posted on March 26, 2007 09:11:12 AM new
Here's a look at the Other Utah we lived inside for 21 years, living inside that culture of "the leaders are always right," and "when the prophet speaks, the thinking has been done" (actual quote from church authorities). There's hope for the state, but it's sloooooow.
In Utah, an Opponent of the ‘Culture of Obedience’
Ted S. Warren/Associated Press
Mayor Rocky Anderson has become a national anti-Bush spokesman
By KIRK JOHNSON
Published: March 22, 2007
SALT LAKE CITY — Rocky Anderson may not be the most liberal mayor in America. But here in the most conservative state, he might as well be.
Video: Rocky Anderson Speaking in Olympia, Wa. video.google.com
Ted S. Warren/Associated Press
Mayor Rocky Anderson taking his message to Olympia, Wash.
Just being himself is enough to galvanize, divide or enrage people who have followed his career as Salt Lake City’s mayor, and who are now watching him become, in the twilight of his final term, a national spokesman for the excoriation and impeachment of President Bush.
[“President Bush is a war criminal,” Mr. Anderson, a Democrat, said at a rally here on Monday marking the fourth anniversary of the war in Iraq. “Let impeachment be the first step toward national reconciliation — and toward penance for the outrages committed in our nation’s name.”]
Mr. Anderson, a 55-year-old lapsed Mormon and former civil litigator with a rich baritone and a mane of patrician-silver hair, is no stranger to strong talk and political stances that leave his audiences breathless with exasperation, admiration or sometimes a mixture of both.
He has presented his densely footnoted constitutional argument against Mr. Bush’s presidency in speeches from the Washington Legislature to peace rallies in Washington, D.C., making him a favorite punching bag of conservative talk show hosts and bloggers well beyond his home state. [He went on Bill O’Reilly’s show on Fox News on Tuesday, for example, and Mr. O’Reilly promptly called him “a kook.”]
Mr. Anderson cheerfully conceded in an interview in his office that he had no hope whatsoever of a statewide political future in Utah because people outside Salt Lake City — who are far more likely to be conservative, Republican and members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints — are likely to hate him. But in what has been a trademark of his seven years in office, he can seem equally disdainful of those who disdain him.
“There’s a real resistance to change and an almost pathological devotion to leaders simply because they’re leaders,” he said, in describing fellow Utahans who do not share his views and who in large numbers support the president (and gave him 72 percent of their vote in 2004). “There’s a dangerous culture of obedience throughout much of this country that’s worse in Utah than anywhere.”
Critics and supporters alike agree that Mr. Anderson — whose given name is Ross but who is known by almost everyone here as Rocky, with no last name necessary — is genuinely passionate and devoted to the causes he has brought to the mayor’s office, including global warming, genocide in Darfur, gay and lesbian rights and the war in Iraq.
But those efforts, many people say, have sometimes made him seem like more of a mayor to the world than a fix-the-potholes, sweep-the-sidewalks business-booster for this city of 180,000 people.
And in pursuing those political interests with the same confrontational style that he has brought to the fight for impeachment in recent months, Mr. Anderson has left burned bridges behind him the way other people leave fingerprints.
“What he’s doing lets people know that free speech is alive and well in Salt Lake City,” said K. Eric Jergensen, a member of the City Council, which, like the mayor’s office, is formally nonpartisan, though Mr. Jergensen described himself as a Republican.
“But it seems we’ve lost our ability to sit down amicably and discuss things,” Mr. Jergensen added. “When we step to the rhetorical sidelines and all we do is spit venom and fire, it isn’t effective.”
Mr. Anderson, who described himself as an exacting boss — others say workaholic micromanager — has gone through City Hall employees with blazing regularity, including at least five chiefs of staff.
In 2001, he alienated the Republican-controlled Legislature by joining with environmentalists and mass-transit advocates in a lawsuit to block a major north-south highway project that Mr. Anderson said would harm air quality and wetlands near the Great Salt Lake.
He rarely went to the Capitol after that to lobby on the city’s behalf, City Council members and former staff members said, because everybody knew it would be counterproductive.
Even some fellow Democrats say the city probably suffered from the anti-Rocky backlash.
“He is one of those politicians who people love to hate, and sometimes he gave the Legislature a great excuse not to do their jobs where Salt Lake City was concerned,” said Nancy Saxton, a Democrat and City Council member who is running for mayor in the November election.
Mr. Anderson announced last July that he would not seek a third term, saying he wanted to devote the rest of his life to grass-roots organizing involving human rights and global warming. He said in the interview that he had not made specific plans.
