posted on April 12, 2007 08:22:37 PM
I find this week to be of significant interest for two reasons. We, as a country are faced with two sides of the same coin... racism, sexism, and bigotry. Ironically, with this debate over Imus, Rutgers and Duke atheletes, Al Sharpton, etc. the most significant thing to come out of this is one simple fact. Racism and Bigotry are alive and kicking in modern America on all sides of the fence. I have been quite happy to see significant discussions on this topic, and find it also quite disappointing that liberals and conservatives are both pointing fingers at each other over the issue instead of directing their anger at the real culprit... Ourselves. It is obvious that we as a nation still have too many wounds to heal when it comes to Civil Rights, Freedom of Speech, and how both of these things often clash.
Here is an interesting perspective from an African American writer for CBS.
posted on April 12, 2007 08:27:34 PM
Oh Shag, long before these incidents you could easily find sexism, fear and hatred of women and their rights, and racism right here in Vendio City!
posted on April 12, 2007 08:46:21 PM
It's time Imus is taken off the air. I appreciate free speech as much as the next guy, but this time he has gone too far. It his his right to speak his mind. It is my right to boycott his sponsors. Back track all you want to on your way to the unemployment line.
posted on April 12, 2007 08:58:35 PM
I believe that racism won't EVER die off, until the blacks quit asking for everything to be given to them....equally.
Until blacks tell the black leaders LIKE sharpton and jackson to shut up. They THRIVE on promoting racism.
Rather than for them to get educated [as a whole] and work to achieve what is and has been for a long, long time available for them to take advantage of...just like every other race/culture in the US does.
I believe blacks like Bill Cosby, and other accomplished black men just like him, hit the nail on the head with exactly what's wrong with the black youth of today....and their parents.
posted on April 12, 2007 09:03:56 PM
linduh, that's the weakest, most stupid argument to defend your inherent racism I've ever seen.....why don't you have the guts to just say outright that you are a racist...too cowardly ????
Who the hell are you to make decisions for an entire race ???? You're hardly an expert...you're hardly coherent....
posted on April 12, 2007 09:10:44 PM
I really love Bill C. Have for more years than I want to attest to. Agree with his stance on parental responsibility. Strongly disagree that he would support Imus' racist and sexist comments. Edited to add : for those not following the news, Imus has labeled the Rutgers highly-accomplished afro-american women as nappy-headed whores who did not win their basketball game.
[ edited by pixiamom on Apr 12, 2007 09:22 PM ]
posted on April 12, 2007 09:34:12 PM
The only way this will ever change is to teach children from a young age what is acceptable in speech and how to treat others with respect but I don't see that happening anytime soon.
Children learn from their parents, their religious leaders, their political leaders, television shows and music and many times they aren't the best examples for any child, no matter what race they are.
If anyone grows up to hate or fear those within their own neighborhood or country and speaks unkindly of them and shows intolerance it's not a big jump to start hating those in other countries. Some political leaders and religious leaders almost encourage others to hate and fear others and consider them the enemy, even when the enemy isn't clearly defined.
posted on April 12, 2007 09:35:42 PM
Linda,it was you that posted Crosby's name first in this thread. Are you willing to agree that Bill Crosby does not agree with your racist stance?
posted on April 12, 2007 09:45:21 PM
Don't pull in well-loved names in support of your argument unless they are in support of your argument. Political Science 101.
posted on April 12, 2007 09:56:41 PM
I asked the same question yesterday....put it to any of you liberals who take the position that SOME speech shouldn't be allowed.
And no, as we see here....few agree on much of anything.
The same applies to free speech. What you may find offensive I don't. And visa versa.
Especially when it comes to religious groups vs. atheists/secular. Especially when it comes to liberals vs. conservatives.
And I'm saying YOU don't get to DECIDE for me what I'll teach MY children. Even though we don't agree.
But according to you....I should be forced to teach my children YOUR opinions/views/ and what YOU have decided is allowed.
That's why all speech should be left alone. With the exception I personally believe is necessary.
But there IS no agreement on what's 'acceptable speech'. Not at ALL.
posted on April 12, 2007 10:11:33 PMAnd I'm saying YOU don't get to DECIDE for me what I'll teach MY children. Even though we don't agree.
Nowhere did I say that I get to decide how any parent raises his child, Linda_K. If you raised yours with the same hatred and bigotry and racism as well as the intolerance to others' opinions and free speech that you've shown here over the years, that was entirely your decision.
