WashingtoneBayer
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posted on October 16, 2005 06:07:35 PM new
NOT!
It seems like a neo-nazi walk, not even a march, torched off a riot. Justifying what they were going to walk for about in the first place.
A person lost their place of business, cars were vandalized.
Mayor was the threatend to be shot.
For everyone who thinks America still supports free speech, look to Toledo, Ohio.
Ron
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fenix03
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posted on October 16, 2005 06:25:34 PM new
Actually Ron - the "Parade" was canceled by officials and most of the participants had apparently left. Many people however had come in to town, prepared to be confrontational when the parade was canceled, they forgot to cancel their confrontation.
Also, as the City officials pointed out this morning, all of this took place in a one square mile area of a large city.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
An intelligent deaf-mute is better than an ignorant person who can speak.
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WashingtoneBayer
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posted on October 16, 2005 07:08:34 PM new
So because this only took place in one small section of the city you think it is ok?
It was ok that those people came to be confrontational?
It was ok to vandalize cars and burn a business?
Large city? Yeah I guess one that has a little over 300,000 people and 84 sq miles of area could be considered large.
It is funny how people are selective in thier acceptance of "free speech".
Ron
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fenix03
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posted on October 16, 2005 08:50:12 PM new
No, I think that a bunch of thugs decided to act like thugs. What does that have to do with the support of free speech in a city of over a quarter million people, the vast majority of which had no part what so ever in the events. In fact, most of those that did, were not from Toledo.
I don't get the point you are trying to make. When thugs make idiots of themselves outside a sports arena after a game it does not mean they are anti-basketball so why is it that when they do it in the streets after an event that never happened mean that they are anti free speech?
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
An intelligent deaf-mute is better than an ignorant person who can speak.
[ edited by fenix03 on Oct 16, 2005 08:50 PM ]
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WashingtoneBayer
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posted on October 16, 2005 09:00:52 PM new
The PEOPLE of Toledo are upset that the city even allowed them to congregate. The "thugs" as you call 'em are just a side note to this.
My point is that no matter what we allow free speech in this country, whether it be Islamic clerics or KKK or Neo-Nazis or Louis Farrakahn, they all have the right to speak.
It just amazes me how quickly people will attempt to censor that freedom.
People may not like the speech, but if you don't listen it will die.
Ron
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fenix03
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posted on October 17, 2005 05:52:39 AM new
Don't you find it at all ironic that you feel that the best way to show support for freedom of speech is to sit down and shut up?
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
An intelligent deaf-mute is better than an ignorant person who can speak.
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WashingtoneBayer
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posted on October 17, 2005 06:01:33 AM new
Are you saying that if people don't listen and would if ignored the march it would of been successful?
Oh and where did I say sit down and shut up?
Is that what you do when you don't listen?
Ron
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fenix03
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posted on October 17, 2005 07:32:06 AM new
Ron - There was no march. It was cancelled. The violence was not a result of trying to shut someone up - they never spoke.
It was thugs behaving like thugs.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
An intelligent deaf-mute is better than an ignorant person who can speak.
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WashingtoneBayer
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posted on October 17, 2005 07:45:12 AM new
Fenix, the march did not take place because of the violence, they were at the park ready to begin when the violence took place.
That was when the decision not to go was made and the march cancelled.
So in effect the neo-nazi's made their point.
Those thugs you keep talking about had women and children mixed in with them.
110 arrests.
Ron
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cblev65252
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posted on October 17, 2005 07:50:28 AM new
It was wrong for these people to become confrontational. Unfortunately, during these kinds of events people become overly emotional. We had a rally of the KKK here in 1999 that coincided with the opening of the new Brown's stadium. There was worry because of the large number of people who were going to be downtown. It was uneventful. In fact, the people here showed their disgust by not even showing up. The KKK considered the rally to be unsuccessful because of that. Rather than confronting a group and becoming riotous, you prove a better point by paying no attention to it at all.
Whether we like what these groups have to say or not, they have a right to say it. If you don't agree with it, starting a riot doesn't do anything to better your position. As much as the people of this city hate the KKK, the mayor and city officials did what they could to protect their First Amendment rights. And, the mayor at the time was African American.
BTW - Toledo votes mostly republican, Cleveland votes democratic.
Cheryl
[ edited by cblev65252 on Oct 17, 2005 07:51 AM ]
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fenix03
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posted on October 17, 2005 08:12:14 AM new
Cheryl - the problem with this one was that the KKK picked a neighborhood already rife with tension. they set the area up. At some point in time city officials should have said "You can say whatever you want to say, but you are not going to say it right there." It was the equivalent of yelling fire in a movie theater.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
An intelligent deaf-mute is better than an ignorant person who can speak.
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fenix03
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posted on October 17, 2005 08:13:48 AM new
::Those thugs you keep talking about had women and children mixed in with them.::
What's wrong Ron - did you not know that women and teens can be just as thugish as 25 years men?
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
An intelligent deaf-mute is better than an ignorant person who can speak.
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WashingtoneBayer
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posted on October 17, 2005 09:27:57 AM new
Actually fenix, it never occured to me to place women and children in that category.
But then again that is progress. 
Ron
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cblev65252
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posted on October 17, 2005 10:25:52 AM new
fenix
I guess it would be the same if the neo-Nazis walked in Shaker Heights or Beachwood, Ohio. Both are largely Jewish communities. I still can't see a riot happening in either of those communities. They're very wealthy working class communities that, I believe, would choose to just show pity on the neo-natzis' ignorance.
On the other hand, the KKK chose downtown Cleveland. There are still a lot of racial tensions here in Cleveland. Looking back, it is surprising that it was so uneventful.
Cheryl
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dblfugger9
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posted on October 17, 2005 11:56:36 AM new
They're very wealthy working class
Hi Cheryl, did you just make up a new class? 
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cblev65252
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posted on October 17, 2005 05:18:07 PM new
LOL, Dbl. Most of the people in these two cities are doctors, lawyers, etc. Professionals. And, those I know are very hard working people. They're wealthy not because someone left them a lot of money, but because they continue to work for it. Of course, there are those of "old money" there. I'm in awe at the houses. If you love turn of the century to 1940's mansions, Shaker Heights is loaded with them.
Cheryl
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colin
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posted on October 17, 2005 06:09:53 PM new
After reading a little more about this, I'll have to say the National Socialist Movement made there point. Without even finishing their march.
I have to think they're getting smarter.
I have to think they knew just what would happen and it did.
It doesn't look very good for the Black leaders of Toledo nor the black people of Toledo in general.
Yes it may have been a few (300 to 600 as I've read) but the whole world was watching.
Is this supposed to be expected behavior?
amen,
Reverend Colin
http://www.reverendcolin.com
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dblfugger9
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posted on October 18, 2005 05:10:42 AM new
If you love turn of the century to 1940's mansions, Shaker Heights is loaded with them.
Yea...I think I saw a show on the homes there one time,..Shaker Heights, rings a bell...unless there is a Shaker Heights some where else also?. I dont even know how I popped onto it, but I watched it for awhile, and I remember the homes sure were quite magnificent.
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