One of the mayor’s former chiefs of staff, Deeda Seed, who was fired in 2005, described her former boss this way: “I used to be good friends with him. He’s incredibly intelligent. He is delightful to talk to. He can be a really, really good friend. He could just benefit from a little therapy.”
(Ms. Seed said Mr. Anderson fired her after they disagreed on policy issues, including how to handle the news media. He said she was “almost a complete disaster as an employee and I had no choice but to fire her.”)
Supporters say Mr. Anderson has made Utah more interesting, at the very least, by highlighting the political diversity that exists at the state’s heart, in the state’s capital and largest city. He first won office in 1999, and re-election in 2003, essentially by winning the votes of non-Mormons, who constitute about 55 percent of the city’s population. (Statewide, Mormons constitute about two-thirds of the population.) In his last election, he got 54 percent of the vote, even though about 80 percent of Mormons voted against him, he said.
Those election patterns — non-Mormons mostly for Mr. Anderson, Mormons mostly against — set the rhythm for a mayoral administration that many people say has isolated Salt Lake City even more by emphasizing that the city’s political and cultural distinctiveness is also about religion and that being non-Mormon is synonymous with being liberal and urban and different.
“It’s embarrassing for the rest of us; Mayor Anderson is so over the top, nobody wants to be associated with him,” said Matthew R. Godfrey, mayor of the nearby city of Ogden. Mr. Godfrey said Mr. Anderson had not worked well with other mayors across the state and that he was out of step with fellow Utahans.
Mr. Anderson, who has been married and divorced twice, with a son now in college, said he believed that divisiveness could be a virtue. For too long, he said, Democrats have run toward the center, away from confrontation. And in a conservative place like Utah, he said, he just has to push harder.
“If you take a principled point of view and people fall down on one side or the other, you can either be characterized as being principled or being tough,” he said. “Or you can be dismissed as being divisive, and I think if that’s the definition of divisive, we need more people in politics who are divisive.”
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"There is more to life than increasing its speed." --Mahatma Gandhi
posted on March 26, 2007 09:46:02 AM new
He sounds like a "we need more TRUE Americans just like him" type of person.
Fun to see religious freaks like the Mormons slapped around a little
""In 2001, he alienated the Republican-controlled Legislature by joining with environmentalists and mass-transit advocates in a lawsuit to block a major north-south highway project that Mr. Anderson said would harm air quality and wetlands near the Great Salt Lake.""
Ah ha, the not-so-secret secret "One World" highway project.
""“There’s a real resistance to change and an almost pathological devotion to leaders simply because they’re leaders,” ""
posted on March 26, 2007 04:02:00 PM new
interesting article Roadsmith, thank you! I have some business connections with Mormon ranchers in Utah. I've always found them to be above board and honest in their dealings with me, and never afraid to stay for the party here at the ranch when they come down to buy or sell a horse, though they forego the cocktails. My lifestyle isn't a threat to them as I'm not "among" them I guess. I expect that if I was a neighbor, their attitudes might be different.
Somebody, I forget who, wrote that Mormonism is the product of "rural" minds. In so far as it takes small, insular communities of like minded folks to perpetuate hard to hold beliefs, I guess that's true. Must be why SLC has gradually given up it's Mormon base.
posted on March 27, 2007 11:16:08 AM new
Profe--Yes, individually the Mormon neighbors of ours were nice people--although a bit clannish. The difference within Utah is that they're everywhere! When I saw our neighbor distributing the monthly Ward newspaper, he stopped at nearly every house. And so they keep close tabs on each other, and report infractions to the Bishop.
I learned by accident (wasn't supposed to know) that any job that was going to come open, in our city, was listed immediately in the Mormon community via pamphlet or such so they'd have first crack at openings. They like to help their own.
It's VERY different outside of the state (although don't Southern Idaho in that--it's like another Utah). The Mormons are much looser. And easier to get to know.
_____________________
"There is more to life than increasing its speed." --Mahatma Gandhi
posted on March 29, 2007 01:25:24 PM new
Since those who have worked with him, along with O'Reilly see him as a 'kook' and 'one in need of therapy'......I'll take their word for it.
roadsmith continues to bash Mormans. Why? Only she really knows....but with so many anti-Morman threads she posts....she's no better than most liberals who are always slamming Christians.
Must make them feel better about themselves.....but shameful imo.
As far as mingo goes....she's an out and out HATER of all religions. It's not JUST against Mormans.....she's an atheist as are other liberals who post here.
