posted on October 1, 2005 12:38:40 PM new
I know quite a few people that are athiests, and most are very together, good people. They don't believe in God or an afterlife or any of the trappings. Knowing that, don't you think that people who live a good, giving lifestyle with no thoughts of rewards or free virgins or a fantasy afterlife, are actually better "Chistians" than the real ones because of it?
posted on October 1, 2005 01:37:06 PM new
I know many very good atheists too. But by definition, you can't be "Christian" if you don't believe in Christ. According to the New Testament, if you don't believe in Christ, you're going to Hell. Being a "good person" by itself is not enough. I don't make up the rules, I just report them.
But you were talking about Christians. What about all the other religions of the world? Are the Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims and Seiks not good people too?
At one time I was an atheist, and at another time was into Buddhism. Nowadays, I personally prefer the Christian way of looking at things, but I do respect the other beliefs.
I personally think being religious is better than being an atheist, regardless of which religion you choose.
"Religion is a good thing. I think everyone should have one." Dwight D. Eisenhower
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Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum sonatur.
posted on October 1, 2005 03:03:29 PM new
In the make believe world of "christian values" everyone who voted against Bush, speaks up about injustices, or isn't "saved" have a direct ticket straight to hell.
On the other hand, those who live a hypocritical lifestyle of do as I say, and not as I do, claim they are born agains, and voted for Bush have a luxurious ride straight to the pearly gates of heaven.
Religion is strictly based in philosophy, and should be treated as such... nothing more than a good old comedy stand up routine.
posted on October 1, 2005 04:17:48 PM new
"Religion is strictly based in philosophy"
Religion has ALWAYS been around, probably since the first death. Or maybe even when the first man looked at the stars, Who knows? Philosophy is a far newer invention. Religion was ancient long before the world ever heard of Socrates.
"In the make believe world of "christian values" everyone who voted against Bush, speaks up about injustices, or isn't "saved" have a direct ticket straight to hell."
That's not only a completely warped outlook, it's not even remotely true.
Abortion, homosexuality, and sex outside of marriage are considered sins. Voting for those who support these things goes against Christian beliefs. The Republican party just happens to be against these things and the Democrats appear to be either for these things are at least only weakly against them. Are ALL Republicans and Democrats the same? No. But overall, their poarties usually balance out one way or the other.
Do Republicans do "wrong" things? Sure they do, we all sin from time to time. That's the nature of humanity. But we don't elect these people to be personal models for our way of life- politicians are all scum in my opinion, we elect them to stand for the values they promote. The Conservatives vote for family values while the Liberals are more interested in Gay agendas and condoms in schools.
I don't like Bush, not by a longshot. But he supports the things I do, so I voted for him. Until the Democratic party takes a stand about right and wrong (right and wrong are NOT relative and NOT determined by polls) I'm not going to vote for them.
Politics has very little influence on religion, but religion influences all parts of a person's life. Even the beliefs of an atheist will influence their choices and decisions.
And now, the flame wars begin!
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Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum sonatur.
posted on October 1, 2005 05:53:28 PM new
Replay, that sounds interesting - your learning about different religions. That's cool.
I didn't mean Christian in the true sense, but really Christian-like in actions. The most obvious thing is a person who professes to have certain religious beliefs and convictions, yet when something happens to test their beliefs, it often turns out they are doing the very thing they claim to oppose. It's like being a hypocrite these days is in vogue. With atheists that choose to live a healthy life (no lying, stealing, murder, etc.), wouldn't they be closer to what God had in mind because they're not living that way with any rewards in mind or fear of judgment? That's all I'm saying.
posted on October 1, 2005 06:32:53 PM new
Kraft, if what you are asking is "Are some atheists better or more ethical people than some Christians?" the answer would have to be a resounding yes.
But again, from the Christian perspective, "being good" is only part of the big picture. Faith is equally if not more important than works. But that's an old question, and argued by much more educated people than I,
From the Buddhist perspective, your actions AND inner mindfulness are the key to enlightenment. Simply being good (Right Action, Right Livelihood) is very important, but being balanced internally (Right Mindfulness, Right Meditation) is even more crucial. Buddhists do not believe in God (at least not most branches)... Does that make them atheists? Good question.
It just depends on where you are coming from.
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Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum sonatur.
So what do ya mean then? Really? Are you somehow trying to pervert something around here that the very people who denounce there even IS A God, should be his/her/its' chosen or favored people or something? It's like, athiests dont believe in God, ok,.. but I'll still get them included in this God thing somehow or another. lol!
(do pass the duchie, girlfriend. I'll be sure to be able to follow you after that )
posted on October 2, 2005 10:31:59 AM new
Good one, Near.
