posted on December 7, 2000 07:22:56 PMMarwin: Interesting topic. Having worked in hospitals, I'm not unfamiliar with death, but those deaths are sanitized to the point of sterility. The deaths I've seen outside the hospital are raw and messy and they've affected me more deeply.
Regardless of the location, though, each death has reminded me of my own mortality and how it can be snatched from me in an instant.
posted on December 7, 2000 07:35:46 PM
Wow, man! That's some potent stuff!
I know exactly what you mean. Didja ever like......really look at this whole existence thing? You know.....the whole oneness aspect, the unifyin' force and...., uh.....all that. Wow...really heavy stuff,man...
posted on December 7, 2000 08:17:46 PM
Cheer up, marwin! I see dead people everywhere, and just because all those creepy Victorian memento mori have fallen out of favor doesn't mean we're less fascinated by that one last boogie off the immortal coil, does it? You want death art? Check out EverQuest! You want odes? I can't believe you've forgotten the Worm Poem, marwin.
THE WORMS CRAWL IN
Don't ever laugh as the hearse goes by,
For you may be the next to die.
They'll wrap you up in a big white sheet
From your head down to your feet.
They'll put you in a big black box
And cover you up with dirt and rocks.
All goes well for about a week,
Then your coffin begins to leak.
The worms crawl in, the worms crawl out,
The worms play pinochle on your snout.
They eat your eyes, they eat your nose,
They eat the jelly between your toes.
A big green worm with rolling eyes
Crawls in your stomach and out your eyes.
Your stomach turns a slimy green,
And pus pours out like whipping cream.
You spread it on a slice of bread,
And that's what you eat when you are dead.
I dunno about that "make peace with death" business. I'm waiting for The Jolly Reaper, myself.
posted on December 7, 2000 08:52:27 PM
Monks would keep a skull on their desk at one time, a constant reminder of their mortality. For me I only have to remember a visit to an emergency room a few years ago to remind me of my own.
Do not go gentle into that good night, Old age should burn and rave at close of day; Rage, rage against the dying of the light. Dylan Thomas
posted on December 7, 2000 09:34:53 PM
This is my first post here, but I've been "lurking" for quite a while. I wanted to throw in my 2 cents worth on this subject.
I am a paramedic, and my mother and I have both worked in hospice for many years. I have seen death in all shapes and forms, young and old. But what affects me the most, is watching the survivors.
To me, it is as if our culture feels that death is failure. Failure on the part of the dying, and on the part of the loved ones. To acknowledge it would be to accept failure. It is one of the disgraces of our current, modern medical system, IMHO. It is also due to the media, and its sanitaztion of dying.
One Thanksgiving, after a great meal, my family sat down to "get things in order". We sat with Mom and Dad, and filled out Living Wills, DNRs, and did a will where my sister and I picked the stuff in the house that we wanted. It turned out to be a memorable evening. We were ready, and even kinda had fun doing it. My friends thought we were the most morbid family they had ever heard of. Nobody knew that, within 6 months, my Dad would be diagnosed with cancer and pass away. As difficult as it was, we didn't have to worry about the "what if's". And it was because in my morbid little family, we faced death head-on.
I transported a patient the other night. 98 years old, terminal cancer and heart disease. The family insisted that they go to the hospital and I quote, "get all better, because you're stronger than this!" The patient looked at me on the way to the hospital and said, "I know they mean well. They just don't understand that when I die, I just want to die well."
Dying is an action, not a lack of action. And until we, as a whole, can come to embrace this idea, we will continue to be fractured from our families, and live in fear of the inevitable end.
posted on December 7, 2000 09:51:35 PM
When my father-in-law knew he was dying of cancer, he and the family arranged for him to die at home. We can't say enough good things about Hospice. The family was kept informed of what to expect on each step of the way. When the end was nearing, the Hospice people were there every day. And when he died, although he was no longer truly aware, he was at home surrounded by his wife and children.
My husband thinks I'm morbid, but I really don't want to be kept functioning after "I" am no longer there. I trust him to know when I'm gone and pull the plug. And what he doesn't want to know is that if I know I have a long painful death before me, I'm checking out early. My life has been good, I'm not having a miserable end.
And on a lighter note:
Resume
Razors pain you
Rivers are damp
Acids stain you
Drugs cause cramp
Guns aren't lawful
Nooses give
Gas smells awful
Might as well live
posted on December 8, 2000 02:20:37 AM
"The living go on dying,
The dead increase in number;
Left in this world, ah --
How long must I go on
Lamenting for the dead?"
And how long must I, who wrote that poem,
Live on, like flowers fallen, like leaves scattered..
posted on December 9, 2000 08:42:12 PM
I also am a medic, working with a volunteer ambulance association in this rural area. I love the job, love teaching the course.
But the greatest thing this job has done for me is to get me over my fear of death. I've walked highways in the middle of the night, looking for missing victims from cars, missing body parts. I've been late to luncheons in the city when I drove up on an accident and spent my 'luncheon' trying to keep a person alive until the helicopter could get there. And I've taken the seniors on their last trip to the hospital.
You're very right. Everyone needs to see death. It makes it more real, and makes you think twice about what is really important...and it ain't how many feedback you've got!
posted on December 9, 2000 10:54:50 PM
I don't agree that everyone needs to see death. Not everyone needs to stand by helplessly and watch their Father, whom they dearly loved, lie flat of his back and vomit blood so hard that the blood splashes on his knees.
Not everyone needs to see a very young family member, dying of a rare and horrible cancer, in so much pain that even being in a sort of comatose state from morphine doesn't stop the grimaces on his face or the utterances and moans caused by the agony that he is feeling.
