posted on October 14, 2004 08:12:21 AM
A 55-point chasm in military support for Kerry and Bush
Ross Mackenzie October 14, 2004
Oct. 11 editions of Military Times publications (Navy Times, Army Times, Marine Corps Times, Air Force Times) carried an astounding story not likely to get much coverage in the establishment press.
surprise, surprise
Staff writer Gordon Trowbridge wrote as follows:
President Bush retains overwhelming support among the military's professional core despite a troubled mission in Iraq and an opponent who is a decorated combat veteran, a Military Times survey of more than 4,000 readers indicates.
Bush leads Democratic Sen. John Kerry 73 percent to 18 percent in the voluntary survey of 4,165 active-duty, National Guard, and reserve subscribers.
Although the results of the Military Times 2004 Election Survey are not representative of the opinions of the military as a whole, they are a disappointment to Democrats who hoped Kerry's record and doubts about Bush would give their candidate an opening in a traditionally Republican group with tremendous symbolic value in a closely contested election.
Officers and enlisted troops, active-duty members and reservists, those who have served in combat zones and those who haven't, all supported Bush by large margins.
And the survey hints that Kerry's emphasis of his decorated service in Vietnam may have done more harm than good with those in uniform.
Duke poli-sci prof Peter Feaver, noting Kerry "has wooed the military more ardently than ever before," says of the survey: "Frankly, the margin (for Bush) greatly exceeds anything that I or any other analyst had expected."
The Military Times survey, with its yawning 55-point chasm between support for Bush and support for Kerry, confirms much about two cultures in America: one military and insistently conservative; the other civilian and far less so.
Specifically, the two cultures agree on little regarding the defense of the nation and the role of the military in it. And they share increasingly few values about life - especially the values inherent in political ideology as it spills into their daily routines - in these United States.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"And they, the interrogator went through all of these statements from John Kerry. He starts pounding on the table. 'See here, this naval officer, he admits that you are a criminal.'" Excerpt from "Stolen Honor"
- James H. Warner
Former Vietnam POW
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I will never submit America's national security to an international test. The use of troops to defend America must never be subject to a veto by countries like France. The President's job is not to take an international poll -- the President's job is to defend America." --President George W. Bush
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Re-elect President Bush
[ edited by Linda_K on Oct 14, 2004 08:14 AM ]
posted on October 14, 2004 10:16:26 PM
"What you're seeing on your TV screens," the president said when minimizing the Iraq insurgency in May, are "the desperate tactics of a hateful few." Maybe that's the sunny news that can be found on a Sinclair station. Now, with our election less than three weeks away, the bad news coming out of Iraq everywhere else is a torrent. Reporters at virtually every news organization describe a downward spiral so dangerous that they can't venture anywhere in Iraq without risking their lives. Last weekend marines spoke openly and by name to Steve Fainaru of The Washington Post about the quagmire they're witnessing firsthand and its irrelevance to battling Al Qaeda, whose 9/11 attack motivated many of them to enlist in the first place. "Every day you read the articles in the States where it's like, 'Oh, it's getting better and better," said Lance Cpl. Jonathan Snyder of Gettysburg, Pa. "But when you're here, you know it's worse every day." Another marine, Lance Cpl. Alexander Jones of Ball Ground, Ga., told Mr. Fainaru: "We're basically proving out that the government is wrong. We're catching them in a lie." Asked if he was concerned that he and his buddies might be punished for speaking out, Cpl. Brandon Autin of New Iberia, La., responded: "What are they going to do - send us to Iraq?"
posted on October 15, 2004 05:40:03 AMWe have the liberals of this country to thank for those soldiers outlook...
So you're saying a soldier's opinions are that easily influenced? My goodness.....
____________________________________________
Dick Cheney: "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11..."
posted on October 15, 2004 05:44:26 AM
It must come from the great education they received...
Actually from the soldiers I personally talk to and their friends... they are upset with kerry's talk... most soldiers are voting for President Bush...
posted on October 15, 2004 08:10:42 AM
The Military Vote
by DemFromCT
Sat Oct 9th, 2004 at 12:52:46 GMT
Long time readers of these weekend pages will know that the military vote has been under discussion for quite a while. CW is that Repubs own the military vote; more astute analysts realize the officer corps skews repub but the rank-and-file is far more likely to reflect the country, even if more conservative socially than the east/west coasts. The typical imperfect polling suggests a 60-40 GOP lean for veterans' votes, but direct polling of soldiers is resisted by the Pentagon.
Zogby's tracking poll provides some more information on military families. The breakdown of the current poll (Kerry 46.3, Bush 45.1) also looks at what Zogby calls 'armed forces', presumably immediate families of soldiers. In this subgroup, there is a virtual tie (Kerry leading by a hair yesterday, Bush today).
