posted on May 7, 2005 02:32:42 PM new
This WACKO Pastor should be kicked out of the Baptist Church then this Church should lose its TAX EXEMPT STATUS.
Democrats Voted Out of Baptist Church
Saturday, May 7, 2005 9:51 AM EDT
The Associated Press
Some in Pastor Chan Chandler's flock wish he had a little less zeal for the GOP. Members of the small East Waynesville Baptist Church say Chandler led an effort to kick out congregants who didn't support President Bush. Nine members were voted out at a Monday church meeting in this mountain town, about 120 miles west of Charlotte.
"He's the kind of pastor who says do it my way or get out," said Selma Morris, the former church treasurer. "He's real negative all the time."
Chandler didn't return a message left by The Associated Press at his home Friday, and several calls to the church went unanswered. He told WLOS-TV in Asheville that the actions were not politically motivated.
The station also reported that 40 others in the 400-member congregation resigned in protest after Monday's vote.
During the presidential election last year, Chandler told the congregation that anyone who planned to vote for Democratic Sen. John Kerry should either leave the church or repent, said former member Lorene Sutton.
Some church members left after Chandler made his ultimatum in October, Morris said.
George Bullard, associate executive director-treasurer for Baptist State Convention of North Carolina, told the Asheville Citizen-Times that a pastor has every right to disallow memberships if a church's bylaws allow for the pastor to establish criteria for membership.
"Membership is a local church issue," he said. "It is not something the state convention would enter into."
He added that the nine members were not legally terminated because Monday's meeting was supposed to be a deacons meeting, not a business meeting. They have a lawyer looking into the situation, he said.
The head of the North Carolina Democratic Party sharply criticized the pastor Friday, saying Chandler jeopardized his church's tax-free status by openly supporting a candidate for president.
"If these reports are true, this minister is not only acting extremely inappropriately by injecting partisan politics into a house of worship, but he is also potentially breaking the law," Chairman Jerry Meek said.
Doris Wilson, one of Chandler's neighbors and a member of First Baptist Church in Waynesville, said God doesn't play partisan politics.
"I hate to see the church suffer like that," she said. "God doesn't care whether you're a Republican or a Democrat. It just hurts to see that going on."
posted on May 7, 2005 03:13:57 PM new
Bigpeepa, when the devil takes the pulpit all hell breaks loose!
But these right wingers hiding behind the pulpit have been around awhile ....many pastors and priests were handing out political flyers and leaflets before the "election".
Luckily decent people recognized it for what it was and much of the "buying of god" back fired on the Repugs. IF there is a god and an afterlife they will one day have to face the one who's name they used for political gain......I'd love to see that!
posted on May 7, 2005 03:30:46 PM new
Crow, your right these Religious Wackos have been around a long time. One of those Religious Wacko groups is called the K.K.K.
Geo Bush,Tom Delay and Bill Fisk all said "Praise the Lord and pass the All Mighty Dollar."
I am just kidding Bush,Delay and Fisk never said that they just vote that way.
posted on May 7, 2005 03:37:07 PM new
"You dont think they had a right to do this bigpeepa? Have you ever belonged to a club of sorts?"
dblfugger, You don't really think this is OK do you? A church is NOT a social club. There are very specific rules about discussing politics in a church.
I'm sure we all can find a dozen examples where both candidates made speeches within a church, and I don't understand how they get away with it, but that's beside the point.
I think most readers here know where I stand on religion, as I've made my opinions known on many religious threads.
This pastor should be removed. The church should not lose its tx exempt status for this one situation (it sounds like the congregation has already suffered enough), but the church leadership should be given the ultimatum to dump the pastor face the IRS. It sounds like he won't be missed much anyway.
I voted for Bush and think Kerry was an awful choice, but if my pastor had told me how to vote, I'd think real hard about leaving.
As it happened at my church all of summer and fall passed and NOT ONE MENTION of the election ever came up in church. I've been going for nearly a year, and don't believe I've EVER heard anything even remotely political discussed in a sermon or class.
And I'm still shaking my head in disbelief that I'm agreeing with crowfarm on a religious issue...
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Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum sonatur.
[ edited by replaymedia on May 7, 2005 03:40 PM ]
posted on May 7, 2005 03:37:28 PM new
One thing good came out of the pre-election bombardment of churches in America....many good, holy priests and pastors gave a big NO to these godless politicians. True christians who really did protect their flock from the wolves.
posted on May 7, 2005 03:56:17 PM new
Replay:I think most readers here know where I stand on religion, as I've made my opinions known on many religious threads.
Yeah...we sure do! You stand on the same trash heap as the rest of those other hypocritical,so called religious people, who preach love and kindness on one side of their mouth and then say stuff like this out the other side....