Slamming the religions of others makes them feel superior in some way, I guess. tsk tsk tsk
"While the democratic party complains about everything THIS President does to protect our Nation": "What would a Democrat president have done at that point?"
"Apparently, the answer is: Sit back and wait for the next terrorist attack."
posted on March 29, 2007 03:38:29 PM new
If "bashing" Mormons is the same as telling it like it is, then I guess I'm guilty, LOLinda. There are thousands of us "gentiles" who've lived among them who will tell you what I've told you.
My own parents moved to a 300-population village in Northern Utah when they retired from their Phoenix church and started an innocent Bible study group (Dad was a minister) for the handful of Protestants living there in the 1970s. Mom and Dad were warned to get out of town, there was property damage and refusal to give town services to them. To their credit, they stuck it out--and today there's a beautiful little church, steeple & all, a Christian education building, and a parsonage--all accomplished in 5 years. Don't tell me how to feel about The Church, Linda!
I know the church's quest for domination culturally and religiously, and I know their legend about a righteous leader saving this nation. I see how they're pushing Mitt Romney right now, and the alarm bells are going off--not just for me but for many others.
I talk about the church -- now -- because it's coming to the forefront of national politics -- now.
_____________________
"There is more to life than increasing its speed." --Mahatma Gandhi
posted on March 29, 2007 05:11:10 PM new
It's important to point out that most Christians know that a belief in the separation of church and state is not "bashing Christians".
posted on March 29, 2007 06:58:51 PM new
I call your continuing bashing of Mormans as I see it, roadsmith.
It shows me your lack of tolerance for those of a different religion/faith than you believe in. Imo, there's no reason to put others down for their beliefs. You don't agree with them, fine....but continued bashing shows a much deeper problem in my opinion.
And you ARE a Morman basher....no doubt about that.
I would have thought the daughter of a preacher no less would be more accepting. Obviously you're not.
"While the democratic party complains about everything THIS President does to protect our Nation": "What would a Democrat president have done at that point?"
"Apparently, the answer is: Sit back and wait for the next terrorist attack."
posted on March 29, 2007 07:09:29 PM new
And hellen brings up another good point......all those dem candidates who continue campaigning in CHURCHES especially in the South....are obviousl hypocrites when they speak about the so called 'separation of church and state'. Otherwise they wouldn't be doing ANY campaigning in housea of WORSHIP. tsk tsk tsk
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posted on March 29, 2007 07:35:03 PM new
I see precious little in this thread about what Mormons believe.
Roadsmith, I for one don't think you're bashing Mormons for their beliefs. Quite the contrary, you're bashing them for the way they have been known to treat "Gentiles" in Mormon dominated communities. It has nothing to do with what they do or don't believe. It's also in large measure no different than the way Catholics or Jews have sometimes been treated in midwestern or southern communities dominated by members of Pentecostal faiths, or the way Protestants are treated by the Catholic majority in Ireland. For that matter, it's not a whole lot different than the way Christians, Manichaens, Zoroastrians, Ba'haiis (sp?) and Jews are treated today in Muslim countries.
posted on March 29, 2007 09:25:26 PM new
Bashing is bashing. Period.
No matter who is directing it at another religion/belief system.
And maybe roadsmith can name ANY religion where they don't have a 'culture of obedience'. I'd bet even her own father's religion did - and I'm SURE he wasn't a Morman.
This is not an issue that applies ONLY to Mormans. But roadsmith continues to only bash Mormons....not just chosing to talk about ALL religions.
posted on March 29, 2007 09:44:59 PM new
Thanks, profe
And, Linda, the blind obedience I see in that church is worse than any in any Christian denomination that I've ever known. Lord knows my father's parisioners were free to disagree with him. There's a history of accepted dissent going back to Martin Luther, in most protestant denominations. And Dad didn't EVER tell any of them to destroy property to prevent another religion coming to an area. I think that would have been non-Christian.
Furthermore, I have criticized the church I grew up in, on other threads here, for its narrowness and silly, no-makeup sleeves-below-the-elbows rules.
I've said often that by definition a Real God cannot care if we are baptized by sprinkling or immersion!!! A Real God isn't a petty tyrant; that's a little tin statue sitting on a windowsill. The God I believe in is the God of the Universe.
_____________________
"There is more to life than increasing its speed." --Mahatma Gandhi
posted on March 29, 2007 09:53:56 PM new
But you DO continue to BASH only mormons.
So what you say and what you actually do ARE much different.
"While the democratic party complains about everything THIS President does to protect our Nation": "What would a Democrat president have done at that point?"
