posted on November 10, 2000 04:15:06 PM new
AW friends: This is an e-mail a friend has sent us. It's an eye-opener!
Hello again,
>>
>> Thought you'd like another update from the inside. I spent much of Wed.
>as
>> the Palm Beach County Dem. Party observer in the recount room at the Palm
>> Beach County Supervisor of Elections. Also present were lawyers and a
>> staffer representing GWB, several lawyers representing Gore,
>representatives
>> of the Reform Party, the Fla. Democratic and Republican Parties, the DNCC,
>> US Rep. Clay Shaw and his Dem. challenger Elaine Bloom (this race is still
>> contested), a Dem. State Senator and a Dem. State Representative from the
>> County.
>>
>> The recount was supposed to begin at 1:30, was delayed until 4:00 and
>> ended at 11:30. Our role basically consisted of sitting in a cramped room
>> watching five staffers run stacks of puch card ballots through counting
>> machines. Pretty dull all in all until it was discovered that one precinct
>> had not been counted in full. This resulted in a net gain for Al of about
>> 360 votes.
>>
>> The Bush boys lost their smug attitudes and began huddling and whispering
>> every few minutes.
>>
>> The absentees came through for Al too. When one votes at the polls in
>> Florida, they provide a punch instrument which, if used correctly,
>> completely perforates the ballot. However, absentee voters often use a
>pen
>> or other implement which does not fully perforate the card. This was
>> apparent to us from the fact that over 10,000 voters in the County, about
>> 2.2% of the overall turnout did not make any choice in the Presidential
>> race, but did vote in the US Senate or Congressional races. We theorized
>> that many voters had partially perforated the card, but the machines
>weren't
>> reading them. The more times the ballots are run through the counting
>> machine, the more likely the loosened chits fall off.
>>
>> When the absentees were counted, 221 ballots that had previously
>> registered no vote now did show a vote in the Presidential race. These
>> went overwhelmingly for Gore, leading to some whooping and high fiving
>from
>> our side. The Bushies really lost it at this point and got a little
>hostile
>> with the staffers, which in turn elicited some harsh responses from the
>> assembled masses.
>>
>> Gore's net gain in the County was 643. Word from other counties is that
>> Gore closed the 1,700 deficit by over 1,200. Only half of the counties
>> conducted their recounts on Wednesday. The rest are on Thursday.
>>
>> The bigger problem is that the ballot in Palm Beach County, which differs
>in
>> its layout from the ballots elsewhere in the State, is illegal for several
>> reasons. Florida statutes specifically mandate the precise layout of the
>> ballot and the order of candidates. The law was not followed. Bush's
>name
>> was first, with Buchanan below him and Gore third. This is completely
>> improper, as well as the fact that the law requires the names to be placed
>> to the left with the punch holes to the right of the candidates' names.
>On
>> this ballot, some names were on the right and some on the left, with all
>of
>> the punch holes in the middle. It was difficult to line up the name with
>> the correct hole.
>>
>> Moreover, 19,000 ballots were disqualified because they voted for two or
>> more candidates. This is a direct result of the confusing layout of the
>> names on the ballot. This represents over 4% of the total ballots. It
>was
>> as high as 15% in some predominantly African-American precincts and about
>> 10% in some precincts with large numbers of Jewish retirees. The Gore
>vote
>> in many of these precincts was over 90%.
>>
>> This explains the networks' exit polling which reflected voters' belief
>that
>> they had voted for Gore, but in fact their ballots had been disqualified.
>> This led to the initial awarding of Florida to Gore.
>>
>> Folks, the bottom line is that if the names on the ballot were properly
>> situated Gore would have had an additional 11-13,000 vote margin in this
>> County, and the election would be over. We have done a precinct by
>precinct
>> analysis of where the disqualified votes came from. By attributing the
>same
>> percentage of the vote Gore obtained in those precincts to the
>disqualified
>> ballots, Gore would be winning Florida by at least 10,000 votes. In other
>> words, Gore has actually won the election both in the popular vote and in
>> the electoral vote, but he may well still lose it.