Not everyone needs to have their heart torn out by hearing a loved one beg pitifully to search for a faith healer so that he can live for just a few more months, even while living in hellish pain from cancer.
Not everyone needs to watch their beloved Mother's heart slowly fail and listen to the awful sounds and rattles as she struggles to breath air into her lungs, but they slowly fill with fluid and she sounds as if she is drowning (which she is).
Of course, I would never have even thought of leaving any of mine or my husband's family members alone at these times.
However, I hope for your sakes that none of you ever have to endure such.
Edited for spellin and I'm sure I didn't find all my mistakes.
[ edited by jada on Dec 9, 2000 10:57 PM ]
posted on December 10, 2000 06:06:36 AM
Jada, I think you're missing my point. Watching someone die is not pleasant, and I wouldn't wish some of the things I've seen on anyone.
Not long ago, I was first on the scene when a very young man was involved in a carwreck. There was so much damage that I knew he would most likely not live-maybe not even until the ambulance got there. I carry the basic essentials in my car, and did my best to keep him breathing, at least. But he did die later at the hospital.
Nothing about it was pleasant. My husband was with me, and asked me later, "How can you deal with this? I couldn't stand watching that boy in such distress"
My answer to him was this: I'm grateful to God that I was there, knew how to help, and that he didn't have to go through it without someone with him.
Does this make my point clearer? No, I don't get a 'kick' out of death, I am no less respectful of death than I ever was. but I have learned to deal with it, and THAT is the point I am trying to make, as was the initiator of this thread.
posted on December 10, 2000 01:10:55 PM
Bearmom - I didn't interpret your post as saying death was pleasant in any way. I certainly never thought or said that you get a "kick" out of death, and I don't know why my saying that not everyone should see the agony of dying gave you that impression, but I apologize.
I believe the creator of this thread would prefer to speak in more vague terms of the effect of watching people die, and I apologize to him as well.
My posts came from extremely personal experiences, and I should have kept them to myself as the actual, graphic details of watching someone die (a reality check so to speak), should not have been included in this thread.
posted on December 10, 2000 03:26:32 PM
I've posted before about the death of my Dad this past August. Thanks to the strides in Hospice or Palliative Care, his passing was peaceful. While it was difficult to be there at the very end, my sister, my mom, and I wouldn't have had it any other way. Even though my Dad was kept sedated so he wouldn't suffer, I think he knew we were there. I think it also helped up deal with his death by actually seeing that he didn't suffer. Without this Palliative care, his death would have been painful, struggling for each breath and slowly suffocating from end stage congestive heart failure.
My two brothers didn't even consider staying...I really think that was their loss.
Those who have to deal with an extended illness, especially one that will surely end in a painful or struggling death should look into Hospice care. Their approach to a natural end of life is very helpful. While the doctors are trained to extend life, those in Hospice care are trained to deal with the end of life. Their perspective is wonderful in my opinion. My dad just happened to be in the hospital, and stayed there, but Hospice is more and more available to those staying at home.
posted on December 12, 2000 07:40:13 AM
I disagree that there is no longer art dealing with death. There is a considerable amount of death-related popular music and pop culture art. This is not regarded as "good" art by the larger community and in fact the community tends to be horrified by its presence. The worry is always that death will be glorified in some way and that young people will be influenced to commit suicide or live dangerously. They do not see that a lot of death-related art results from people, especially young people, trying to deal with a concept that is very much a part of their reality but for the most part is not discussed in any other channels.
Death is a part of life and people need to learn to deal with it. In olden times as the posters above pointed out, death was more present in daily existence. Nowadays, the culture tends to deny death.
I attended a religious high school where I was required to take a religion course each year. My final year, I had to take a course called Death and Dying because it was the only one that would fit with my computer science electives. I didn't want to take it and thought it was stupid, who wants to hear about death. It was actually a very practical course that made me highly aware of the culture's attitude towards death and better ways to approach the inevitable ending of life. And, it contained practical advice on things such as dealing with the funeral home. When my father died many years later I was very thankful for having taken that course. I wish everyone could take something similar so death could be dealt with in a reasonable manner and not swept under the rug.
________
I never had one, and I didn't want one, and I don't, so now I do...
posted on December 12, 2000 09:38:44 AM
This is one topic I know something about, but not by choice. Having been an EMT for six years, working in a nursing home for 3 and having died twice myself (I got Better) I have got more insight into it than I would have asked for.
Everybody wants me to tell them that I saw the infamous tunnel of light in the moments when I had no vital signs. I didn't.
One of the more peaceful deaths I have ever seen was this little old man who passed on in the nursing home I worked in. It was in the middle of a blizzard and we were waiting for the national guardsmen to come and transport him to the hospital. He looked up at me and said,"You know honey, if it's not one da*%
thing it's another" and died on the spot.
But for the most part the people in our nursing homes died in the company of thier family.I don't really believe that the intention is to hide them away. Most of the people I encountered could not be cared for at home.
Speaking as someone who has worked in the health care industry and whose father passed away recently I'd say if you don't see much death now it is only because you are young.
As you get older friends and family start to pass away at an alarming rate.
Maybe we don't talk about death much on this message board but within my friends and family we discuss the deaths of loved ones.
It is a painful subject so it is no ofton discussed with people we are not close to.
As far as death in art goes only those that already have a name for themselves (like doctor death) can get away with the truly morbid. The rest of us have to produce work that will sell.
Since art is no longer supported mainly by the church it's subjects tend to be more what people want to see and not lessons the church requires us to learn.
Would I rather see a view of a mountain stream than a body mangled in it's last death throws? Well yeah!
{Now if your still longing to view the "throws of final agony" I think the Patriots are playing this Sunday}
