posted on November 30, 2000 10:25:43 AM
Joseph Lieberman just gave a statement regarding the dangerous precedent and threat to our democratic system should the Republican dominated Legislature carry out their threat to appoint their OWN slate of electors, and in the process, completely disregarding and throwing out the entire Florida vote. I posted to this topic yesterday http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=28&thread=40544. Actually, it almost seemed to me that Mr. Lieberman might actually have even read my comments, as his statement was almost word for word what I had written. Yeah right! But seriously, this is a very scary matter, and of momentous importance to our election process. Taking out the partisanship, and understanding that republicans here are eager for their candidate to win, everyone MUST understand that such an action by the Florida legislature will set a precedent in FUTURE elections, where the shoe could be on the other foot, and democrats might do the same thing. For EITHER party to so arrogantly disregard and in effect, null and void the public vote to achieve their partisan goals is both arrogant and dangerous to the democratic principles of our elections system. It truly scares me if this comes to pass and there will be severe repercussions down the road. Remember, that in our system WE vote a slate of electors, and for a legislative body to take that vote away and appoint THEIR preferred electors is a step toward overturning the democratic process.
posted on November 30, 2000 11:55:19 AM
Absurd. Honestly, have you noticed how quick Al Gore was to step outside the constitutional process and whine for the supreme court to save his bacon? And they fell for it....lock stock and barrel.
I say if you have a recount, RECOUNT all the damn votes Florida! This selective recounting smells like last week's trash.
For that matter recount the whole damn nation, then we will know who really has the popular vote.
Methinks thou dost protest too much. Move to Canada, they have a wonderful socialist country, free healthcare, pensions, etc. just don't try and be a working class Canadian, because they pay TOP dollar for the priveledge.
posted on November 30, 2000 11:58:21 AM
BTW~ if you think I am getting testy, I am. If I have to look at Al Gore's pointy little nose in that fat face one more time the men in white coats are going to cart me away! Can you spell SMARMY? His Momma should have slapped that look off his face a long time ago!
posted on November 30, 2000 12:08:23 PM
Dejavu, That felt good didn't it? Venting in these kind of situations is healthy. That really is all anyone here is doing.
posted on November 30, 2000 12:11:46 PM
Dejavu,
Florida law restricts the number of requests that a candidate can make for recount to three counties. Neither GW nor Al Gore can just decide to revote or recount all of the votes in the state.
Oh, it was GW who went whining to the Supreme court, BTW.
[ edited by krs on Nov 30, 2000 12:13 PM ]
posted on November 30, 2000 12:14:13 PM
All I can speak for is what the radio stations and the people from the state of Fl are saying today I was out and about. They are outraged
Not just Democrats but Republicans too. My vote is going to end up flushed in the toilet. Next time Jeb Bush tells me to get out and vote I am going to say what for???
I have never seen such underhanded politics---
Zelda
posted on November 30, 2000 12:16:31 PM"Florida law restricts the number of requests that a candidate can make for recount to three counties. Neither GW nor Al Gore can just decide to revote or recount all of the votes in the state."
So the offer Gore made to Bush to recount all the Florida ballots by hand was just a PR move?
posted on November 30, 2000 12:18:47 PM
Rawbunzel~ yep even us stodgy, old fart republicans need to vent. Republicans come in all shapes and demographics.
So the next time you see a female, forty something, brunette with eyebrows similar to K. Harris's you might just wonder: Is that dejavu?
posted on November 30, 2000 12:23:31 PM
Zelda~ great to see you! On January 2nd I will become a Florida resident, and I couldn't agree with you more. And I intend to vote.
Count all the votes.
Krs~ I don't know who filed first but I am sick of the whining, all of it. The different branches of government were meant to be seperate. This election is blurring the boundaries and making skeptics of us all.
posted on November 30, 2000 01:22:04 PM*sigh!* Counting, or recounting has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. We all have a preference of who we'd like to see as President, but putting our partisanship aside for the moment, can none of you see where this move by the Florida legislature is likely to lead? I would feel the same way if it was the other way around, and the Democrats were trying to do this. In fact, I would probably be so outraged as to change my registered party affiliation. I am simply trying to point out, that REGARDLESS OF POLITICAL PREFERENCE, this type of legislative action by the Florida Legislature illegitimizes our democratic voting process. Can't any of you look beyond the party rhetoric and really SEE what is being put into play here? This is NOT about Democrats vs. Republicans, or Bush vs. Gore. This is about having YOUR right to vote, and have it count, taken away from you. YOUR vote, whether it was for Bush or Gore is going to be VOIDED by this action. If you understand this, it should scare the bejesus out of Democrats AND Republicans alike.