>>
>> You should also be aware that other large counties in the State
>> disqualified about one half of one percent of their ballots for casting
>two
>> or more votes in the Presidential race. In Palm Beach County it was 4.4%.
>>
>> Lastly, don't expect the recount to be over on Thursday, as the media is
>> stating. Legal actions are underway. The next question, will a judge
>order
>> a re-vote just in Palm Beach County with a new ballot?
>>
>> Steven Meyer '86
>>
[ edited by roadsmith on Nov 10, 2000 04:16 PM ]
posted on November 10, 2000 04:40:57 PM new
Is this for real? I would like some further proof. It seems this tally would have been -flooded- through the media by now. Is it?
posted on November 10, 2000 05:17:44 PM new
curlyg510:
"Is this for real? I would like some further proof. It seems this tally would have been -flooded- through the media by now. Is it?"
After the misinformation we got on election night would you trust them if they told you it was? I'm going to sit tight and wait for the smoke to clear myself.
and then below you can look at the states--you need to click to Florida---and then you can see then when you get to Florida under precints click 'COUNTY' and then you have to click to get to the list that has Palm Beach county.
It shows the Nov 7th count and then also the recount for each county and how much each candidate gained or lost.
Gore gained 731 in Palm Beach--Bush gained 108 in Palm Beach for a net gain of 643 for Gore (in this county)
posted on November 10, 2000 06:00:20 PM new
Not real. A friend of a friend...... recognize that pattern?
Factually inacurate in several areas as well- including the layout of the ballot. The ballot has been certified by the Florida Sec State as being fully in compliance with requirements.
The claim in this errant email is that "Bush's name was first, with Buchanan below him..."
Not quite. Gore was directly below Bush. You judge for youself just how difficult this is to figure out:
posted on November 10, 2000 06:02:10 PM new
Florida election officials on Friday defended the ballot, saying it met the requirements of state law.
``The Department of State has reviewed the Palm Beach County ballot and has found the order of the ballot complies with the law, and the design and the layout of the ballot does conform to the laws of the state of Florida,'' said Clay Roberts, the director of the state division of elections.
posted on November 10, 2000 06:06:56 PM new
Even if Bush wins by a single vote when all is said and done, he's prez. Florida case law prevents the confused ballot excuse (1974), Federal law prevents another election from being held and the Supreme Court had a ruling in 1997 that makes the Demo posturing an exercise in futility.
posted on November 10, 2000 06:59:57 PM newThe law was not followed. Bush's name was first, with Buchanan below him and Gore third
Is this supposed to mean that there's something fishy about Bush's name appearing first?
From Florida Statutes, 101.151(3)(a):
"...[T]he ballot shall have headings under which shall appear the names of the offices and names of duly nominated candidates for the respective offices in the following order: the heading "Electors for President and Vice President" and thereunder the names of the candidates for President and Vice President of the United States nominated by the political party which received the highest vote for Governor in the last general election of the Governor in this state, above which shall appear the name of said party. Then shall appear the names of other candidates for President and Vice President of the United States who have been properly nominated. "
The present Governor of Florida is a Republican, so his party's Presidential candidate was listed first as a matter of law.
Although the same section provides this instruction for preparing PAPER ballots:
"3)(a) Beneath the caption and preceding the names of candidates shall be the following words: "To vote for a candidate whose name is printed on the ballot, place a cross (X) mark in the blank space at the right of the name of the candidate for whom you desire to vote...."
a subsequent section of the statute provides the following details regarding computerized ballots:
101.36 Voting machines or electronic or electromechanical voting; when used. In counties that have adopted voting machines or electronic or electromechanical voting, the machines or voting devices shall be so arranged as to require individual voting for all offices. The order in which the ballot is arranged shall as nearly as practicable conform to the requirements of the form of the paper ballot.
Note the qualifier "as nearly as practicable". It doesn't say "identical" to paper ballots. In order to accommodate the larger type for the visually impaired, a modification to the "butterfly" format was made, reviewed and approved by both parties well prior to the election.