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KD - You have said you believe in 'God', but would never answer my question that since you are so opposed to religion and speak negatively about it often.....just whose 'God' do you believe in? Where did your God begin? What has he done....what as he asked of you?
posted on October 2, 2005 11:08:25 AM new
"That's not only a completely warped outlook, it's not even remotely true."
You better ask the Bush Administration about that one... They vilify anything or anyone that remotely speaks up, as do their followers.
"Abortion, homosexuality, and sex outside of marriage are considered sins. Voting for those who support these things goes against Christian beliefs. The Republican party just happens to be against these things and the Democrats appear to be either for these things are at least only weakly against them."
"The Conservatives vote for family values while the Liberals are more interested in Gay agendas and condoms in schools."
Wow, that is a pretty bold statement, considering the DeLay supports forced abortion and prostitution in Saipan, the Mayor of Spokane Washington is blatantly homosexual and has used his "power" to offer jobs to gays he is courting online, George Bush and Rush Limbaugh are drug addicts, and on and on... To claim that Republicans are closer to "Christian Values" is like saying a dog terd on the sidewalk is Jewish. It simply doesn't work. A complete misconception, and you manage to fall for it.
The problem with your argument is that too many Republicans fall through the cracks of "the Religious Right". Hypocrisy is rampant with Republicans. "Family Values" is a complete joke when it comes to Conservative thought. There are no values. It is make believe. Just like conservatives are "fiscally conservative". Bush squandored the surplus in outrageous spending, and you have Linda here acting like "Clinton" was responsible for taxing Americans to create a surplus. How easily she forgets that Clinton didn't have a Democratic House and Senate. He worked with Republicans to create that surplus. It was a perfect example of bi-partisanship, and it worked well.
To think that Democrats have "gay" agendas and "promote condoms in schools" is like saying Republicans promote AIDS. You know it is not true. Democrats want equal rights for all Americans. Democrats want education to be based in reality. Democrats want sex education to be about abstinence until abstinence no longer works, then those who are having sex will be prepared educated how to avoid disease, pregnancy, and so on. Neocon thought of only "abstinence" is shallow, and doesn't address the real problem facing this country when it comes to teen sex. Just curious, but do you know the rate that "Christians" have pre-maritial sex? How many people waited until they were married? You want to end abortion, how about starting with the reality of safe sex? Most of us have had premaritial sex, so why should we assume that abstinence really works? It is quite hypocritical ideology to think so.
posted on October 2, 2005 11:31:20 AM new
WHOA.....hold the boat there a minute, rusty
The clinton administration in it's first term watched as their economic policy....which included increasing the tax rates for all American's....wasn't doing well at all. That is a FACT....proven, verifiable fact.
It was only in his second term and when a republican control congress decided changes were necessary....did the unemployment rate start improving. As I said....in part because he had raised taxes....in part because of cutting BACK on welfare.....setting limits on length of time those 'generational' welfare receiptents could collect funds.....in part because of the tech boom....and in part because he was decreasing our military budget/personel by 40%....and redirecting those funds to help reduce our budget.
You give clinton credit for WAY too much - and that's not what history shows. Most economists have stated clinton had LITTLE, personally, to do with the improving economy during his administration....that it's the normal ebb and flow that has always occurred. AND that because clinton was so 'tied' up with his little girlfriends....he didn't pay much attention to implimenting changes that helped the economy. That it got better on its own because he WASN'T doing anything to it.
As far as the rest of your comments......hogwash....pure hogwash.
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
posted on October 2, 2005 11:53:48 AM newHow many people waited until they were married?
My mother did, thank you.
But if you don't ever try to educate young people on abstinence, of course it will never work.
abstinence in a majority of young people not married would definitly decrease the amount of STD's and unwanted pregnancys. (just a theory, do I believe a majority will abstain? no, but it might be worth looking at!) Now if the schools would just give it a try, along with safe sex, maybe they'd get somewhere.
posted on October 2, 2005 11:55:02 AM new
Not drinking any kool-aid here rusty. The facts are there for all who seek them out.
On the other hand, your continued false accusations aren't proveable nor true.
Somethings aren't a matter of opinion....there are facts to support them. Anyone can continue spewing false accusations....as you choose to do.
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
posted on October 2, 2005 03:04:34 PM new
I agree with you Replay, that there's more to it than just acting good but isn't that just what I'm talking about? Christians claim, by their faith in God, to be on the same path as Jesus by abiding by the 10 Commandments, plus. But when push comes to shove, not only do they not act like Jesus, they act the complete opposite. That's why the rules of Christianity are always in question, imo. The hypocrisy is pandemic and even when shown the hypocrisy of their Christian belief system, they still don't see a problem.