Debates are nice, but no one can fully control the news, not even the Bush WH. News from Iraq and overseas comes directly from those who are there, and the news is not pretty. A huge chunk of the country (>40%) knows someone overseas in the military. This, more than anything else, is eroding Bush's credibility and all the ads in the world won't change that, nor will debates.
No wonder he's testy. Reality keeps spoiling the GOP's quarter billion dollar ad campaign. I'd be testy, too.
There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." —George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002
----------------------------------
Let's have a BBQ, Texas style, ROAST BUSH
------------------------------
On This Week with George Stephanopoulos, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld declares: "the area… that coalition forces control… happens not to be the area where weapons of mass destruction were dispersed. We know where they are. They’re in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat."
------------------------------
posted on October 15, 2004 11:02:32 AM
A marine and the President
A Marine was on his way home from the pentagon and was stuck in traffic that he thought was worse than usual. Noticing a policeman walking among the stalled cars, he asked, "Officer, whats the holdup?"
The policeman says, "The President is so depressed about the Iraq War that he has stopped his motorcade and he's threatening to douse himself in gasoline and set himself on fire. He says he's betrayed his country, his family hates him, and he doesn't have the $33 million he owes his lawyers. I'm walking around taking up a collection for him."
"Oh, really?" the marine says. "How much have you collected so far?"
"Only 25 gallons, but a lot of folks are still siphoning!"
There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." —George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002
----------------------------------
Let's have a BBQ, Texas style, ROAST BUSH
------------------------------
On This Week with George Stephanopoulos, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld declares: "the area… that coalition forces control… happens not to be the area where weapons of mass destruction were dispersed. We know where they are. They’re in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat."
------------------------------
posted on October 15, 2004 11:33:29 AM
The author of logansdad article presumes something NOT TRUE.
The breakdown of the current poll (Kerry 46.3, Bush 45.1) also looks at what Zogby calls 'armed forces', presumably immediate families of soldiers. In this subgroup, there is a virtual tie (Kerry leading by a hair yesterday, Bush today).
I participate in the weekly Zogby poll....and the question is worder as such that it asks if you have a member of the armed forces who lives in your household. There are hundreds of thousands who have family members serving...but NOT living in their parents homes.
That's why it always depends on just HOW the poll is worder. But this author is also 'reading some broken crystal ball' by not being intelligent to see how that question has been worded since they first posted in on their site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"And they, the interrogator went through all of these statements from John Kerry. He starts pounding on the table. 'See here, this naval officer, he admits that you are a criminal.'" Excerpt from "Stolen Honor"
- James H. Warner Former Vietnam POW
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I will never submit America's national security to an international test. The use of troops to defend America must never be subject to a veto by countries like France. The President's job is not to take an international poll -- the President's job is to defend America." --President George W. Bush
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Re-elect President Bush
posted on October 15, 2004 11:49:11 AM
WASHINGTON - The Army is investigating reports that several members of a reservist supply unit in Iraq refused to go on a convoy mission, the military said Friday. Relatives of the soldiers said the troops considered the mission too dangerous.
The reservists are from the 343rd Quartermaster Company, which is based in Rock Hill, S.C. The unit delivers food and water in combat zones.
According to The Clarion-Ledger newspaper in Jackson, Miss., a platoon of 17 soldiers refused to go on a fuel supply mission Wednesday because their vehicles were in poor shape and they did not have a capable armed escort.
The paper cited interviews with family members of some of the soldiers, who said the soldiers had been confined after their refusals. The mission was carried out by other soldiers from the 343rd, which has at least 120 soldiers, the military said.
Frequent ambushes, bombings
Convoys in Iraq are frequently subject to ambushes and roadside bombings.
A whole unit refusing to go on a mission in a war zone would be a significant breach of military discipline. A statement from the military’s press center in Baghdad called the incident “isolated.”
“The investigating team is currently in Tallil taking statements and interviewing those involved. This is an isolated incident and it is far too early in the investigation to speculate as to what happened, why it happened or any action that might be taken,” the coalition press information center said in the statement, sent to the Associated Press in Washington.
In the statement, U.S. military officials said the commanding general of the 13th Corps Support Command had appointed his deputy commander to investigate the incident.
The statement did not confirm several aspects of the relatives’ stories, including the number of soldiers involved and the reason they refused the mission.
Vehicles unsafe, relative says
The soldiers refused an order on Wednesday to go to Taji, Iraq — north of Baghdad — because their vehicles were considered extremely unsafe, Patricia McCook of Jackson, Miss., told the Clarion-Ledger newspaper. Her husband, Sgt. Larry O. McCook, was among those detained, she said, saying her husband had telephoned her from Iraq.