posted on November 30, 2000 01:48:47 PM
Hi dejavu KatyD That's exactly how I feel but tell us how they are going to set their bipartisanships aside to settle this dispute? Like I said the people of the state are outraged .This is all I am hearing here in S. Fla. It is all so unprecedented it makes me so mad that I am thinking of working for my party now to try and see to it that this never happens again....I think the dirty linen in this state has yet to be aired, and it will probably come out many months later. Gore is running out of time-----Too many legal challenges it is endless. Look it took the OJ trial almost a year to declare him Not Guilty when in fact we all know he was guilty.....So how can they decide this in almost 2 weeks? Even the supreme court has their own bipartisanships too.... So tomorrows battle will not be a free ride for Gore----
I agree with Joe Lieberman they are setting a "Dangerous Precedent" But how do they bring this to a conclusion? BTW as of today the poles are changing again---...People are outraged, and 50% now think Gore should keep on fighting---- It is a difficult situation-----
The cases in Martin County and Seminole county may be the sleeper in this whole situation------We have to watch and see----
Zzzzzzz
Yes, I agree, that this election needs to be resolved, one way or the other. BUT, for the Florida Legislature to completely throw out ALL the votes that were cast in Florida for EITHER candidate is NOT the way to do it. It reminds me of a bloodless coup d'etat. And I'm glad that the Florida citizens are beginning to speak up about it. I've seen some things on the news about it, but frankly I don't understand why the media didn't jump right on it when it became clear through Tom Feeney's announcement last week, that this was what they were going to do. Maybe nobody really "believed" him, but I did. Despite the fallout, it appears that many of these Florida republicans, including Jeb, are willing to commit political suicide "for the good" of their party. What CAN they be thinking?
posted on November 30, 2000 02:13:58 PM
Yes, femme, exactly. This is not about party loyalties, it's about taking away the right to vote and have it count, REGARDLESS of party loyalties.
posted on November 30, 2000 02:15:43 PM
When a legislature thinks they can throw out legitimate votes and basically choose the person to head the executive branch, then the constitutional separation of powers has been breached. Off to read your thread KatyD.
posted on November 30, 2000 02:53:09 PMKatyDthe legislature in Fla. is strictly partisan This is why we can never get gambling here in S. Fla. We are a divided state-----This session is an insurance policy for the republicans to make sure they can put their man in-----The thirst for power in this nation has set aside the will of the people.....This is something the legislature has overlooked the will of the people They are so wrapped up with their highly paid lawyers telling they can go forth and do this they forget that the people will speak----- Their will be a price to pay,wait until the next election. The legislature is not representing their constituents. They already have a certified winner, but just in case Gore overturns the election, they want this insurance policy....
Its almost a No Win Win situation----
From what I hear from the average person here in Fla. they want their man to win, but they want it done fairly so their is no shadow----
They want their vote to count-----
posted on November 30, 2000 03:25:37 PM
Oh no, our society is in greater decline than I realized. There actually are people who like and trust "LIE-berman."
Only thing worse than a two-faced LIE-berman is...........I guess there isn't.
posted on November 30, 2000 03:30:03 PM
Sarge, did you have a point you wanted to make? Care to comment about the future possibility of YOUR vote being voided by your Democrats in YOUR state? I believe that the Illinois Legislature is majority Democrats, no?
posted on November 30, 2000 03:38:26 PMKaty Thanks for this thread. I too am deeply, deeply concerned about this and I DO think it would be the equivalent of a bloodless coup if it succeeds (either in Florida or the U.S. House).
I don't wish to sound partisan (because I agree with you that this is far beyond a partisan issue), but I hope sensible Republicans will look long and hard at this and realize not just the ramifications (the precedent) already mentioned here, but another I find even more frightening:
That the election is being hijacked by a group of thugs.
Again, that's not intended as a partisan statement. They (those Republicans involved) are plotting to defy both the Florida and U.S. Supreme Courts IF it turns out that their guy doesn't win. That's very, very dangerous. Americans have gone to other countries to help oversee elections just so that very type of thing doesn't / can't happen.
From my reading, I think it would be extra-legal. I don't see how they think that because the code says that electors shall be chosen in "a manner the legislature shall direct" goes ON to say that they can do it themselves if they don't like the outcome.
(Oh, good, I just saw that Gore went to the Supreme Court to prevent the legislature from doing this -- U.S. or Florida???? Anybody know? ..... Never mind, I just heard it's the U.S. Supreme Court.)
Now, think about this. Let's say the FL legislature doesn't come to its senses and proceeds. Let's say that whatever Supreme Court agrees that the legislature must cease and desist such behavior. Who or what is to stop them? They've already thumbed their noses in advance at the U.S. Supreme Court in their very PLAN. Who or what is to stop them? Will it come to calling out the National Guard?
