering of malls, stadiums and new airports like Denver International.
Padding in helmets, shin guards, chest protectors and aircraft seating.
Golf balls with greater accuracy and distance.
Lightning protection systems for aircraft.
Windshear detection and warning system for aircraft.
Traffic Alert and Collision Avoidance System (TACS) now used by virtually all passenger aircraft.
Monitoring system which scans important documents at certain times and compares the differences between the images. The system detects changes in contrast, shape and other features. Used by museums and the National Archives to monitor historic documents and plan a way to stop any damage.
Landsat imagery to discover unknown archeology sites; reveal ancient coastlines; manage the harvesting of fish in the world’s oceans; calculate how well crops are doing, etc.
Improved spray nozzles for crop dusters.
New breathing system for firefighters made up of a face mask, frame and harness, warning device, and air bottle. Weighs one-third less than old gear.
Virtual reality simulators for medical operations, flight training, truck driving, etc.
Fluorometer instrument used to monitor plankton in the world's oceans. Instrument measures amount of glow given off by plankton and other marine life that consume sunlight in their photosynthesis process. Much of the world’s oxygen comes from plankton.
Oil spill cleanup using beeswax microcapsules. The beeswax balls absorb oil and keep water out. Absorbed oil is digested by microorganism enzymes inside the ball. When the balls get full of digested oil, they explode and release environmentally safe enzymes, carbon dioxide and water.
Software to match and track whales.
DirectTV.
Satellite radio.
Fire-Resistant Aircraft Seats.
"Cool suit" which helps to improve the quality of life of multiple sclerosis patients.
Instruments to measure bone loss and bone density, without penetrating the skin.
Implant for delivering insulin to diabetics that provides more precise control of blood sugar levels and frees diabetics from the burden of daily insulin injections.
Device for growing ovarian tumors so that tumors can be studied outside the body, without harm to the patient.
******
Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
posted on February 21, 2004 04:01:54 PM
So is it your contention, Bunnicula, that none of these developments would have occurred if not for the space program? That the research wouldn't have been done? Isn't that a little like saying Robert Stroud (Birdman of Alcatraz) was the only one who could've conducted his ornithological studies?
posted on February 21, 2004 04:19:17 PMplsmith: Some of the things on the list would not have been invented without the space program, yes. Others might have been invented, but much, much later--and perhaps not as well.
LindaK: thank you--but the info was culled from the Net, so I can't take credit
******
Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
posted on February 21, 2004 04:24:29 PM
The point is, we have had great benefits from the space program. And if the program contnues, we will continue to do so. There really is no point of waiting until "right here at home" is a utopian paradise, cuz it's never gonna happen. There will always be problems, poverty, pollution, etc. It's our nature.
******
Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
posted on February 21, 2004 06:16:10 PM
Interesting that you view addressing our most pernicious social problems as some 'utopian' ideal, Bunnicula, when reaching for the stars is clearly the more fantastic idea. I'll never believe that the cost of the space program has justified its continued existence. Your post cited nearly seventy discoveries/inventions someone has attributed to the space program, including -- haha -- a golf ball with greater accuracy and distance. Wonder what that little gem of a discovery cost us...
There are a dozen other developments on that list which fall into the 'huh?' ( -box of rocks) category, and I still say that many of the useful technologies we attribute to the space program would've been developed without it, and for far less money.
Especially this: "Power Pads" to cushion a horse's hooves, protecting against injuries and helping ease discomfort associated with brittle hooves or arthritis.
posted on February 21, 2004 08:08:15 PM
What someone "believes" does very little in collision with facts. And the facts of what was developed for the space program are there. If you speculate that, for example, the advances in cryrogenics that are used in reduced temperature surgeries would "have been developed anyway" for the 500 people per year who use it, you're not playing with a full deck. The Teflon industry alone probably is worth multiple space programs. No project whose object is a single goal could possibly compare to the results generated by a program requiring new technology in multiple directions at the same time.
Now some of the developments of astromedicine may have been come across with the "it will be discovered anyway theory", but there would have to be apologies to the hundreds of thousands of people who would be dead today.
posted on February 21, 2004 11:12:17 PMdesquirrel: actually, Teflon can not be attributed to the space program. It was developed in 1938 by a DuPont chemist named Roy J. Plunkett Though it was used by our space program. Another invention commonly attributed to the space program is Velcro but that, too, was an early invention. I guess they are attributed to the space program because we started really hearing about themin the 60s & they do seem "out of this world."
******
Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
posted on February 21, 2004 11:50:25 PM
I am surprised that you people have completely overlooked one of the most significant contributions the Space Program has bestowed humanity. TANG
posted on February 22, 2004 12:29:24 AM
We should also thank explosives for advances in psychiatric surgery.
Finneus Gauge worked in the railway industry and was ramming explosives down a hole to clear an area, it went off and his brain was impaled by his ramrod. This led to the discovery of lobotomy.
posted on February 22, 2004 09:56:24 AM
I think the one huge important factor that people seem to forget is that even with the high cost of space exploration is that we as a species will not survive on this planet forever.
Prices will come down as more and more private companies get involved and new discoveries come on line it will make going to other planets more feasible.
Raw resources are running out therefore making more and more wars possible as all nations fight for ever shrinking resources.
When you think about how many tons of raw resources it takes for every new person born its mind boggling.
At the rate of human expansion around the globe [population explosion] there will be no choice but to head for the stars or face destruction on earth.
The other factors are that its only a matter of time before some killer rock hits this planet and wipes out all life here.
This is why its important to spread our seed ever outward and insure our species survives.
posted on February 22, 2004 02:58:28 PM
So trai, in the ‘race to space’ is the spreading of Russian ‘seed’ less desirable than American?