As for faith, again I ask, what can God provide you that you can't provide for yourself? Everyone talks about how much faith they have in God. Faith in what? What is God going to be doing that you need all this faith for?
posted on October 2, 2005 04:19:34 PM new
How a faithful nation gets Jesus wrong
September 15, 2005. By Bill McKibben.
Harpers
Excerpt....
"Are Americans hypocrites? Of course they are. But most people (me, for instance) are hypocrites. The more troubling explanation for this disconnect between belief and action, I think, is that most Americans—which means most believers—have replaced the Christianity of the Bible, with its call for deep sharing and personal sacrifice, with a competing creed."
posted on October 2, 2005 04:53:18 PM new
"But when push comes to shove, not only do they not act like Jesus, they act the complete opposite."
No, thy really don't.
I'll grant you that certan high level politicians are hypocrites (See my "all politicians are scum" statement above). But they aren't typical of most Christians.
And then there are the lip-service Christians who haven't seen the inside of a church in thirty years or maybe they attend every Christmas and Easter. They've never read the Bible or attended any kind of classes. They were raised to call themselves Christians and that's about the extent of it.
Try attending a good middle-of-the-road Christian Church. No Catholics or Pentecostals, try something more in-between, like Methodists for example. You'll find extremely nice, kind, good people who actually practice what they preach. The ones who go to church because they want to, not because there is anything in it for them or they expect anything other than maybe a little social interaction. This is what Christianity is all about.
You can't just call yourself of Christian or a Mormon or a Jew or a Hindu or a Seik or a Wiccan or a Satanist and be done with it. All these things take some effort to live the life prescribed by these beliefs.
Are there bad, evil Christians? Yep. But they are certainly not in the majority and should certainly not be looked at at what Christianity is all about.
I know my local pastor cringes any time the name Jerry Falwell comes up. No matter what your group is, you're going to have a few bad apples.
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Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum sonatur.
posted on October 2, 2005 04:58:59 PM new
Helen, that's a good article and makes many valid points. There are many voices in Christianity, and obviously they cannot all be correct.
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Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum sonatur.
posted on October 2, 2005 05:08:12 PM new
"As for faith, again I ask, what can God provide you that you can't provide for yourself?"
Purpose. There is a reason for everything.
Hope. There is someone watching over us who cares.
Companionship. You never walk alone.
Love. No matter how alone you are in the world, Jesus loves you.
Guidance. Ever wanted an instruction manual for life? He's got one.
And many more that I can't just spit out immediately. Are these "Concrete" benefits? No. They're spiritual and/or emotional. But they are quite real.
"Faith in what?"
His existence, His love.
"What is God going to be doing that you need all this faith for? "
GOING to be doing?
If you mean in the future? I don't personally think Revelation has anything to do with future predictions. It was all an allegory/metaphor for life in Roman times.
If you mean Heaven? That'll be great if it happens. I'm not saying I'm good enough to get in, but I try.
As for what he does right now, see above.
And then again, there's always what NTS said. It was Pascal who said something along the lines of "If there's no God and I lived a Christian life, what am I out? If there is a God and I haven't lived a Christian life what have I lost?" several hundred years ago. Although the logic is somewhat tacky, you can't really argue with it.
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Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum sonatur.
posted on October 2, 2005 08:19:53 PM new
"where do atheists get their purpose, hope, companionship, love & guidance from? "
The obvious answer is that they don't have those things.
Purpose = We're just here, live with it or die with it, who cares?
Hope = No afterlife, just die and be done with it. No one watching out for you but yourself.
Love = From who? Just more people? That's good, but nothing transcendant about it.
Guidance = Since good & evil are all relative without beliefs, there is no guidance other than society, I'm not saying Christian morality is perfect, but it is all spelled out.
You can probably make a decent argument about an atheist's hope, but I don't see where an atheist can have any of those other things.
Now you've gone and mad me feel sad about all thhe atheists out there and what they're missing out on. Wanna convert?
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Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum sonatur.
posted on October 3, 2005 06:33:50 AM new
posted on October 1, 2005 08:45:06 AM
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We gather in this safe little room, in a world with so much death. It overwhelms us, all the death.
In the foreground are the thousands of deaths from the hurricane in New Orleans, and the survivors who are beginning to arrive in Austin for an indefinite stay. We read that the levees failed partly because over 40% of the funds requested for them were diverted to the war in Iraq.
The ironies abound. An illegal invasion of Iraq to liberate them from their oil, while a hurricane wipes out 20-25% of our own capacity for oil production in the Gulf of Mexico. President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela has offered to send inexpensive oil to help with our oil shortage, shortly after one of America’s official Christian ministers urged our government to murder him - and the State Department is balking at accepting Chavez’s offer, for fear they may lose face.
