posted on October 2, 2008 06:19:25 PM new
Biden seems to be doing well, so fsr. Sure has done his homework. Palin has dodged and said she may not answer the question of why McCain supported the deregulation of banking. She's mentioned both soccer moms and hockey moms. Edited to add: OMG Neglus was right, it's a highlight in a bad Disney movie... when asked about mortgage renegotiation, Palin answered she wanted to talk about energy instead... Biden brilliant on Iraq war - Palin stuttering...Palin has definitely crammed for this debate, reading the Cliff Notes and not understanding the background. On at least 2 occassions has blamed Biden for voting on an issue in which John McCain voted the same way...
[ edited by pixiamom on Oct 2, 2008 07:55 PM ]
posted on October 2, 2008 06:51:59 PM new
Biden has many more years under his belt,but Palin is not doing too bad !
She is pretty!
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Gulag-a Soviet era concentration camp is now reincarnated as EBAY with 13,000 rules.
posted on October 2, 2008 07:00:53 PM new
Thats his specialty,he spent many years honing it.
Why do you think they chose him to be ObAMA running mate?
*
Gulag-a Soviet era concentration camp is now reincarnated as EBAY with 13,000 rules.
posted on October 2, 2008 08:04:50 PM new
Subjective observations viewed through the prism of your dislikes.
I once had a college professor who mentioned to me that Conservatives viewed life with blinders on. For some reason, I sense that the Democratic leaners who post here, have closed themselves off from reality and view this election with blinders on.
Gov. Palin did an exceptional job this evening. Whether she won or lost, or even goes onto the Vice Presidency, does not matter in this instance, because she handled the debate in good fashion.
She did not look like a fool. Respect her for doing a credible job.
posted on October 2, 2008 08:19:22 PM new
She did do a credible job, she was VERY well coached and would go off subject if she did not know the answer. She did much better than most of us (IMO) thought she would do. But I don't care if she looked pretty (talk about looking at this election with blinders on).
posted on October 2, 2008 08:20:44 PM newI once had a college professor who mentioned to me that Conservatives viewed life with blinders on. For some reason, I sense that the Democratic leaners who post here, have closed themselves off from reality and view this election with blinders on.
What blinders would those be? McCain just abandoned Michigan, a state he desperately needed. This will queer his chances in Pennsylvania, and Ohio is looking shakey. Virtually every poll in existence and ALL the electoral vote predictions are against him, and particularly Palin. You'd have to have blinders on to NOT see these facts.
Gov. Palin did an exceptional job this evening. Whether she won or lost, or even goes onto the Vice Presidency, does not matter in this instance, because she handled the debate in good fashion.
She did fine. She gave some answers that sounded like she'd done some homework, and others that handily skirted the original question.
She did not look like a fool. Respect her for doing a credible job.
She deserves respect for not looking like a fool. She did look like a fool all through the Couric interview, so this was her last chance. I'm sure not looking like a fool was all the McCain campaign was hoping for. I'm quite sure she didn't change any votes, and was successful in reassuring the base. Too bad the base isn't going to cut it this time around.
posted on October 2, 2008 08:24:33 PM new
Biden, by the way, was the definition of a gentleman. Noboby in the McCain camp will be able to pull out any cheapshots about sexism or condescension. Bottom line is, we still don't know if this woman can hold her own in open debate. I seriously doubt it.
posted on October 2, 2008 08:57:39 PM new
Palin was peppy, folksy and didn't make any major mistakes. She didn't answer the questions directly however and repeated the same phrases (ie "greed of wall street" a little too often to sound natural. ("Stepford Candidate" comes to mind). I didn't trust a thing she said.
It seemed to me that Biden was speaking from a wealth of experience and knowledge. He could have been lying through his teeth and I would have believed him. He did a good job and drove home the points he was making.
No matter who won or lost, I don't think this debate changed anyone's mind.
posted on October 2, 2008 09:53:43 PM new
It depresses me a bit that uneducated voters will see Palin's performance tonight and be bowled over. Memorized and glib, and she leaned heavily on those note cards in front of her, which she was shuffling all night.
