As I was saying when I was so rudely interupted, Jada.
According to the studies done for writing the ordinances you are correct. They found that Asian women and white women were typically depicted as helpless and enjoying torture or pain, and black women as anamalistic and beast like. I have noticed that in my limited exposure....but...I am not an expert.
Do we have an expert in the house who can tell us how the typical depiction of women in pornography varies in relation to race?
..going to get my link...
T
[ edited by jt on Aug 3, 2000 10:46 PM ]
posted on August 3, 2000 11:06:07 PM new
Teri, I didn't interrupt you, I have as much right to post as anyone else. I believe you, in fact, asked Pat Taylor to move the thread and he responded to you.
Will you please point me to these studies you refer to. Some of my black female friends would like to know the reasoning behind a group of people or one person believing that they are portrayed in a specific way, even in pornographic films.
Also, aren't we being a bit biased in our discussion. Some porno films depict men as enjoing torture and pain, (and it's usually white men in my experience). Are the crimes against men influenced by those who use or sell pornographic material?
Edited to add - I agree with Bunnicula, I have to wonder why the answer to these questions is so important to you when you have stated your position on pornography several times on this board.
If you get the answers you seek, and they don't agree with your position, will you change your mind? Or is this thread/issue being discussed in the hopes of bringing others around to your way of thinking or in the hopes of striking some fear/doubt into the heart of those who sell pornographic materials?
Don't get me wrong, you certainly have that right, I supose I just don't understand your motives.
[ edited by jada on Aug 3, 2000 11:10 PM ]
posted on August 3, 2000 11:23:58 PM new
Jada, the ordinances say that "child/transexual/etc." CAN be substituted for the word "woman" and I think it is EQUALLY insulting to those people.
I am going to look for what you asked for.
BTW, I meant I was interupted in general...I did not mean by you. I am glad you are here.
Why is it so important to me? Because anytime I see someone being degraded, insulted, debased it infuriates me. In this case, I have two daughters, I am a woman myself, so it's triple important to me. It makes me angry that society has been brainwashed to ACCEPT this as "normal". In addition I have encounted and known women from the industry in my hotel career and what they and their children have endured mentally and physically is beyond explaination. It is a cause to me much as "save the earth" or "right for life" is to another.
Women are often sheltered from what pornography is about (not always) then they don't have the courage to face the opposition. As long as women are portrayed as objects who enjoy pain, humiliation, etc. it affects us in all other walks of life.
Did you know that 1 in 7 women in this country are raped in their life? Maybe not a connection to pornography directly but it is at least an indirect result of attitudes toward women and sex. AND studies have shown that men ARE more likely to be violent at least in thought if not deed if they have ben exposed to violent pornography just befoe interaction with women. These studies were done in college setting with students with no prior history of abusive behavior.
T
I was typing Jada. Please...no offense at all. Let's just talk.
[ edited by jt on Aug 3, 2000 11:24 PM ]
posted on August 3, 2000 11:30:00 PM new
Hi Terri.
Approximately 250,000,000 Americans - let's say half are female. I'm sorry, but it is simply not true that nearly 18,000,000 woman alive in America today are or will be rape victims.
Think about it. Statistics are easily bandied. This one can't be true. I am not making light of rape.
posted on August 3, 2000 11:30:45 PM new
Jade the racial information is on this page, graphic and not really suitable for AW. If you use your find feature of your browser and find "Asian" you will jump right to that paragraph.
posted on August 3, 2000 11:35:39 PM new
That is a "low end figure" that I believe comes from the Rape Crisis Center. You are correct that those are NOT police reports as MOST rapes go unreported. MOST do. That is also a lifetime figure including child abuse through adulthood. I will look for the updated statistics on that because it has been since 1989 that I got that figure as "current". That has been a while.
T
(I have not done my math to see how that adds up.)
"Only 10 - 16% of rapes are ever reported to the police (Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center of the National Victim center, 1992; Koss et al., 1990)."
[ edited by jt on Aug 3, 2000 11:41 PM ]
[ edited by jt on Aug 3, 2000 11:43 PM ]
Took my sleeping pill before I read this, so will probably be out pretty soon.
I really don't think anyone will be converted because of a chat thread, that said, I think it is important to hear from "all walks of life". If nothing else it reminds people that their "side" needs to be protected.
I wonder if we could make some clearifications. For example thier are really two types of "porn" (forgetting for a moment the different degrees of "porn" ). There is legal porn and illegal porn.