[ edited by HartCottageQuilts on Nov 10, 2000 07:03 PM ]
posted on November 10, 2000 07:28:47 PM new
Hopw anyone could possibly think that ballot is confusing is beyoun belief...Don't take a genius to see that you punch the spot across from the arrow..The arrow points directly to the spot to punch...
If that were a "Bingo" card, the ol' folks would get it right...!!!
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posted on November 10, 2000 07:31:46 PM new
Well, Duhh! What the heck WOULD anyone expect the Republican Florida Secretary of State and Republican Florida Supervisor of Election to say. Frankly, both of their comments on this matter have been distinctly partisan, and I wouldn't believe a word they say. It's spin time folks, on both sides here. And the Republican political machinery in Florida is spinning so fast, I'll bet they're dizzy.
posted on November 10, 2000 07:36:33 PM new
Personally, I'm finding it increasingly offensive that certain posters find the need to stereotype Palm Beach voters as senile, blind, or dumb senior citizens. Not that it matters, but a very large portion of those voters complaining are under the age of 60. If y'all want to belittle the voters of Palm Beach County, fair enough, but let's stop with the senior bashing, okay? Just because one is over 60 (or 50, by AARP requirements) does not mean that one is stupid, mentally impaired, inept, or blind. You know we all will be there soon enough, and some of us already are.
posted on November 11, 2000 04:08:31 AM new
I voted on a ballot like the one shown and yes it looks clear as pictured. The problem is when you slide it into the slot in the voting booth the arrows don't show up like that. There is another page that you flip and only the holes show on the actual ballot. I know I was trying to vote for Gore but I may not have. If I punched the hole directly under Bush I and I may have, I voted for Pat. I'm not stupid or blind, honest, it was confusing.
posted on November 11, 2000 05:19:00 AM newKadyD - "Well, Duhh! What the heck WOULD anyone expect the Republican Florida Secretary of State and Republican Florida Supervisor of Election to say. Frankly, both of their comments on this matter have been distinctly partisan, and I wouldn't believe a word they say."
I agree with you. I was watching one of the news shows last night (the one with Dan Rather). One of (CBS?) newsmen in Florida was talking and mentioned that the Florida Secretary of State said that these were legal votes. Then he paused and then said 'But of course <another pause> she's a Republican'. I just burst out laughing and spit coffee all over the sofa. The *way* he said it was just priceless.
posted on November 11, 2000 05:40:27 AM new
tegan:
After the misinformation we got on election night would you trust them if they told you it was? I'm going to sit tight and
wait for the smoke to clear myself.<<<
No, that is why I wanted further proof. I DON'T believe it and I am for Gore. The media were wrong on both sides Election night. They may be wrong now.( with the unofficial AP score of Bush ahead in FLA)
When will the media be telling the real truth to suit one and all?
I too shall wait till the smoke clears. There will still be non-believers on both sides. If the GOP wants a recount of any other state, I am FOR it. What's good for the Goose is good for the Gander.
"George W. Bush (news - web sites) has given his adviser James A. Baker III authority to seek an injunction to stop manual vote recounts in Florida. Campaign officials said Baker had not made a final decision but they expected him to take the legal action Saturday."
posted on November 11, 2000 05:56:18 AM new
I am in NY and we have lever style voting booths. I have always pulled down the second lever. Had I been rushed(I was not) I MAY have clicked the second one without really looking knowing this has always been my party. If I noticed another candidate in the second slot, I would have been confused and cannot really say what I would have done. These Democrat supporting seniors, who have been voting as long as they were allowed, have always voted the SECOND button, lever, hole, punch.
I also agree that the senior bashing has got to stop. I have always had the ut-most respect for them. If someone called my grandparents stupid, I would be outraged. You would be too.
posted on November 11, 2000 06:23:25 AM new
KattyD, you go, girl!
One of the things that must be remembered, and I think December's post helps confirms the point, is that by no means all the folks who believe or KNOW that they ended up voting for the wrong person aren't anywhere near senior. They're all across the board age-wise.
posted on November 11, 2000 07:05:42 AM new
I've seen this paper ballot being waved around all over TV. Seems the problem in Palm Beach County was that when voters inserted their ballot into the template to vote, it didn't line up properly.