Biden, it seemed to me, spoke from a big depth of experience. You can always tell when someone is talking about something about which he knows much more. Memorizers know just what they've memorized but can't defend their glib answers.
posted on October 3, 2008 05:22:17 AM new
IMHO, last night was the Sarah Palin Show. She disrespected both the debate hosts and the American people by avoiding answering the questions put to her. She danced around them like a trained monkey. I'm sorry, but those of you who think she did great weren't watching what I and a room full of people were. She was an insult to intelligent women everywhere. I'm disappointed that the moderator allowed her to ramble on. She babbled most of the night. The moderator should have stopped her and made her answer the questions put to her. It would be a disaster if SP ever became president.
BTW, the men in the room resented being called "Joe Six Pack". Guess it depends where you live, but I don't think we need a cutsey, folksie woman (or man) as VP, especially not one who thinks she should have even more power.
Cheryl
Whitman said she and McCain share a philosophy of scaling back the role of government. a point of view partly shaped by her EBay experience. "The EBay model is very Republican in its essence -- it's about making a small number of rules and getting out of the way while not overtaxing the community," she said.
posted on October 3, 2008 05:29:06 AM new
As I predicted Palin was trained well in the use of talking points and evasion. But even though she could not respond effectively to Biden's points or the questions she did remain standing and smiling. --- As someone just remarked, She didn't "look" like a fool! With our expectations so low, that accomplishment was remarkable.
posted on October 3, 2008 05:48:45 AM newiden seems to be doing well, so fsr. Sure has done his homework.
Only if you consider all the lies he told, 14 in all if you counted.
Joe Biden's 14 Lies
1. TAX VOTE: Biden said McCain voted “the exact same way” as Obama to increase taxes on Americans earning just $42,000, but McCain DID NOT VOTE THAT WAY.
2. AHMEDINIJAD MEETING: Joe Biden lied when he said that Barack Obama never said that he would sit down unconditionally with Mahmoud Ahmedinijad of Iran. Barack Obama did say specifically, and Joe Biden attacked him for it.
3. OFFSHORE OIL DRILLING: Biden said, “Drill we must.” But Biden has opposed offshore drilling and even compared offshore drilling to “raping” the Outer Continental Shelf.”
4. TROOP FUNDING: Joe Biden lied when he indicated that John McCain and Barack Obama voted the same way against funding the troops in the field. John McCain opposed a bill that included a timeline, that the President of the United States had already said he would veto regardless of it’s passage.
5. OPPOSING CLEAN COAL: Biden says he’s always been for clean coal, but he just told a voter that he is against clean coal and any new coal plants in America and has a record of voting against clean coal and coal in the U.S. Senate.
6. ALERNATIVE ENERGY VOTES: According to FactCheck.org, Biden is exaggerating and overstating John McCain’s record voting for alternative energy when he says he voted against it 23 times.
7. HEALTH INSURANCE: Biden falsely said McCain will raise taxes on people's health insurance coverage -- they get a tax credit to offset any tax hike. Independent fact checkers have confirmed this attack is false
8. OIL TAXES: Biden falsely said Palin supported a windfall profits tax in Alaska -- she reformed the state tax and revenue system, it's not a windfall profits tax.
9. AFGHANISTAN / GEN. MCKIERNAN COMMENTS: Biden said that top military commander in Iraq said the principles of the surge could not be applied to Afghanistan, but the commander of NATO's International Security Assistance Force Gen. David D. McKiernan said that there were principles of the surge strategy, including working with tribes, that could be applied in Afghanistan.
10. REGULATION: Biden falsely said McCain weakened regulation -- he actually called for more regulation on Fannie and Freddie.
11. IRAQ: When Joe Biden lied when he said that John McCain was “dead wrong on Iraq”, because Joe Biden shared the same vote to authorize the war and differed on the surge strategy where they John McCain has been proven right.