Illegal porn: Child porn and snuff films, for example. Perhaps we could all agree that Child porn is illegal and therefore should not be sold. Personal statement: I feel that illegal goods as Child porn should NOT be allowed to be sold ANYWHERE.
Legal Porn: In simple terms is just about everything else (although there are age limits placed on the buying of legal porn).
Maybe we could pick one of these to discuss at a time. I only suggest this because we will get no where (in my opinion) trying to mix the apples and oranges.
posted on August 3, 2000 11:46:07 PM new
Teri, based on that college study, (saying that men become more violent at least in thought after viewing violent pornography), I would think this problem would occur after, say a bachelor party in which violent porno films might be viewed.
If fifty men attended that party, does the study say that all fifty men are likely to fit this profile or a certain percentage? They should have been somewhat specific in their facts for the study to be accurate.
I'm certainly not in agreement with women or men being debased, tortured, etc. But if the decision is made between two consenting adults, (even a porno film director and an actress), I believe they should have the freedom to make those decisions for themselves, without anyone trying to legislate morality. It won't work, just look at the Prohibition era.
posted on August 3, 2000 11:47:42 PM new
Hello fuzzy. Here is the definition that we are discussing:
http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/Porn/newday/T2c.htm
It has been legally defined in 3 major cities based on WHAT the content is and NOT buy what effect it produces in it's viewer. This definition was arrived at after research into what content the pornography industry already producing at the time it was defined.
T
posted on August 3, 2000 11:47:54 PM new
Well, that was the third post I lost...I am taking it as an omen and going to bed. Hope this thread is still open tomorrow.
posted on August 3, 2000 11:48:53 PM newlotsafuzz: that would be reasonable, however I believe jt takes the stance than there isn't much difference between legal & illegal pornography.
jt: I took a look at your link. It is actually an overview of the the contents of a book written by a woman who is an extreme anti-pornography fighter. Just reading this overview one gets the impression that men are roaming the streets en masse with their penises hanging out, looking for women to assault. And, of course, the paragraph you led us to says nothing about the *men* who participate in porn films--what forces *make* them "act" in them, how they are regarded by the women who watch said films, and how they show that the only thing important about them are their penises (objectifying of the male).
posted on August 3, 2000 11:48:59 PM new
Lotsafuzz - I agree, I just hadn't realized that the discussion of illegal porn might be involved in this thread (yea, I can be downright stupid).
As far as I'm concerned, all my statements relate only to the legal type of porn.
posted on August 3, 2000 11:58:04 PM new
I don't know the specifics of the study but I do know that it was not a bachelor party setting but a lab experiment.
Do you feel that if your boss (assuming you have one) viewed this type pornography (depicting women as objectified and enjoying abuse on a daily basis), it would perhaps affect his ability to make judgments in your advancement if you were being considered for the same position along with a man..especially a man who discussed and joked about pornography with him?
I am curious. I did not face that situation but a boss...a 60K department manager where I worked was fired after using such statements as "a computer system is like a woman's.."
This was by entire department concensus after there was a meeting to discuss the change in his behavior after he became involved in pornography. He was 61 years old with a successful career and no proir history of such incidents. He became blatent about it...leaving copies of pictures on the public printer after a time and windows open on his desktop. Most of the men in the office said it was "inapproiate but not offensive". After talking with the women about their feelings, the entire department agreed and approached the president and the man was immediately fired. The office was about 50/50 male and female.
T
posted on August 4, 2000 12:02:38 AM new
I agree bunnicula. I don't endorse the entire content of that web site...every word. I don't trust every word. I was using it however for it's overall content because of the links to the ordinances and definition. I could not find them posted anywhere else. I DO agree with much of it but I am also skeptical about some things. It just made a good basis for general information and discussion. Do you have another one? I have read it all so I would be happy to switch now.
T
posted on August 4, 2000 12:05:33 AM new
JT, did the men who said the material was "inappropriate but not offensive" state whether they also watched violent and/or pornographic films?
If so, why did they not all react as this one man did?
By the way, I worked several years for an attorney who can only be described as a "real pig", he wore a Halloween mask with a penis attached to the face.
He watched every pornographic movie he could get his hands on, violent or otherwise. Yet, he was an extremely successful attorney with a loving wife and family and employees who actually liked him. He never raped, hurt, molested anyone. True, he may have debased women with his attitudes, but the porno he watched had nothing to do with that, he would have been the same had he never seen a porno movie.