If any child is taught to disparage others, then the problems start. Little children are not born to hate, they learn hatred and many times they learn it right at home from their own parents.
posted on April 12, 2007 10:18:12 PM
What I'm trying to get you to GRASP kiara....is hate doesn't have anything to do with a LOT of what liberals CLAIM IS hate speech.
For example.
Christians believe homosexual relationships are not approved of in the Bible.
Most secularists/atheists/etc. wouldn't want them teaching their children that gay sex is wrong. [according to their religion]
But YOU ....believing that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality...would see that as HATE speech....and thus fight for/agree with a LAW being passed to LIMIT their FREE SPEECH.
THAT is what our constitution works to PREVENT.
YOU and your ilk don't get to tell me I can't raise my children to believe ANYTHING I believe.
And it doesn't make me a hateful person nor does it make YOUR newly enacted limitation of MY freedom of speech acceptable.
Your other garbage is just that. And points out exactly what I'm arguing about.
It's not up to you to decide for ME and MINE what our opinons/beliefs are.
But when it becomes hate speech LAW....then I can't say I don't approve of gay relationships. No one can say anything that is against some communist law that takes away another AMerican's right to say whatever they want about whomever they want to say it about.
posted on April 12, 2007 10:29:03 PMYOU and your ilk don't get to tell me I can't raise my children to believe ANYTHING I believe.
I already said that I don't get to decide how any parent raises his child, Linda_K but I guess you went into such an immediate rage you failed to read it
And it doesn't make me a hateful person nor does it make YOUR newly enacted limitation of MY freedom of speech acceptable.
It was my opinion about educating children not to grow up to hate, Linda_K. I didn't enact any limitation of your freedom of speech by stating my view so I have no idea where you got that from.
Your other garbage is just that. And points out exactly what I'm arguing about.
If you believe that raising little children not to hate or disparage others is garbage, so be it.
posted on April 12, 2007 11:45:31 PM
Hurl all the insults at me you wish, Linda_K just because I didn't take a racist stance as you did and voiced an opinion you strongly disagree with.
Your opinion:
I believe that racism won't EVER die off, until the blacks quit asking for everything to be given to them....equally.
My opinion:
The only way this will ever change is to teach children from a young age what is acceptable in speech and how to treat others with respect but I don't see that happening anytime soon.
“Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace.” - Dalai Lama
posted on April 13, 2007 04:06:44 AMNo one can say anything that is against some communist law that takes away another AMerican's right to say whatever they want about whomever they want to say it about.
Just remember that phrase Linda when all the vulgar and vile stuff that you spew is thrown right back at you.
Now why dont you go on a corner with a sign that promotes the showering with other family members to save on energy costs since you are so much in favor of that.
But YOU ....believing that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality...would see that as HATE speech....and thus fight for/agree with a LAW being passed to LIMIT their FREE SPEECH.
YOU STILL DO NOT GET WHAT FREE SPEECH IS. No one is saying you can not have your opinions. There is a difference between speaking your mind with your opinions and using that speech to instigate violence directly towards others.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
---------------------------------- The duty of a patriot in this time and place is to ask questions, to demand answers, to understand where our nation is headed and why. If the answers you get do not suit you, or if they frighten you, or if they anger you, it is your duty as a patriot to dissent. Freedom does not begin with blind acceptance and with a flag. Freedom begins when you say 'No.'
posted on April 13, 2007 06:57:08 AM
linda_K
posted on April 12, 2007 09:49:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another bit of REALITY for you to come to realize.
I'll post whatever I want...when I want ...and about whomever I want to mention.
Are you a liberal? Must be....always telling others what they can and can't do.
I don't need another mommy....thanks anyway.""
No, you need a keeper and YOU feel free to tell other posters what to do like you did to Logansdad, you bossy neocon !
linduh, an idiot like you who doesn't know that Imus's comment was racist/sexist hate speech can hardly be taken seriously on your other comments especially on race issues.
It's too bad your children were raised by YOU and not by someone who "forced" them to reject hate and racism...
""Christians believe homosexual relationships are not approved of in the Bible.
Most secularists/atheists/etc. wouldn't want them teaching their children that gay sex is wrong. [according to their religion]""
No, ALL Christians do NOT believe homosexuality is wrong....
WHO ARE YOU TO SPEAK FOR ALL CHRISTIANS ???