12. TAX INCREASES: Biden said Americans earning less than $250,000 wouldn’t see higher taxes, but the Obama-Biden tax plan would raise taxes on individuals making $200,000 or more.
13. BAILOUT: Biden said the economic rescue legislation matches the four principles that Obama laid out, but in reality it doesn’t meet two of the four principles that Obama outlined on Sept. 19, which were that it include an emergency economic stimulus package, and that it be part of “part of a globally coordinated effort with our partners in the G-20.”
14. REAGAN TAX RATES: Biden is wrong in saying that under Obama, Americans won't pay any more in taxes then they did under Reagan.
It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived.George S. Patton
posted on October 3, 2008 06:06:24 AM new12. TAX INCREASES: Biden said Americans earning less than $250,000 wouldn’t see higher taxes, but the Obama-Biden tax plan would raise taxes on individuals making $200,000 or more.
OUCH, that hurts middle America. McCain does not care about middle-class people. He does not have a clue. He is married to a very rich heiress, doesn't know how many homes he owns (because it proves he is out-of-touch) and owns 13 cars. Obama's tax plan does not hurt the middle-class at all. That is a fact.
posted on October 3, 2008 06:34:48 AM new
The reason why I mentioned she is pretty is because after the last debate between McCain and Obama,one journalist remarked 'may the taller and the better looking candidate win'.
Nothing shallow when it comes to marketing,just keep your eyes focused on the bottom line!
I also see Biden likes her too!
Biden is a seasoned pro,how many times has he tried running for president?I recall at least 2 may be 3?
Does anyone remember?
*
Gulag-a Soviet era concentration camp is now reincarnated as EBAY with 13,000 rules.
posted on October 3, 2008 06:45:47 AM new
I had a friend who worked for the IRS for many years and then moved into private practice.
(He is a democrat)
He said to me once,in this country,it is the middle class who bears the burden,the U.S. tax codes are written in such a way the upper and lower class get the break but not the middle class!
Someone has to pay for the roads and bridges,the education,the school lunch,etc etc and it is the middle class.
This is true not just in this country,but in any industrial country such as Japan,Germany,UK.
Does 250,000 a year qualify a person as 'rich'?
not in New york city or San Francisco or Seattle!
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Gulag-a Soviet era concentration camp is now reincarnated as EBAY with 13,000 rules.
[ edited by hwahwa on Oct 3, 2008 06:46 AM ]
posted on October 3, 2008 06:48:56 AM new
Helen - I agree with you on Biden. He was a real gentleman. I think that most men would have lost it and let her have it with both guns drawn. He was calm, cool and collected and yet amused enough by her to smile broadly (while a whole room of people where I was at were laughing hysterically at her).
I do have to admit that she's a well trained republican. She could very well have been trained by Bush himself. They're all good at evading questions.
Cheryl
Whitman said she and McCain share a philosophy of scaling back the role of government. a point of view partly shaped by her EBay experience. "The EBay model is very Republican in its essence -- it's about making a small number of rules and getting out of the way while not overtaxing the community," she said.
posted on October 3, 2008 06:49:03 AM new
Defense Disagreements
Biden and Palin got into a tussle about military recommendations in Afghanistan:
Biden: The fact is that our commanding general in Afghanistan said today that a surge – the surge principles used in Iraq will not – well, let me say this again now – our commanding general in Afghanistan said the surge principle in Iraq will not work in Afghanistan, not Joe Biden, our commanding general in Afghanistan. He said we need more troops. We need government-building. We need to spend more money on the infrastructure in Afghanistan.