Replay:Actual torture conducted by experts in order to learn secrets? I have no problem at all with it I think in fact that it should be much more common.
posted on May 7, 2005 04:03:03 PM new
I whole heartily agree
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Baseball season has started,but they have it all wrong.3 strikes and you're out,4 balls you walk.I can tell you right now a man with 4 balls could not possibly walk
posted on May 7, 2005 04:06:57 PM new
realplay, sorry, a church is a simple conglomerate of members who meet to practice a religion. Any Joe Schnook can open a church and decide what goes on there, who the God is, what they do...on and on and on...
Few weeks ago I was watching that dateline special about some "Church's" up in the mountains of WVA where they believe in snake handling. It was wild to watch and realize there's people out there like that but not all churchs are dynasty's like the catholic, baptist, methodist, etc. are! Many are non-denominal sects off broken off churchs from those, but the only 'laws' they have to follow are like the rest of us. They're not employing people based on political affiliation so that doesnt apply. They're a club. It's a simplistic way to say it, but thats about the truth of the matter.
edited to add: in my humble opinion of course,
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[ edited by dblfugger9 on May 7, 2005 04:08 PM ]
posted on May 7, 2005 04:12:27 PM new
"Church's" up in the mountains of WVA where they believe in snake handling."
yea I saw one program where they handle rattlesnakes-pretty sick if ya ask me.
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Baseball season has started,but they have it all wrong.3 strikes and you're out,4 balls you walk.I can tell you right now a man with 4 balls could not possibly walk
posted on May 7, 2005 04:14:02 PM new
When you make political affiliation more important than religion or beliefs then you are no longer a church and so should not be alllowed to enjoy the tax exempt status of one.
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If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on May 7, 2005 04:20:34 PM new
I think this is English:
""Church are so clubs, jingle-jingle head.
They have no 'laws' that can be applied to membership.
Get real with yourself, jester-boy.""
And ,the writer knows absolutely nothing about religions if she truly believes they have no rules or laws.
The Catlick church in Minnesota just outlawed rainbow sashes in their "christian" churches.
Seems their god did NOT create all humans so THAT was a big lie I was told when growing up. I hope every gay in the country withdraws their membership and their money(so important to church leaders) from the Catlick church.
posted on May 7, 2005 04:26:23 PM new
Churches are also non-profits. What this pastor has done violates IRS non-profit tax codes. The church should lose it's 501(c)(3). I wouldn't be surprised if someone from the IRS reads this and that's exactly what happens.
posted on May 7, 2005 04:33:20 PM new
So what? You dont have to take IRS exempt status to have and operate and church! I see plenty of them here in strip malls. And I know of at least one that has a congregation and is not tax exempt.
Classic that was wild about the rattlesnakes. The preacher made his wife stick her hand in a cage...proof of something about something of the lord...and if she got bit, she was sinful, and if not pure. She got bit and they charged him with attemped murder! But the supporters of the church rallied with him. Really fascinating story by the reporter who got drawn into it. I think he wrote book about his experience.
posted on May 7, 2005 04:38:29 PM new
WAYNESVILLE, N.C. (ABP) -- A Baptist deacon says he and eight other members of a North Carolina church were removed from membership because they disagreed with the pastor's political views.
Frank Lowe said he had been a member of the 400-member East Waynesville Baptist Church for 43 years before he and the others were voted out May 3 for not agreeing with the conservative political views of pastor Chan Chandler.
In October, one month prior to the November 2004 presidential election, Chandler announced in a sermon that anyone who was supporting John Kerry should repent or resign from the church, Lowe said, and then the pastor offered to hold the door for them to leave.
The controversy at the church reached a climax Monday, May 2, when the pastor invited all church members to a deacons meeting. At the beginning of the meeting, according to Lowe, the pastor said anyone who didn't agree with his political views should leave the meeting.
Lowe said he and eight others, including his wife, Thelma, left. The pastor then called the church into a business session and the congregation voted to terminate the memberships of those who left, Lowe said. Among those dismissed were three deacons, he said.
The pastor's apparent endorsement of a candidate for president prior to an election could endanger East Waynesville's tax-exempt status. Federal law prevents churches and other charities organized under Section 501(c)(3) of the tax code from officially endorsing political candidates or parties.
Chandler, the pastor, could not be reached for comment. WLOS-TV in nearby Asheville reported that Chandler declined an interview but said "the actions were not politically motivated."
Janet Webb, a church member who was at the meeting, declined to say what happened during the meeting but said that Chandler is "a man of God who only preaches against sin and to win people to Jesus Christ."
Lowe said he usually votes Democratic, while his wife votes Republican. But Chandler "says my political views support abortion and homosexuality, therefore that would be enough to turn me out of the church," Lowe said. "I am not -- positively not -- for either one."