The platoon being held has troops from Alabama, Kentucky, North Carolina, Mississippi and South Carolina, said Teresa Hill of Dothan, Ala., who told the newspaper her daughter Amber McClenny is among those being detained.
Patricia McCook said her husband told her he did not feel comfortable taking his soldiers on another trip.
“He told me that three of the vehicles they were to use were ’deadlines’ ... not safe to go in a hotbed like that,” she said, according to the newspaper.
There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." —George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002
----------------------------------
Let's have a BBQ, Texas style, ROAST BUSH
------------------------------
On This Week with George Stephanopoulos, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld declares: "the area… that coalition forces control… happens not to be the area where weapons of mass destruction were dispersed. We know where they are. They’re in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat."
------------------------------
posted on October 15, 2004 12:08:42 PM
And what if those soldiers in Taji were pinned down and desperately needed that fuel in an emergency?
These guys don't know the big picture, and that's why the 'grunts' don't get to make decisions like that. Their cowardice may have cost lives, and maybe in fact DID cause lives, we can't know.
Less than optimal trucks are not an excuse. I'm sure there was plenty of less than optimum equipment on D-Day too, but the soldiers knew they had to make do.
Throw the book at them.
--------------------------------------
We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing -- Anonymous
posted on October 15, 2004 10:47:43 PM
I'd have to agree. No matter what my politics are, this unit had an obligation, a job to do, and they opted to ignore that. They deserve whatever punishment they receive.
"Who's tending the bar? Sniping works up a thirst"
posted on October 16, 2004 06:27:57 AM
The following editorial is dedicated to Pvt. "C". Pvt. C is, or rather was, a very close family friend.
Pvt. C endured an lengthy deployment in Iraq only to be shot and killed by a local police officer after he had returned home. This soldier suffered from a mental condition that may or may not have existed prior to his deployment but was nonetheless quite evident upon his return from Iraq. The soldier was also intoxicated and had given the police officer no other option. The family harbors no ill-will towards the officer. Unlike Guardsmen of the Vietnam era, today's Guardsmen and women are not given the choice of staying stateside. And today's Guardsmen are court-martialed if they do not complete their agreed upon term of duty.
1000 DEAD GIs
1000 dead GI’s in the ground, 1000 dead GIs.
If one of the dead is your daughter or son,
Thank President Bush for the job that he’s done.
999 GI’s in the ground, 999 GIs.
If your husband or father has died in this war,
Be assured that you’re more safe than before.
998 GI’s in the ground, 998 GIs.
Every day more Americans fall,
Because Bush and Cheney lied to us all.
997 GI’s in the ground, 997 GIs.
Wolfowitz brags about the blood they have shed,
But He can’t tell you how many are dead.
996 GI’s in the ground, 996 GIs.
We’ll fight to the end, the VP assured,
But 6 times he had his own duty deferred.
995 GI’s in the ground, 995 GIs.
No Nu-cular program or Al Qaeda links,
No WMD’s, just a World on the brink.
994 GI’s in the ground, 994 GI’s.
Bush says he is proud of those who have served,
Yet claims Kerry’s medals were all undeserved.
993 GI’s in the ground, 993 GIs.
He’ll sacrifice women along with the men,
As long as their names aren’t Barbara or Jen.
992 GI’s in the ground, 992 GIs.
Just drape the Flag around the pine box,
No pictures allowed, not even on Fox.
991 GI’s in the ground, 991 GIs.
Osama Bin Laden is still on the loose,
The terrorist threat was just an excuse.
990 GI’s in the ground, 990 GIs.
But who was mainly behind the Attack,
The Kingdom that lies just south of Iraq………
2 dead GI's in the ground, 2 dead GIs.
No Daddy to keep them out of harm's way,
Like the Coward who sits in the White House today.
ONE DEAD GI IN THE GROUND, ONE DEAD GI.
A LEADER WHO PREYS ON ALL OF OUR FEARS,
IN HOPES OF ATTAINING 4 MORE BLOODY YEARS.
Let us not forget about the 1000+ soldiers that have had to pay the ultimate sacrifice for Bush's lies and desires for world conquest and oil.
There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." —George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002
----------------------------------
Let's have a BBQ, Texas style, ROAST BUSH
------------------------------
On This Week with George Stephanopoulos, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld declares: "the area… that coalition forces control… happens not to be the area where weapons of mass destruction were dispersed. We know where they are. They’re in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat."
------------------------------
Excerpt from "Stolen Honor"
Sniping works up a thirst"