Palin: Well, first, McClellan did not say definitively the surge principles would not work in Afghanistan. Certainly, accounting for different conditions in that different country and conditions are certainly different. We have NATO allies helping us for one, and even the geographic differences are huge but the counterinsurgency principles could work in Afghanistan. McClellan didn't say anything opposite of that. The counterinsurgency strategy going into Afghanistan, clearing, holding, rebuilding, the civil society and the infrastructure can work in Afghanistan.
bothPoint Biden. To start, Palin got newly appointed Gen. David D. McKiernan's name wrong when she called him McClellan. And, more important, Gen. McKiernan clearly did say that surge principles would not work in Afghanistan. As the Washington Post reported:
Washington Post: "The word I don't use for Afghanistan is 'surge,' " McKiernan stressed, saying that what is required is a "sustained commitment" to a counterinsurgency effort that could last many years and would ultimately require a political, not military, solution.
posted on October 3, 2008 06:58:15 AM new
Bear - I know you are a die hard republican, but let me ask you this: Can you HONESTLY see this woman as president? The leader of the free world? The one that has to pull this country out of the disastrous financial mess it's in? The one who will have to make decisions on Iran, Iraq, Pakistan? As a relatively smart American can you honestly see that? If so, pass your glasses over here. I'd like to look out of them.
I think this election, will do more to unite Americans across all party lines more than any other in our history. Americans are fed up. They're tired of being lied to and cheated on. The bailout bill is a fine example. It's so full of pork it could feed the American people for a week. When the media finds out who put pork into the bill (and they will) and I find out that any democrat in my district contributed to that pork, they will not get my vote in November. Even if I were a republican, there is just no way I could ever vote for McCain. Not based on his policies because he's a good little republican true to his party, but, it will be because of his decision to choose a running mate based solely on her gender and one that can in no way lead this country should she have to. He insulted every woman in this country with his choice.
JMHO.
Cheryl
Whitman said she and McCain share a philosophy of scaling back the role of government. a point of view partly shaped by her EBay experience. "The EBay model is very Republican in its essence -- it's about making a small number of rules and getting out of the way while not overtaxing the community," she said.
posted on October 3, 2008 08:25:12 AM new
Great post, Cheryl. Sarah Palin was deemed to have a good (or excellent-depending on who's talking) performance at the debate because she did not make any major errors, spoke in mostly complete sentences (I actually read that in one of the New York papers)and winked at the camera, dontcha know! She avoided answerng most questions, ran on and on with very few facts and seemed very hyper. If these are the criteria for a good/great debate, we sure have lowered the bar.
Biden did not do any winking or grandstanding or changing of rules. He spoke with great knowledge of the facts (despite what Bear thinks)and was a gentleman. He also comes from working class roots and Palin probably has a larger net worth than he does.
Why everyone in this country is not scared out of their wits by the thought that Palin could be president (or even VP) is beyond me.
"Can you HONESTLY see this woman as president?" That's the question I've asked a few of my Republican friends. They never answer, really, but they do blush a little.
I think that they're secretly glad that McCain is likely to lose. I don't get a sense that their hearts are really in it, at least those friends of mine who are Republicans as a proxy for being Libertarian.
posted on October 3, 2008 10:17:43 AM new
Coach, Why everyone in this country is not scared out of their wits by the thought that Palin could be president (or even VP) is beyond me.
You betcha, I am!
A poll is not a prediction. It is a snapshot of how people are thinking right now.
posted on October 3, 2008 10:40:19 AM newOnly if you consider all the lies he told, 14 in all if you counted.
Joe Biden's 14 Lies
I guess you believe the hockey mom only told the truth in last night's debate.
PALIN: Said of Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama: "94 times he voted to increase taxes or not support a tax reduction."
THE FACTS: The dubious count includes repetitive votes as well as votes to cut taxes for the middle class while raising them on the rich. An analysis by factcheck.org found that 23 of the votes were for measures that would have produced no tax increase at all, seven were in favor of measures that would have lowered taxes for many, 11 would have increased taxes on only those making more than $1 million a year.
PALIN: Criticized Obama's "plan to mandate health care coverage and have universal government run program" for health care, and added: "I don't think it's going to be real pleasing for Americans to consider health care being taken over by the Feds."
THE FACTS: Wrong on several counts. Obama's plan does not provide for universal coverage, only mandates insurance for children and doesn't turn the system over to the government. Most people would still get private insurance through their work. Obama proposes that the government subsidize the cost of health coverage for millions who have trouble affording it and he'd set up an exchange to negotiate prices and benefits with private insurers - with one option being a government-run plan.