If indeed Chandler's pulpit statement was made before the November election and did not indicate he was speaking only for himself, it would be a "pretty clear" violation of Internal Revenue Service rules against political endorsements by churches, said Brent Walker, executive director of the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty. That could lead the IRS to revoke East Waynesville Baptist Church's tax-exempt status.
Ralph Neas, president of the People for the American Way Foundation, called the report about the church's actions "terribly sad." "What have we come to when the doors of a church are closed to longtime members because of their political beliefs, when a pastor equates political support for the 'wrong' candidate with a sin before God?" he asked in a statement.
"Men and women of faith have every right to advocate for their political beliefs," Neas continued. "While churches, of course, can set their own membership standards, no one should punish people of faith for their political beliefs."
A North Carolina congressman has introduced legislation that would lift restrictions on political speech in churches. The Houses of Worship Free Speech Restoration Act, introduced by Rep. Walter Jones (R-N.C.), is supported by many conservative Christian groups but opposed by supporters of church-state separation.
Walker of the Baptist Joint Committee said the Waynesville church controversy "is why so many organizations are opposed to the Jones bill, because it would be so divisive -- our churches becoming 'red' churches and 'blue' churches and dividing along party lines," referring to the color designations used for political parties.
Lowe said he and his wife have been invited to other churches since the May 2 meeting. He expects they'll start attending somewhere else but wouldn't rule out an effort to "retake" the church.
Another church member, Selma Morris, said she believes the vote to remove the members isn't valid because the church bylaws weren't followed. The bylaws say a called meeting should be announced on Sunday morning. The meeting Monday was announced at the Sunday evening service, she said.
The bylaws also say a called meeting should be held two weeks after the announcement, according to Morris. The meeting was held the next night.
Morris said she wasn't at the meeting, but would have walked out with the others if she had been there. "I can't support that," she said.
posted on May 7, 2005 04:39:47 PM new
If they don't mind losing tax exempt status I have no problem with them declaring themselves a republican only organization. Afterall, it's this type of religious extremism in politics that turns away the moderates and it's the moderates that end up deciding elections.
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If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on May 7, 2005 04:45:32 PM newGeorge Bullard, associate executive director-treasurer for Baptist State Convention of North Carolina, told the Asheville Citizen-Times that a pastor has every right to disallow memberships if a church's bylaws allow for the pastor to establish criteria for membership. "Membership is a local church issue," he said. "It is not something the state convention would enter into."
Well hel1, if the associate executive director-treasurer doesnt know enough about what will and will not effect their tax status, that church must really be in some trouble!
posted on May 7, 2005 04:52:54 PM new
No church that posts a profit should be tax exempt, in my opinion. Tax them all.
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Dick Cheney: "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11..."
posted on May 7, 2005 05:28:45 PM newThis WACKO Pastor should be kicked out of the Baptist Church then this Church should lose its TAX EXEMPT STATUS.
BigPeaBrain:
All Churches should loose their Tax Exempt Status!
Crow, your right these Religious Wackos have been around a long time. One of those Religious Wacko groups is called the K.K.K.
Another one is called: The Catholic Religion!
Their leaders make Michael Jackson look like one of their Choir Boys, Oh! Maybe he was,he had to get his training somewhere!
posted on May 7, 2005 05:42:43 PM new I wouldn't be surprised if someone from the IRS reads this and that's exactly what happens...
Does anybody else find this statement totally ridiculous and paranoid?
The IRS's biggest complaint is they dont have enough employees and that the work and audit load is too much. Tax season returns just rolled in, but they're sitting around reading monitoring message boards??
.
[ edited by dblfugger9 on May 7, 2005 05:43 PM ]
posted on May 7, 2005 05:53:25 PM new
Not the reading the message board, DBL, reading the newspaper article. Give me some credit for having brains. You're probably the only one that took it that way.
posted on May 7, 2005 05:53:41 PM new
Uh, dble, I think they mean read about it in the papers not the RT......and I'm sure they know more about it than even the news reports.......
posted on May 7, 2005 06:02:09 PM new
I agree crowfarm. I'm sure they been tuned into it already too. But I am not sure the same laws apply to employees & non-profits as to the "members" of the churchs. Now if the secretary was demo and got fired for it I could see a case....But I guess we will find out eventually.
posted on May 7, 2005 06:27:40 PM new
Hey Dad, I agree any Church playing politics should lose their tax exempt status.
I also agree any Church leader from any Church should go to jail for molesting young boys or girls.
I also believe any Boy or Girl Scout Leader should also go to jail if they molest young girls or boys.
I also believe any teacher or sports coach should go to jail for molesting young boys and girls.
I am also very glad the Catholic Church is paying and will continually pay big time for years to come for covering up for their child molesting Priest.
I also believe there weren't many Catholics or Jews in the K.K.K. I think most K.K.K. people were and are Hate Filled Wackos religious church members of a non-Catholic or Jewish religion.