"Apparently, the answer is: Sit back and wait for the next terrorist attack."
posted on March 29, 2007 11:43:43 PM new
Oh boy, duhlinduh's back and speaking for others again....
"""As far as mingo goes....she's an out and out HATER of all religions. It's not JUST against Mormans.....she's an atheist as are other liberals who post here.""
No, stupid I don't hate all religions.....
Do I think they're silly and destructive...YOU BET!
Do I think they're filled with evil hypocrites like you ...damn tootin' I do.
I see you have no compunction about bashing atheists, which BTW, I'm not.
posted on March 30, 2007 05:18:11 AM new Linda, no group, religious or otherwise should be sacrosanct and beyond criticism. What a fanatical idea to believe that a discussion of a religion is in your limited estimation "bashing". And how hypocritical coming from you with your outrageous prejudice toward Muslims.
posted on March 30, 2007 07:26:04 AM new
hellen....again, I'll ask you then to inform all of us WHICH religion doesn't have a 'culture of obdience' to their beliefs?
NONE....is the correct answer.
As far as my position on muslims......I have YET to see ANY other religion call for our destruction - stating that as their goal. Have YOU? lol
But I know...you'll support/defend ANY who call for America's defeat.
"While the democratic party complains about everything THIS President does to protect our Nation": "What would a Democrat president have done at that point?"
"Apparently, the answer is: Sit back and wait for the next terrorist attack."
posted on March 30, 2007 07:28:12 AM new
Too funny that mingo is NOW denying that she's admitted she's an atheist. figures....lol
NOW she believes in God? lol sure mingo....and I've got a bridge to sell you....in Iran.
"While the democratic party complains about everything THIS President does to protect our Nation": "What would a Democrat president have done at that point?"
"Apparently, the answer is: Sit back and wait for the next terrorist attack."
posted on March 30, 2007 07:43:38 AM new
Isn't it pathetic that linduh doesn't understand that her beloved war is allegedly being fought for a country that's 97% MUSLIM.
And, being quite stupid she says, "mingo is NOW denying that she's admitted she's an atheist."
Again, no proof of that because she CAN'T show where I ever denied it.
WHY SHOULD I DENY IT ?
I have said I was an atheist...however, unlike linduh who has a cement block for a brain, I can change my mind.
I am now, rather than an atheist, an " I don't really care -ist"...and I don't.
The point is I don't care enough because it just doesn't matter.
Anyone can believe anthing when it comes to religion and/or whether there's a "god" or not....but that doesn't make it true.
Poor uneducated linduh thinks there is only two options, believe in a god or not...how ....quaint......
posted on March 31, 2007 09:24:45 PM new
Kozersky: No, I'm not; I wouldn't even know how to find it on our expanded basic channels. But the 21 years we lived in Utah, I had it on most of the weekend, twice a year, during the days. It was interesting to me to listen to the sermons from "the twelve" (the top leadership of the church) and "the seventies," the next rank down, and the prophet himself if he was able to get to the pulpit and put words together, (they're usually 70 - 90 years old by the time they attain that position) and see if I could figure out which church problem underlay the that season's sermons.
One year I did figure it out easily; seems the singles classes in the churches were being INFILTRATED BY OLD PEOPLE! PEOPLE OVER 35! WHO WERE SINGLE! It was interfering with, ummmmm, the unstated purposes of the singles groups--get those kids married in the temple and onward into their lives with lots of children.
A man I worked with when I was at the chamber of commerce was a stake president (over a bunch of wards and bishops). I asked him to verify for me if I'd figured out the current big issue that year, and he told me I was right.
There was one nifty older church leader from Holland, Jakob DeJaeger, who was a lot like my father in his comfortable stance in the pulpit, amusing, articulate, sweet. I liked him a lot.
A friend of mine who worked for a bigger chamber used to sing in the Mormon choir; she told me one time that she could watch the choir with me and point out which ones smoked, which ones drank, etc. A small minority, of course, but they're supposed to have high standing in the church to even get into the choir--have their temple recommends in good order, prove they tithe, etc. Without the temple recommend from their bishop, they wouldn't even be allowed to attend their own kids' temple wedding ceremonies.
And, to try to head off that obnoxious Linda, I don't just bash the Mormons; when other churches come up, I have something to say about them too--IF I've lived among them and know as much about their structure and beliefs. But the "culture of obedience" is much much stronger in that church and is enforced to the point of subjugation--at least within the borders of Utah.
_____________________
"There is more to life than increasing its speed." --Mahatma Gandhi
[ edited by Roadsmith on Mar 31, 2007 09:28 PM ]
