In Blow to Canada's Health System, Quebec Law Is Voided
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By CLIFFORD KRAUSS
Published: June 10, 2005
TORONTO, June 9 -
The Supreme Court on Thursday struck down a Quebec law banning private medical insurance in a decision that represents an acute blow to the publicly financed national health care system.
The high court stopped short of striking down the constitutionality of the country's vaunted health care system nationwide, but [b]specialists across the legal spectrum said they expected the decision to lead to sweeping changes in the Canadian health
care system[/b].
"The language of the ruling will encourage more and more lawsuits and those suits have a greater likelihood of success in light of this judgment," said Lorne Sossin, acting dean of the University of Toronto law school.
Patrick Monahan, dean of the Osgoode Hall Law School of York University in Toronto and a well-known critic of the national health care system, was even more emphatic about the import of the decision.
"They are going to have to change the fundamental design of the system," he said. "They will have to build in an element of timely care or otherwise allow the development of a private medical system."
The Canadian health care system provides free doctor's services that are paid for by taxes. The system has generally been strongly supported by the public, and is broadly identified with the Canadian national character. Canada is the only industrialized county that outlaws privately financed purchases of core medical services.
But in recent years patients have been forced to wait longer for diagnostic tests and elective surgery, while the wealthy and well connected either sought care in the United States or used influence to jump medical lines.
The court ruled that the waiting lists had become so long that they violated patients' "life and personal security, inviolability and freedom" under the Quebec charter of human rights and freedoms, which covers about one-quarter of Canada's population.
"The evidence in this case shows that delays in the public health care system are widespread, and that, in some serious cases, patients die as a result of waiting lists for public health care," the Supreme Court ruled. "In sum, the prohibition on obtaining private health insurance is not constitutional where the public system fails to deliver reasonable services."
The case was brought to the Supreme Court by Jacques Chaoulli, a Montreal family doctor who argued his own case through the courts, and George Zeliotis, a chemical salesman who was forced to wait a year for a hip replacement while he was prohibited from paying privately for surgery. Dr. Chaoulli and Mr. Zeliotis lost in two Quebec provincial courts before the Supreme Court decided to take their appeal.
In a news conference, Dr. Chaoulli declared a victory and predicted that the decision would eventually apply to all Canada. "How could you imagine that Quebecers may live," he asked, "and the English Canadian has to die?"
There was no immediate impact on the national system outside Quebec, since the justices split by a vote of 3 t0 3 on the question of whether the Quebec ban on private medical insurance violated the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, Canada's bill of rights, as the two plaintiffs contended.
However, specialists predicted that the decision would have widespread importance.
Margaret Somerville, professor of law and medicine at McGill University, said the ruling "is extremely important" in large part because "the provinces that want to run some form of a complementary private system would probably be able to do so now."
Alberta provincial officials have long suggested that they wanted to develop a private health care system, while private diagnostic and special surgery clinics have been cropping up in Quebec, British Columbia and Ontario in recent years.
The federal government has threatened to hold back financial aid to provinces that pressed ahead with private health care, but Ms. Somerville said Ottawa would be less likely to do so now.
Dr. Chaoulli, who was born in France, has long called for Canada to adopt a two-tier, public-private health care system similar to those in France, Germany and Switzerland. Supporters of the current system, however, have argued that a two-tier system will draw doctors away from the public system, which already has a shortage of doctors, and only lengthen waiting lists.
Dr. Chaoulli has long been viewed as a gadfly in political and medical circles. He went on a hunger strike in the streets of Montreal in 1997 after he was forced to abandon a private emergency house call service.
Prime Minister Paul Martin responded to the decision by saying that his government was making progress in shortening waiting times for medical services. "What today's decision does do, however, is accentuate just how important it is to act immediately, how urgent this situation is," he acknowledged. But he rejected the notion that the ruling would bring about fundamental change. "We are not going to have a two-tier health care system in this country," Mr. Martin told reporters. "Nobody wants that. What we want to do is to strengthen the public health care system."