How absurd it seems to toss the idea of what seems a comparatively easily achievable global population control, or to limit resource consumption for all of earth’s inhabitants, in preference to expectations of sending a hand full of people to populate the stars.
posted on February 22, 2004 03:29:19 PM
DeS, care to do a little 'outside the box' thinking, or will that be too taxing for you on a Sunday afternoon?
Try to stay with me here, because there's no box, and my initial remarks are going to stray far from the space program itself.
What is the true value of money? Those twenty dollar bills in your wallet are paper; there's been no gold behind them for over seventy years. For that matter, what's the value of gold? For centuries, it was nothing more than an eye-pleasing ornamental metal; yes, certainly coveted but with no intrinsic (as in, life-saving properties, which seems to be one theme of your space program argument). Money, gold, even 'priceless' gems -- where did their value originate? *
I would put it to you -- from outside the box -- that these things meant/mean something because we say so. Or, more importantly, because those who controlled/control them say so, and are the arbiters in such matters because of the powerful positions they've held since Adam and Eve rendered apples worthless.
Where I'm headed -- if you're still with me, that is, and I doubt you are -- is to the concept of 'agreement'. It would not have sat well with kings and popes and mullahs and czars to have something available to all be worth anything, even though it might have been (and ultimately will be) of more intrinsic value than a paper dollar, a 'precious' metal, or a 'priceless' gem. What if the monetary standard had been primarily based on food -- beans, rice, livestock, etc. -- tangible, meaningful assets? We both know why that couldn't happen; why, peasants might rule the world! Better to have their worthwhile production of the very stuff that keeps us alive! rendered secondary and subject to taxation, so that those who produce nothing, offer nothing, but own through entitlement the 'right' to control the people who do, and then have those people determine that what is truly valuable base monetary systems on what isn't valuable at all.
Ready to fast-forward to the space program and why we needed/need it?
Good!
Once again, it's a matter of agreement. JFK boldly suggested that we should/could have a man on the moon by the end of the 1960s and thousands of people went to work on that lofty ideal. But what if Kennedy had said, "We are the wealthiest nation on earth, and yet we have people living in poverty across this great country. By the end of this decade, we should/could eradicate poverty and accord to all our citizens those fundamental rights spelled out in our Constitution: Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness." ? The same dollars that were poured into the space program could've been poured into creating a standard of living that did not cynically see Welfare as a solution but created jobs and education, and, in the process, produced those scientists and researchers who developed/develop the 'marvels' of which you're so fond.
The money for the space program was/is just as non-existent (or real) as the money that could've been/could be used elsewhere. It is a matter of 'agreement', and it starts with folks like you and Bunnicula shifting your views from 'how it's always been' to how it might be...
* Stipulating right now to the value of gold and other metals and industrial diamonds -- with the understanding that these did not form the basis for their value initially.
posted on February 22, 2004 03:30:50 PM
Actually kcpick, that's one of the weakest arguments. The Sun isn't our weak point, the Earth itself is the weakest link.
As far as the Human race goes, the sun may as well last forever. The Sun was here long before we evolved, and it'll be here long after we've evolved into someting completely recognizable. It would take an incredibly unlikely disaster to affect our Sun significantly.
HOWEVER, the Earth itself is not so lucky. One stray asteroid could easily destroy all intelligent life here. Space is filled with rocks and debris- thousands of rocks a day hit our atmosphere and burn up because they are too small to make it to the surface (meteors). But there are plenty of LARGE rocks floating around out there that if headed the right direction could wipe out everything in one boom.
If you want proof of the HIGH probability (inevitability) of a large asteroid impact, just look at the Moon.
Keep in mind, most of the many craters on the Moon that you can see with the naked eye were caused by rocks just a few miles wide. The reason you can still see them is that there is no weather to erode them like there is on Earth. Earth has been hit by rocks of this scale many times in the distant past, but due to our weather, few signs of those impacts still exist.
We've all seen the Hollywood movies about asteroid impact events... But with the exceptions of the silly heroic endings, the disaster is not only possible, but inevitable.
We *MUST* get off this tiny rock.
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Replay Media
Games of all kinds!
posted on February 22, 2004 03:32:49 PM
It never hurts to think ahead!
Even if WMD don't get us! We might fall prey to evolution which eliminates species continually!
posted on February 22, 2004 03:35:23 PM
Or as PLSmith said, a nuclear war is just as likely. Whatever the disaster, aving all our eggs in one basket is not only dangerous, but criminal on an highest scale imaginable.
We are talking about the eventual destruction of our entire species.
What are a few (thousands, tens of thousands, million, whatever number you care to place here) homeless people compared to that eventuality?
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Replay Media
Games of all kinds!
posted on February 22, 2004 03:59:01 PM
"We might fall prey to evolution which eliminates species continually! "
KC, babylamb, try to adopt the same indifference to that possibility that George W Bush has wisely accepted: "Hey, I'll be dead! What do I care?! "
"Or as PLSmith said, a nuclear war is just as likely."
Replay, did I really say that? I *think* my remarks were directed at how unsettling a return to a 'Cold War' stand-off might be...
But, both of you, take heart in history: While it was psychologically disturbing and morally offensive, the Cold War era never manifested its most terrifying threat (global thermo-nuclear war).
Those in power enjoy life too much to erase it all; while we seem to be entering a new era of saber-rattling and 'good versus evil', really all we've done is rescript the fear-mongering that kept us terrified for forty years ( - 'the Russians mean to blow us up and control the world! ) only now the 'threat' is terrorism and our response ( - 'WE'RE in a position to control the world these days, so all you latecomers back off! ) is, I'll grant you, a rather jejune stance, but it does address both the concern of terrorism and the development of nuclear weapons abroad.