And how dramatically FURTHER polarizing all this is.
Zelda, I am SO relieved that the people in Florida are outraged. Thanks for posting that. I saw Palm Beach County citizens in front of the legislature yesterday, and they were pretty outraged too. So glad it's spreading -- that could be the ONLY thing to stop this insanity.
posted on November 30, 2000 03:53:06 PM
Unfortunately, the action of the florida legislature would not be a new thing, nor is it without precedent. The Florida legislature, as well as every legislature has already done an appointment of electors as they aare required to do by the U.S. Constitution. All that the newer republican Florida legislature is proposing is to appoint a new set more in keeping with their current partisan structure.
Floridians democrats may not like it, but republicans were elected to seats which enable their participation in the process.
Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.
posted on November 30, 2000 04:00:09 PM
But krs, the manner in which the electors are to be chosen according to how the legislature directed is IN PROCESS.
The legislature directed a popular vote, followed by a protest period including manual recounts (if requested), followed by a contest phase.
The Republicans like to complain about the Florida Supreme Court "changing the rules" of the election (a charge I think is baseless), but if the legislature decided ("directed" at this point that they'll just do it themselves, that really would be changing the rules. I just don't see that they have the legitimate power or right to do it.
posted on November 30, 2000 04:24:43 PM
I think that they do have that power, but I think it would be an unwise and unfortunate thing to do right during an election. It's a safety valve that would in essence circumvent the result of the voting, or counting that may well not be needed to assure the election of GW.
If it turns out that the courts do decide that there should be recounting as requested by democratic factions, and if those recounts are adverse to the republicans, then implementing the measure of appointing a republican biasedd set of electors would appear to be a blatant action ignoring and bypassing the rulings of the courts.
Very bad PR for a Bush presidency, but doable nevertheless. There is nothing that outlines WHEN the electors will be appointed.
Ah, excuse me,; there is a time requirement in place set by the congress for all states to appoint electors. Is that date Dec. 12?
posted on November 30, 2000 04:27:09 PM
I wish the partisan politicians would come down to S Fla and see just how outraged the public is---They are not portraying a true picture on CNN. They are telling the rest of the nation that we are supporting the judgement of the legislature. This is a bunch of BS........They are going to pass out ribbons in protest. I have not heard or seen support of any of this from anyone
No, you won't see support of it in any case, particularly not because of the distorted way it's being presented by the media and by the democrats involved.
But it's the law. A tawdry use of the law in this case, IMO, but irrefutably Art.II of the U.S. Constitution.
posted on November 30, 2000 04:48:51 PM
Yes, Dec. 12th is the date by which the governor of each state must have sent it's certification of electors to Washington. My understanding is that Jeb Bush has already done this. What the Republicans are worried about is that if Gore prevails in court and a recount is done that shows HIM the winner, then the court would tell the state to certify the slate of Gore electors. Then you'd could possibly have two sets of electors, which would be the correct ones?
I believe that there is a federal election statute that makes an allowance for such action as is being contemplated by the Florida legislature. I think this statute is very old, I need to find more information on it, but I think it's from the 1800's. There is no precedent for this action. No state has ever done it before, and I rather think that whatever provision was made in that statute was not for THIS purpose. Nevertheless, you will not hear the Democrats call it illegal, because it is not. But it has never been done before, and it is in effect voiding the vote of the Floridians, no matter WHICH candidate they chose. THIS is what makes it so scary. It will lead us down a very slippery slope.
Yes Zelda and krs, the news media's response to this situation surprises me quite a lot. The only one I've heard comment about in any depth is that gal on CNN, who has the legal show. I forget her name, when she talks, her mouth is crooked. Aw,geeze, what IS her name? But she seems to be rather perturbed about what an act should mean. The rest of the media's idea of BIG news is watching a caravan of cars roll up a dusty trail to the ranch and fall over themselves to see who gets to ask the first really dumb question of the day.
But seriously, this is a very scary matter, and of momentous importance to our election process. Taking out the partisanship, and understanding that republicans here are eager for their candidate to win, everyone MUST understand that such an action by the Florida legislature will set a precedent in FUTURE elections, where the shoe could be on the other foot, and democrats might do the same thing. For EITHER party to so arrogantly disregard and in effect, null and void the public vote to achieve their partisan goals is both arrogant and dangerous to the democratic principles of our elections system. It truly scares me if this comes to pass and there will be severe repercussions down the road. Remember, that in our system WE vote a slate of electors, and for a legislative body to take that vote away and appoint THEIR preferred electors is a step toward overturning the democratic process.
at this point that they'll just do it themselves, that really would be changing the rules. I just don't see that they have the legitimate power or right to do it.