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I'm extremely happy to see that while their system isn't giving proper care to their citizens....that changes are beginning to take place. One small step forward....and the loosening of 'big brothers' strangle-hold on Canadian's ability to get private insurance and better care.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
[ edited by Linda_K on Jun 10, 2005 10:51 AM ]
posted on June 10, 2005 11:21:47 AM
We have had this "debate" before many times. Canadians knew the flaws but were blind to them and now they are out in the open. They deserve as we do to have good health care. So what is next for the National Health Care of Canada? I hope for them that they can fix it. Time will tell.
This is one reason the US is having problems. Although they don't have the wait for CT, MRI's or Surgery, it is the cost of these that will be difficult since there is a MRI or CT in every hospital, free standing clinic. People don't realize that when the machinery comes on the market it is already old and new ones are in the works. These diagnostic machines cost 1 million dollars or more each and how can a National Health care system factor that into the price of National Health Care? It will be difficult, and take time.
posted on June 10, 2005 11:46:41 AM
Libra, why do you say Canada has been blind to the flaws in the Health system? How so?
As for diagnostics, Canada has some of the best equipment out there. Again, getting tests isn't the problem, it's not enough doctors and nurses to help you after you've had the tests. Why would any doctor settle for $350K to $500K when they could be making millions working in the U.S.? Would you work for half or less of what your neighbour would pay you for the same job?
It defeats the whole purpose of everyone being equal in terms of health care in Canada, but it's also the sign of the times when people's only incentive is money. That's the real problem - we can't compete with the U.S.
posted on June 10, 2005 11:49:48 AM
That's just the loud mouth Quebecois..always fighting against everything and anything.. they hold the majority inone Province out of Ten and because of their big mouths,the rest of the world is under the impression that Canada is a French country. They will never get over the fact that the English won the battle and are the majority...LOL
They have been fighting forever for their Independence..for their rights to have Quebec a totally French speaking province..hell, they have even bullied the rest of Canada into making Canada legally a bi-lingual country.. all because they have the loudest mouths and are constantly in fight mode..
I'm not an expert on Canada's health care system, but I do have friends and family living in Canada and they have never, ever once had a problem with getting health care, or surgery..never waited longer than we do down here and had the best of doctors and equipment.. so, I take it with a grain of salt.. the Canadian system has worked fine for years and will continue to do so..
I even know a couple from Louisiana who couldn't afford the fertility treatments and surgery necessary to have a child.. they went up to Canada and had the surgery and treatments done up there.. they are the proud parents of a 5 year old little princess today..
I'd be curious to hear from any Canadians who post here on the RT if they have had a major struggle to get good medical treatment or surgery in Canada.. I sure haven't ever heard a Canadian knock it yet..
posted on June 10, 2005 12:58:51 PM
LOL KD - Wasn't posted as a means to inform YOU...but rather those that so support a National Health Care program HERE, in the US.
I understand that everytime I mention anything about Canada...you and kiara tend to take it as a personal attack. LOL It's NEVER been meant to do that, but rather point out the failings of your own HCS.
As for diagnostics, Canada has some of the best equipment out there.
Not from everything I've read. And what you do have is so limited in numbers that it why the waiting list is so long. Too many people needing the services, too few machines.
Again, getting tests isn't the problem, it's not enough doctors and nurses to help you after you've had the tests. Why would any doctor settle for $350K to $500K when they could be making millions working in the U.S.? [i]Would you work for half or less of what your neighbour would pay you for the same job[/i?
Your above statement address the arguements I've used against American's 'buying' into a system like yours.
Yes, they don't pay the doctors enough, and they leave....they also feel they're being overworked too. But what you don't point out is that your GOVERNMENT is the one who makes the decision on how many doctors WILL BE TRAINED. THEY are limiting those numbers for both doctors and nurses. So, it's not ONLY about $$, imo.
And as this article points out....your government has had the control to NOT ALLOW your citizens, by LAW, to make the choices that would guarantee they have a MUCH better success rate for staying alive and getting well when they do become sick.
It's like....we made a law that says you CAN'T purchase private insurance...you're just going to be FORCED to deal with the system the way it is.
And this Supreme Court ruling...made that VERY clear...it's NOT in the citizens best interest.
posted on June 10, 2005 01:21:24 PM
As I said.. I'd rather take the word of the Canadian citizens who I have personal contact with.. over articles on the Internet and especially from disgruntled French immigrants to Canada.. if he isn't happy there, why does he not go back to France, I wonder.LOL
I again ask any Canadian here on the RT to tell us about their terrible experiences with their Health System...