PALIN: "Two years ago, remember, it was John McCain who pushed so hard with the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac reform measures. He sounded that warning bell."
THE FACTS: Republican Sen. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska led an effort in 2005 to tighten regulation on the mortgage underwriters - McCain joined as a co-sponsor a year later. The legislation was never taken up by the full Senate, then under Republican control. BIDEN: Said McCain supports tax breaks for oil companies, and "wants to give them another $4 billion tax cut."
PALIN: Said the United States has reduced its troop level in Iraq to a number below where it was when the troop increase began in early 2007.
THE FACTS: Not correct. The Pentagon says there are currently 152,000 U.S. troops in Iraq, about 17,000 more than there were before the 2007 military buildup began.
PALIN: Said Alaska is "building a nearly $40 billion natural gas pipeline, which is North America's largest and most expensive infrastructure project ever to flow those sources of energy into hungry markets."
THE FACTS: Not quite. Construction is at least six years away. So far the state has only awarded a license to Trans Canada Corp., that comes with $500 million in seed money in exchange for commitments toward a lengthy and costly process to getting a federal certificate. At an August news conference after the state Legislature approved the license, Palin said, "It's not a done deal."
PALIN: Said a McCain-Palin administration "will support Israel," including "building our embassy ... in Jerusalem."
THE FACTS: Moving the U.S. Embassy from its present location in Tel Aviv to Jerusalem is a perennial promise of presidential candidates courting the Jewish-American vote. In fact, moving the embassy is actually required by U.S. law. But successive administrations of both parties, including George W. Bush's, have made the same pledge only to find that the realities of Middle East peacemaking have forced them to invoke a waiver to delay it. Jerusalem is claimed as a capital by both Israel and the Palestinians and Israel's occupation of east Jerusalem is not internationally recognized. The city's status is one of the key issues of disagreement in peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians.
posted on October 3, 2008 10:45:54 AM new
Here are more lies from the hockey mom:
Sarah Palin just asserted that Sen. Joseph Biden backed John McCain's military policies until this presidential race. That is flatly false. Biden was an outspoken opponent of President Bush's troop increases in Iraq as soon as Bush announced them after the 2006 elections. As Foreign Relations Committee Chairman, he led the most heated hearings before the troops were actually deployed.
Palin repeated a standard line offered by the McCain campaign--that Obama has not admitted the "surge" of additional troops in Iraq worked.
But in a September interview with Bill O'Reilly of Fox News, Obama said "the surge has succeeded in ways that nobody anticipated. . . I've already said it's succeeded beyond our wildest dreams."
Obama has not, however, retracted his opposition to the surge, and he has said political reconciliation still needs to take place in Iraq.
Gov. Palin suggested that the nearly $700 billion the U.S. spends a year on imported oil could be replaced by domestic sources. CNNMoney.com took estimates from various government agencies to conclude that crude oil production could be increased at most between 1 and 3 million barrels per day, on top of the 5 million barrels a day already produced domestically. The United States currently consumes about 20 million barrels a day, so an expansion of domestic drilling would make barely a dent in that amount unless consumption also is reduced.
Sarah Palin repeated John McCain's claim that Barack Obama voted to increase taxes for every American earning more than $42,000 a year. This is a considerable stretch. Obama voted for a non-binding budget resolution that laid down general budgetary guidelines based on the assumption that the Bush tax cuts will expire, as scheduled, in 2011. The budget resolution did not represent a vote to raise taxes. Obama has said that he is in favor of continuing the Bush tax cuts for all but the wealthiest Americans
posted on October 3, 2008 11:03:41 AM new
Good job, Dad. Too bad Bear has done one of his hit and run posts. He will never acknowledge your facts. You know, in one ear and out the other....
a little too often to sound natural. ("Stepford Candidate" comes to mind). I didn't trust a thing she said.