So the games continue: the games of politics, one-up-manship, command and control, the illegal war. And the games and political intrigue can almost blind us to all the death.
But we are not blind, and our hearts hurt when we try to wrap them around so many dead brothers and sisters, in Louisiana or Iraq, so many crying, angry and grieving families, in New Orleans or Baghdad. At the moment of grief, the cause of death pales beside the awful reality of death, and of lives of survivors changing in unknown ways as they struggle on. And as we struggle on. My mind called on the words of an earlier preacher, John Donne:
No man is an island, entire of itself; every [one] is a piece of the Continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were; any one’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in Humankind. And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls: It tolls for thee.
We are surrounded by death this morning, near and far, from causes we can not easily control. This morning, we do not need to solve these problems. We only need to be aware of them, to feel them, to let our hearts and minds reach out to feel that we are all connected, and the loss of so many of our connections diminishes our own souls, our dearest world. We need each other.
Let us be gentle with one another as we begin to grieve our way through the death, all the death. Amen.
SERMON: WWJD?
You’ve never paid so much for gasoline in your whole life, and the prices promise to keep rising, as we’ve lost 20-25% of our ability to produce oil because of the hurricane damage in New Orleans and at its many offshore drilling rigs - and now Saudi Arabia is admitting that it can’t increase its oil production. So some of the rants of people claiming that the world is running out of enough oil no longer seem like rants.
We’ve suffered the worst natural disaster in the history of the United States, with a death toll in the thousands and perhaps tens of thousands before it is through. And one factor in the levees that failed in New Orleans was the fact that tens of millions of dollars had been diverted to fund the illegal invasion of Iraq, and the war we now know to be based on contrived lies manufactured to serve the imperialistic agenda of the neo-conservatives who have taken over America.
The religious and political right are wrong about almost everything they say: on religion, the economy, sanctioning torture, killing over 100,000 of our brothers and sisters in Iraq - everything. And the religious and political left seem either too blind or too gutless to say or do anything that matters, as they have endorsed the war, the transfer of America’s wealth to the greediest of our individuals and corporations. Right now, it seems the platform of the Democratic party can only be “Wouldn’t you rather be robbed by Democrats?” And I’m not sure people would.
Asking what Jesus would do seems ridiculous and redundant!
Instead, I’m reminded of words from the great American philosopher Lily Tomlin, when she said “No matter how cynical I get, I just can’t keep up!”
Many Christians, including all the Christian ministers in town that I know - several of whom have preached here during our January Round Robin - are troubled and embarrassed by the way their religion has been hijacked, both by politicians and preachers.
And the voices from the religious right are never asking WWJD. They are so busy telling you who God hates or wants dead, that you realize this god of theirs really is a god of hate rather than love. And the reason they can’t ask WWJD is because you just can’t turn Jesus into a bigot, or a prophet of hate, or an ally of the rich against the poor.
In fact, when you hear people today asking WWJD, or putting WWJD bumper stickers on their cars, it’s almost always to criticize the direction in which our country is being led: “Who Would Jesus Bomb?” “Who Would Jesus Hate?” They’re rhetorical questions. Jesus wouldn’t bomb anybody. And the people he would be most likely to hate today are the Christians who have created such an ignorant, bigoted and hateful religion in his name.
Ironically, they are a persuasive argument for Unintelligent Design. For no intelligent designer would have designed people so willfully ignorant of science, sexuality or simple human decency. And no Christian deity would have permitted the most vocal Christians of today to drag Christianity into such foul gutters, in the name of Jesus.
posted on October 3, 2005 06:39:59 AM new
I don't need a "crutch" of fairy tales to get me through life.
You KNOW there's a heaven , an afterlife?
A god?
Please prove it.
You can't, it's a belief, not a fact.
Smugness does not necessarily mean goodness.
If you can't think for yourself about what is right and what is wrong then you need a crutch.
If "christians" advocate genocide then I want no part of them....they have no morals , no conscience, no soul, no decency, no mercy, no love, their god must've, and should have, forsaken them long ago.
Leave it to Mingo to prove my point. She's an atheist and has no hope, no guidance, no love, no purpose. Just bitterness against anyone who isn't as miserable as she is, She didn't even read my previous posts where I explain that the President and politicians are NOT representative of most Christians.
Can I prove there is a God? Of course not, no one can. There have been many attempts throughout history to prove God's existence philoophically, logically, or whatever. I'll be the first to say they are all fallacious.
You cannot prove there is a God. FAITH is the entire point.
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Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum sonatur.