I've yet to hear one bad thing from any Canadian that I know... only Americans who's entire knowledge on the subject is what they read on the Internet..
I know a woman who had Lung cancer and had partial lung removed, another friend had a double mastectomy, another has had a kidney removed and yet another both knees replaced.. and on and on.. without a wait, without a problem and all are still living to bless their Canadian Equal Health Care for All..up there...and not to mention all the people living here in the US who buy their drugs cheaper from Canada.. or get medical care up there, that they wouldn't be able to afford down here..
Furthermore.. tell me what is worse, a long waiting line for medical care,or not being able to afford any care what so ever?I think I'd choose to wait in line.
[ edited by maggiemuggins on Jun 10, 2005 01:44 PM ]
posted on June 10, 2005 01:44:51 PMHi, Maggie! Welcome back!!!
My daughter and her husband lived in Canada for awhile. They were very happy with the Canadian health care system, just as your friends were.
The Canadian health care system is certainly better than the health care system in this country where over 44 million people are uninsured and many die from undiagnosed and untreated illness. People who have no health insurance generally get less preventive care, are diagnosed with more advanced diseases, receive less care and have higher mortality rates.
Even for those with health insurance, soaring health care costs are pushing U.S. families to the brink of financial ruin.
posted on June 10, 2005 01:48:15 PM
LOL....so am I to take it that we should NOT believe what their OWN Supreme Court said in their ruling?
And you're not the only one who knows or is friends with Canadian's either.
how funny though. Yes, let's believe the word of an annoymous poster who says she has friends who never had any problems over MULTIPLE studies and reports, done by the Canadian's themselves on where their health care system is failing.
I'll take THEIR word for it over yours, maggie.
I don't think so.
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
posted on June 10, 2005 01:55:27 PMThank you Helen!
Exactly, our middle class are the one's going without health care. I know my husband and I were paying 1200.00 out of pocket per month for coverage, before he went on Medicare. I now pay 450.00 per month for my personal coverage, with a 1500.00 deductible..and must choose doctors on a short list within my network... many friend and neighbors go without coverage because they choose to eat.
So it irks me when people knock a system that provides equal health care for all, even if the system has some problems...when in our own country our system only caters for the rich or very poor...and bankrupts many in-between..
posted on June 10, 2005 02:06:17 PM
Maggie! Yousumaabeech! I knew you'd come back!
Were you biting at the bit when you couldnt answer some of these posts! hahahahaha!! I'll say welcome back, but I'd better say now behave yourself, there might be a four strikes yer out law we dont know about...but somehow I get the feeling it would not apply to you even...lol>>>lol>>>
.
[ edited by dblfugger9 on Jun 10, 2005 02:07 PM ]
posted on June 10, 2005 02:12:54 PM
DBL..You have been a bad bad girl!
Maggie has been reading your posts...and I wasn't gone one day before you started hitting on my boyfriend.. big time..!
I noticed how fickle he was too, out of sight out of mind..
Okay.. what's with you making yourself Linda's personal Cheerleader? Since when does DBL follow and not lead???? [biggrin}
posted on June 10, 2005 02:32:31 PM
ooohhhh.....News and facts upset some who apparently don't like or agree with the Canadian governments Supreme court ruling and findings.
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
posted on June 10, 2005 02:45:53 PM
ohhh miss maggie, i do declare you have got me all wrong!! The dbl always take her own steps. She likes Linda! She really does. Now if I was into following I'd hook up with the beat em club here....At least Linda allows me to be me without a loyalty collar round my neck.
And what boyfriend? Oh yes, you and classic. you shared your pix's together and stuff. hahaha! But you are right, the man is a flight risk - started hitten on me the minute you left and Cheryl was ignorning him lol!
But Dbl just thinks he's silly and has just been keeping his funny bone warm for you!
.
[ edited by dblfugger9 on Jun 10, 2005 02:47 PM ]
posted on June 10, 2005 02:46:36 PM"I understand that everytime I mention anything about Canada...you and kiara tend to take it as a personal attack. LOL It's NEVER been meant to do that, but rather point out the failings of your own HCS."