No, all secularists and atheists do NOT approve of homosexuality.
WHO ARE YOU TO SPEAK FOR THEM????
Anyone has the right to believe homosexuality is wrong but they cannot stand on a street corner or get behind a microphone and scream that they should all be killed , beaten, and their rights taken away....no matter what the laws...it is not RIGHT to instigate others to hate and violence
...
It is NOT surprising that a low life like linduh can't see the difference...
posted on April 13, 2007 07:23:17 AMlinduh, that's the weakest, most stupid argument to defend your inherent racism I've ever seen
But yet it is 100% true mingopig. Until the black community quits their racism against their own people, no one will ever take them seriously.
Case and point. When I had my auto shop, we had many black Americans as customers. When they would talk about each other, they would use the "N" word very frequently (I am talking like 50 times in an hour conversation). Now I am not saying that I have never used the "N" word, but I can state that I have rarely ever used it and can likely state that most of us have used it at some time in their lives. The bigger point is the black community will need to stop using those types of words FIRST before they will ever see a change in society as a whole.
They cannot state that they are not racists and then make racist remarks against their own community.
.
.
.
If it's called common sense, why do so few Demomorons have it?
posted on April 13, 2007 07:42:23 AM
Listen to yourselves.....liberals with such RAGE.
lol
I posted I didn't support any speech that calls for VIOLENCE against ANY people/group.
You certainly prove, time and time again you CAN'T READ. Just as you have here, once again.
tsk tsk tsk
edited to add EXACTLY what I said for those who CAN comprehend the English language.
Linda_K posted on April 12, 2007 01:24:57 PM edit
I personally would like to see NO speech regulated/banned.
The ONLY exception I'd make to that is speech that calls for the abuse of another person/people. Period.
I have never read where our 'free speech' rights LIMIT us in what can be said.
Speaking is NOT physically hurtful to others.
Hurt feelings are something people need to grow up and live with, imo.
I truely believe by everyone demanding we not 'insult' them....we're headed down a REAL slippery slope into 'too much regulated speech'.
[ edited by linda_K on Apr 13, 2007 07:52 AM ]
posted on April 13, 2007 08:23:22 AM
Racism, Sexism, and Bigotry is obviously a serious problem... and it is a problem that everybody shares, no matter how much you think you're NOT a racist.
I have to agree with both sides of the political spectrum on this. The solution isn't just about "acceptable" comments. It is getting to the root of the problem. It is educating all Americans that we are all different. You're never going to change the color of a person's skin, or their culture, heritage, etc. The first step is to acknowledge that there are very clear differences. The second step is to learn to tolerate and accept each others differences. The third step is to learn not to jump off the deep end every time someone makes a stupid comment.
This country was founded on the melting pot theory... In theory we are supposed to accept other cultures into our own. In reality, it only goes so far.
Consider this... When someone like Don Imus, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Al Sharpton, or Jesse Jackson says something that is offensive... where does the problem really lie??? Is it with the person who makes the comment or with the person who hears the comment and takes offense to it? It is really both sides that have the problem.
To be quite honest, Imus made a joke. In my opinion a very poor joke, but a joke nonetheless. Yet, for some reason we held him to the fire and he lost his job. But take someone like Carlos Mencia, a comedian whose entire persona is based on racial comedy. His disclaimer is that everybody is a target. Both told a joke, I don't think either do it in a hateful manner. Is the difference that Imus is white and Carlos is hispanic? I don't necessarily think so. I think it may have more to do with what is expected of their individual roles and place in society than their actual race. I also think there is less sensitivity to someone who always discusses racism vs someone who generally doesn't.
I hardly ever agree with Linda or Stonecold, but the reality is that they are right to a certain point, and so is mingo, kiara, etc. Unfortunately, some points don't go far enough. Linda and Stone only address African Americans, but what about their own race? So far, all I've seen is them attack African American behaviors, but what about their own, and those of people they hold in great respect who cross the line?
My college education is in Race and Minority Relations. I am very liberal in my own beliefs, but I am also quite moderate when it comes to reality. My father is white, he met my mother who is Panamanian when he was stationed in the Canal while in the Marines. I'm a half breed, but I look white. I have found myself in some very strange situations when it comes to race. Looking white has put me in the middle of conversations that dropped my jaw to the floor. Recently, I heard a white guy refer to Martin Luther King Blvd as "Dead Ni&&er Blvd". Imagine that!!!