You mean there are people who want us to believe this piece of paper isn't a paper ballot?
posted on November 11, 2000 08:22:28 AM new
Hey joyz412e, but that ballot is legal! It's got the hole to the right of the candidates names, and there are big ole arrows pointing to the appropriate holes for the candidate selected.
posted on November 11, 2000 09:10:03 AM new
Folks, Voting is a very serious thing and
if one makes a mistake you should correct it at the poling place at the time you are voting.
I made it perfectly clear to my children when they were young that when you vote you take the time to check over your selections
before you turn it in or pull the lever because once you leave the polling place
you have had your one vote.
Voting for the person of your choice is something that is the coner stone of Democery and Freedom. The process of selection a president was set up by the founding farthers and gives all an equal voice. The constitution would have to be changed to change the method we use to elect a president and it would take 2/3 of the states to vote for it (ratify) for it, the method used to vote for a president to
change.
posted on November 11, 2000 09:34:50 AM new
<<The process of selection a president was set up by the founding farthers and gives all an equal voice>>
Which is one person one vote. Which Bush mothpiece Baker has said.
Going by the equal vote mothod, Gore is President. Electoral college votes aren't cast until mid-December and its not fair to predict whether the electoral college will plunge America into a civil war...as it is this early prediction of votes that has us in this mess now.
posted on November 11, 2000 12:45:45 PM new
Drawing a comparison between The Civil War and the events occuring now. (Did no one notice the coincidence that the Mason-Dixon line seems to figure prominently in the maps of proposed electoral college votes? That African Americans feel they have been deprived of their vote?) I am terribly afraid that if the electoral college DOES reflect the will of the people who (so far) have elected Gore, these militias will rise up in support of Bush. (and yes, Gore supporters do own guns, too, just like some Bush supporters abhor guns, so it would be a mess...dividing brother against brother, etc.) My own state of PA is blue Gore, and there are so many gun owners it shocked the Secret Service when they "checked out" the homes surrounding the cemetary when Mr. Rodham was buried.
I think the media is fueling the frenzy by providing these electoral college votes as if they were written in stone. There may be people there who want to see Gore get what he earned. Electoral votes have gone against tradition in the past and may in the near future.
posted on November 11, 2000 05:15:53 PM new
It's American, one vote each. Just wondering
why if this ballot is prone to have errors on
the first two selection names, why does it not have errors occurring in remaining and following names as viewed in pairs like they
are trying to make you believe about the first two lines ???? America wakeup. It was
who ? who complained first?
posted on November 11, 2000 05:34:53 PM new
missyww13 wrote:
[i] I am terribly afraid that if the electoral college DOES reflect the will of the people who (so far) have elected Gore, these militias will rise up in support of Bush. (and yes, Gore supporters do own guns, too, just like some Bush supporters abhor guns, so it would be a mess...dividing brother against brother, etc.) (snip)
I think the media is fueling the frenzy by providing these electoral college votes as if they were written in stone. There may be people there who want to see Gore get what he earned. Electoral votes have gone against tradition in the past and may in the near future.[/i]
Missy, honey, unsubscribe from those rightwing militia lists you're on. They're scaring you unnecessarily.
There's nothing of the sort you're describing even REMOTELY about to happen. According to the Polls taken, the American people are remarkably sanguine about this. They show the majority of people don't think this is a crisis and that Gore shouldn't (at this point) drop his own interests just because Bush wants him too. I'm pretty strongly in favor of MY guy, but I sure won't be supporting any civil war over the issue.
As for the electoral college comment, there have been only 9 electors in the entire history of the country that didn't vote as they were *instructed* to vote (none of these renegades made any difference in the final result, as I understand it), and something like 36 states require their electors to vote according to the popular vote in that state BY LAW.
Relax. Our government and our country are neither going to dissolve and blow away -- nor blow up in our faces. Everything is proceding in an orderly manner, and will. A little patience, and a LOT more faith in our Constitution will serve you well.