I think it's the opposite Linda. Where in my post did I sound like I was taking things as a personal attack? Seeing that you're talking about Canada, and both Kiara and I live here, there's a good chance one or both of us will respond. I simply responded to what my experience has been with the health care system, and to thank-you for the update. Of course, that's not what you wanted to hear.
posted on June 10, 2005 02:46:59 PM
KD are you blind to the fact that there isn't enough diagnostic equipment to take care of your population and many that need these tests had to wait. Some had long waits. This has been happening for quite some time. It wasn't just yesterday that they figured that out. You might have good health care but if someone can't get the test they need for a diagnosis then the health care is not doing it's job. It is unfair for a patient to have to wait for their tests.
Despite a major increase in the supply of high-tech imaging equipment, Canadians could still face long waits for medical scans.
The Canadian Institute for Health Information in Ottawa recently released a study showing the number of magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) and computed tomography (CT) scanners has increased by 75 per cent over the last decade. But the report also showed Canada ranked 13th among 21 industrialized countries in the number of these scanners per million people.
"A 75 per cent increase over a decade may sound like a lot, but considering we were so far behind in the beginning, it really doesn't amount to a lot," says Dr. Mark Prieditis, executive vice-president of the Ontario Association of Radiologists.
Another area of concern highlighted in the report was that Canada's supply of medical imaging professionals has not grown to match the increased supply of new imaging equipment.
Normand Laberge, chief executive officer of the Canadian Association of Radiologists, says increases in efficiency have enabled imaging departments to "not hit the wall yet." But he pointed out the average radiologist performs 17,000 exams a year in Canada, which is 3,000 or 4,000 more than the standard rate.
Laberge says increasing the number of scanners without training more operators is "like shooting ourselves in the foot." He says governments need to invest in human resources as well as new machines, and ensure that guidelines for proper use of the machines are followed.
Geoff Ballinger, health expenditure manager for the Canadian Institute for Health Information, says it's difficult to determine the impact of additional imaging machines on wait times.
"It's not clear to us whether we need more machines or if we need to manage the machines we have differently," he says. "What seems to be happening is that while you get more and more of these high-tech machines, doctors are prescribing them more and more, rather than conventional means of diagnosing illness. So obviously that's going to put pressure on the machines, and the waiting lists may not go down as quickly as we'd like, in spite of the fact that we've installed more equipment."
posted on June 10, 2005 02:47:45 PM
DBL.. I knew you were just sticking up for Linda the underdog...you've got a big heart..
I just found it strange since you usually plow your own path...
[ edited by maggiemuggins on Jun 10, 2005 02:53 PM ]
posted on June 10, 2005 02:51:06 PM
Hahahaha........... an "I can google any topic and be an expert on it because I read it somewhere, (most often on a ragsite)" poster as opposed to ones who actually lived and breathed the experience first hand or have friends/family that do. Hahahahaha......... makes me laugh each time and always worth 'popping in' here.
Speaking of trips back........ glad to see you made it, Maggie! I missed you!
posted on June 10, 2005 02:54:55 PM
"but I do have friends and family living in Canada"
hey everyone....maggies got friends!!!<snicker>
maggie-where the hell is that pic with the dress you we're going to send me????<pout>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Baseball season has started,but they have it all wrong.3 strikes and you're out,4 balls you walk.I can tell you right now a man with 4 balls could not possibly walk
posted on June 10, 2005 02:59:13 PM
"But you are right, the man is a flight risk - started hitten on me the minute you left"
yo maggie-dont believe a word of it-"classic" is true blue.I didnt inhale either,and oral sex is not having sex right???
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Baseball season has started,but they have it all wrong.3 strikes and you're out,4 balls you walk.I can tell you right now a man with 4 balls could not possibly walk
posted on June 10, 2005 03:15:50 PM new
Thanks Kiara! Thank God for posters like you..who can think for themselves..
And yes.. how ridiculous is it that Linda and Libra presume to know more about Canada than the citizens of Canada themselves..
Are we so insecure a country that we must fault any other country or government if they enjoy a good standard of living? Or something that has worked for them and not for us.. Why are we such poor losers.