I am willing to accept the fact that politically, most Americans float in the middle. I hold a value that we as Americans should all be equal, have equal rights, no matter what our differences are. I have strong opinions for and against things like Affirmative Action. Affirmative Action is an unfortunate necessity, but it needs to change. I don't agree with quotas, but I agree with enforcement and accountability.
People need to be more sensitive and respectful towards others when they speak in public. On the other hand, those who hear need to be less sensitive and work towards educating others about their beefs rather than throw someone under the bus, especially considering there have been far worse examples of racist comments on the airwaves in recent months. Tolerance needs to come from all sides, not just one.
posted on April 13, 2007 09:30:58 AM
Excellent analysis, Rusty and I agree that there are good points made on both sides and there should be more tolerance from both sides..
Canada prides itself on its multi-culturism but racism festers in many small towns and big cities right across the country and I believe most are aware of it and it affects us all one way or another.
Slowly I see change with more sharing in the cultural festivities of all and more respect for all. The media should be credited for focusing on these events because they've played a big part in reporting on them and helping us to understand cultural differences. Some groups have been vocal lately about problems right within their own cultures such as violence to women and drug abuse. There are now more interracial friendships, dating and marriage too.
It just so happens that today there is a report in the news on the increase in interracial marriages in the US and here are some excerpts.
Interracial Marriages Surge Across U.S.
Friday April 13, 2007 12:46 AM
By DAVID CRARY
AP National Writer
NEW YORK (AP) - The charisma king of the 2008 presidential field. The world's best golfer. The captain of the New York Yankees. Besides superstardom, Barack Obama, Tiger Woods and Derek Jeter have another common bond: Each is the child of an interracial marriage.
For most of U.S. history, in most communities, such unions were taboo.
It was only 40 years ago - on June 12, 1967 - that the U.S. Supreme Court knocked down a Virginia statute barring whites from marrying nonwhites. The decision also overturned similar bans in 15 other states.
Since that landmark Loving v. Virginia ruling, the number of interracial marriages has soared; for example, black-white marriages increased from 65,000 in 1970 to 422,000 in 2005, according to Census Bureau figures. Factoring in all racial combinations, Stanford University sociologist Michael Rosenfeld calculates that more than 7 percent of America's 59 million married couples in 2005 were interracial, compared to less than 2 percent in 1970.
Coupled with a steady flow of immigrants from all parts of the world, the surge of interracial marriages and multiracial children is producing a 21st century America more diverse than ever, with the potential to become less stratified by race.
``The racial divide in the U.S. is a fundamental divide. ... but when you have the 'other' in your own family, it's hard to think of them as 'other' anymore,'' Rosenfeld said. ``We see a blurring of the old lines, and that has to be a good thing, because the lines were artificial in the first place.''
Opinion polls show overwhelming popular support, especially among younger people, for interracial marriage.
That's not to say acceptance has been universal. Interviews with interracial couples from around the country reveal varied challenges, and opposition has lingered in some quarters.
"Malignant racial biases can and do reside in interracial liaisons," Kennedy wrote. "But against the tragic backdrop of American history, the flowering of multiracial intimacy is a profoundly moving and encouraging development."
More here on those who are asked to identify themselves.
posted on April 13, 2007 09:42:44 AM
People simply need to understand what those words really mean. I don't think Imus and his producer gave any thought to what he actually said and why it was so offensive to so many. Sure, words are only words, but we also must understand that words are also very powerful. Words are used to suppress, influence, sensitize and desensitize, educate, create powerful social movements, etc. When you say words are just words, you're right, but you also have to recongnize just how powerful words can be.
posted on April 13, 2007 09:55:20 AM
Words are meant to be powerful....words from those who disagree also.
Actions too. Watching all those mexicans carrying their mexican flags while protesting says a lot to Americans who don't have any problem with different cultures who come here to 'meld'.
It's the ones that don't wish to 'meld' that present the biggest divisions.
It's the cultures/races that constantly work to divide, and those who support it that cause the divisions. Not those who raise their voices in disapproval.
==========
edited to add:
The Patriot Post
Founders' Quote Daily
"Citizens by birth or choice of a common country, that country has a right to concentrate your affections. The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations."
-- George Washington (Farewell Address, 19 September 1796)
Reference: George Washington: A Collection, W.B. Allen, ed. (515)
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[ edited by Linda_K on Apr 13, 2007 10:09 AM ]
Are YOU a Bunghole?