In addition to being a "real pig", he was a nice guy. Contradiction in terms I know, but it happens.
posted on August 4, 2000 12:16:48 AM new
They said that yes they had looked at pornography but not very often. This was in a staff meeting with a lot of highly upset and embarassed to bring it up women...so I have no idea what they do at home. They did not do it at work that anyone ever observed. According to the guy's wife he did not do it at home. (Subordinates didn't really matter since the women were as he saw them in the films...and they guys did not seem to object.)
I am sorry but I have a family issue here so I have to go. Carry on without me.
I hope this has lead someone..anyone...to think and read and consider...and that was my only objective. I do not want any battles. I do not expect to change anyone by my words. I want ALL women to be treasured and uplifted and never harmed insulted or objectified. ALL women, including those in the films and pictures and those in workplaces and in homes, deserve a fair opportunity in life and their place as an equally valued child of whatever Creator they worship.
posted on August 4, 2000 12:17:06 AM new
Well, we can discuss this matter until the cows come home, but until the Supreme Court decides that the right to read or view pornographic material is no longer protected by the 1st Amendment, we ain't gonna change nothin'.
I imagine that they realized when they made this decision that someone would have to produce and sell these materials, but I dunno.
posted on August 4, 2000 12:26:16 AM new
IF you understand...don't stop trying to make someone else see it too. It is as important, I believe, as Rosa refusing to give up her seat.
T
[ edited by jt on Aug 4, 2000 12:44 AM ]
posted on August 4, 2000 12:46:34 AM new
Time for me to put my two cents.
jt, i'm assuming your posts are drawing somerhwre. My Cousin, who BTW, owns a Porn Business and makes films of differing genres, is all amused at your thread.
She noted several references of how women are portrayed as "victims"...well, take a cue from Hollywood!!
Ya know....guy kills the bad guy, saves the world from (choose your event here), and finally, gets the girl...
Most action movies are like that...gee, I wonder...
As for your race to sex reference...that would depend on what your looking at. Generally speaking, all women in porn are...nyphos, sluts, bitches....whatever you want to call them.
Also, note porn sometimes breaks the mold. Women hold high positions in porn that are generally assumed to be the domain of men. Danni Ashe owns her own Porn Website, as do many other porn stars. Some own their own Porn businesses. A few are stars in their own right and have loyal fan clubs. They earn equal to or even more to males, depending on "skills" and such. Amatuers could earn a regular MONTH'S salary ($1,000 is what my Cousin quotes for First-Timers to her shoots) in one scence.
To say many women get "degenerated" and such are the typical sterotypes done by society. I don't wanna offend people who might take this the wrong way, but what you see are just that;
The typical sterotypes.
:\\\"Crystalline Sliver cannot be the target of spells or abilities.
posted on August 4, 2000 12:47:04 AM new
LOL. I fixed it. It is 2:45 am, child up every few minutes with a bad dream, and I read 50+ historical children's novels out loud this year. I admit I am confused! Thanks.
dhh...
T
No comment CS.
[ edited by jt on Aug 4, 2000 12:49 AM ]
posted on August 4, 2000 12:48:46 AM new
JT - I think and believe that women are to be treasured as well, (even revered specially since I am one)
However, I can't agree that a great majority of the ills of this society are the result of men reading or viewing pornographic materials. To do so implies that men, and the women who also view and read pornographic material, are so easily influenced by this material, that their entire value system could very well be changed. I can't believe that to be true.
A person who is prone to commit sexual assaults may blame his behavior on pornography, but I believe these people would commit these assaults even if no pornographic materials were available to them. Those who would never commit a sexual assault and are honest, moral and good people can read and/or watch pornography for years and never harm anyone.
Who is to say whether the ability to read and view pornographic material may have acted as a release and actually helped to prevent, in some small way, an assault on a wife or husband?
Ted Bundy used this excuse in a last-ditch effort to retain some morsel of humanity. No reasonable, intelligent person believed him as best I recall.
posted on August 4, 2000 12:55:25 AM new
"are so easily influenced by this material, that their entire value system could very well be changed"
NO. I think it's an overall problem with what society accepts in general. Pornography and the fight to protect it only fuels the fire of inequality and degredation of women (and others).
See CS's casual comment about women above and the terms he used to describe them as if such a view were socially acceptable. And evidently it is to a huge portion of our population.
I hope my daughter's do not marry or work for men (or women) who find this kind of representation of women acceptable.
I REALLY have to stop now. Night.
T
Adding CS's comment in case it is edited:
"Generally speaking, all women in porn are...nyphos, sluts, bitches..."
[ edited by jt on Aug 4, 2000 01:08 AM ]
Are the crimes against men influenced by those who use or sell pornographic material?