Have you noticed for instance any sports events.. like the Olympics...how if we lose.. we must find excuses and fault the winning team...
I noticed that Miss Canada won the title of Miss Universe.. when I heard the news on Fox
they had to diminish Canada's win by saying that in fact she was Russian born , implying Canada won through default via an immigrant.. LOL...why, a country as strong as ours, has to be such poor sports is beyond me...
posted on June 10, 2005 03:26:15 PM new
See what I mean, Libra?
No matter that their own doctors, studies, etc. show....they, as individual Canadians KNOW so much more. And they choose to cover their eyes and not see what's wrong in their health care system.
Well...to each his/her own...but others who are willing to see the defiencies in your health care system....are hearing about them....and reading about them....from other Canadian's in a much more professional postion than are ebay sellers.
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And no kd, I did take your post as you being sarcastic when you said..."thanks for the update". I took that to mean you already knew this info...and I was explaining it wasn't meant to inform/update you, but rather those who are willing to see that BECAUSE of the problems lives of Canadians ARE being endangered....and your government SEEs it...even if other posters here don't want to.
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
posted on June 10, 2005 03:34:23 PM newLinda and Libra presume to know more about Canada than the citizens of Canada themselves..
Maggie, the same applies to kraft and kiara then? They dont live here or only occasionally travel here...whatever,... yet they offer their constant criticism of this country and its citizens?
posted on June 10, 2005 03:42:15 PM new
Classy, check your email..
And Lindak..do you not think Canadians hear the horror stories about our health care system down here...or lack thereof? They sure do and they count themselves very fortunate.
How silly of you to turn your nose up at a system that at least includes all of it's citizens, not like ours who cater to the rich..
Let's see.. would I rather wait in line to get my surgery in Canada.. or would I prefer to die not being able to afford the surgery here in the USA, oh ...and if I choose to die without health care here in the US, do I get brownie points for denouncing the faulty Canadian system until my last breath........ hummm.. that's a tough one.. LOL
posted on June 10, 2005 03:54:09 PM new
I see your point DBL.. but if they present their opinions as just that, an opinion.. then they are entitled to them.. but when you present your words as the gospel according to Saint Linda..and not just an opinion..but rather as the indisputable truth.. that's when the sweet orange sours and turns into a grapefruit..and leaves a bitter taste on the tongue...imo..
posted on June 10, 2005 04:00:21 PM new
Like I said, maggie. I really don't care what your opinion is.
The article is about what the SC decided...and their statements as to why....it endangers the lives of those under this plan.
The court ruled that the waiting lists had become so long that they violated patients' "life and personal security, inviolability and freedom" under the Quebec charter of human rights and freedoms, which covers about one-quarter of Canada's population.
"[i]The evidence in this case shows that delays in the public health care system are widespread, and that, in some serious cases, patients die as a result of waiting lists for public health care," the Supreme Court ruled. "In sum, the prohibition on obtaining private health insurance is not constitutional where the public system fails to deliver reasonable services[i]."
You could stand in line for a zillion years....I don't really care. I do care about those here who don't want to pay 50% of the salaries to have a much less quality of medical care for themselves.
It appears to me that you are against the right for their citizens to CHOOSE FOR THEMSELVES...whether the want the medical care they need....and think it's just swell that they are FORCED to suffer and die because they aren't being provided the medical care THEY'RE PAYING THOUGH THE NOSE FOR. WEll....I don't.
It also appears you support that their GOVERNMENT decides how many potential doctors and nurses ARE ALLOWED to be trained.
I prefer our system....freedom to choose whatever job you wish to train for....not have the government playing big brother and making those decisions for us. Politicans making medical decisions for the people is not as good as the doctors making the decisions of what is necessary for 'at least basic care' of the Canadian citizens.
It appears that you also support paying 50% of their budget towards an inferior, to ours, medical system...medical equipment....trained medical personel. Take a look at how much of the overall National Canadian budget this less than adequate health care system gives them.
There is NO person in the US that can't get free medical care. And even illegals get it free. Because some don't have medical insurance doesn't mean they are turned away....because they're not.
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
This topic is 6 pages long: 1new2new3new4new5new6new
or get medical care up there, that they wouldn't be able to afford down here..