reamond
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posted on December 8, 2000 01:20:34 PM
FL Supreme Court orders undervote ballots to be hand counted state wide.
Someone is going to have egg on their face. This doesn't bode well for GW or Jeb.
In any event, democracy wins.
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zeldas
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posted on December 8, 2000 01:24:31 PM
Amazing isn't it? Bush campaign is in lockdown. They should have listened to the fat lady
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chococake
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posted on December 8, 2000 01:29:42 PM
Hooooray!!!!
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krs
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posted on December 8, 2000 01:30:15 PM
What a roller-coaster. They should have put it on pay per view. Sold tickets.
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toke
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posted on December 8, 2000 01:30:49 PM
Good grief.
Chaos. Back to the non-existant standard for judging voter intent. And the Florida legislature. And even finding the undervote ballots in all those counties.
The U.S. Supreme Court.
And ultimately...the U.S. Congress and then Jeb Bush???
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packer111
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posted on December 8, 2000 01:42:46 PM
Not chaos; justice may yet prevail.
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moonmem-07
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posted on December 8, 2000 01:47:49 PM
I'm very happy about the decision but worried about a longer wait. I'm afraid it is going to divide the Democrats and Republicans even more.
"If man were to be crossed with a cat, it would greatly improve the man, but deteriorate the cat." Mark Twain
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toke
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posted on December 8, 2000 01:52:07 PM
The definition of justice is subjective in this case. Before the revelry begins, try for some empathy. People are becoming quite angry in certain circles. This is not good...no matter who you support.
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HartCottageQuilts
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posted on December 8, 2000 01:57:19 PM
Agreed. What a mess. OTOH, what would we have to talk about if it were all over??
I've been on the MSNBC chatboard all day. I can't imagine how much less fun (dare I say it) this whole thing would be without the net, and the ability to look up the law and read the arguments and decisions for one's self.
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donny
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posted on December 8, 2000 01:57:41 PM
The same people in the same circle are the ones who get enraged. Do I have empathy for that? Not really.
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KatyD
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posted on December 8, 2000 01:57:55 PM
It's all moot. Can they get the votes recounted by the 12th? The Florida legislature has called a special session and they're going to appoint their own slate of electors. And that is that. No way around it. What is going to come out of recounting? Not a thing, EVEN if Gore comes out with more votes than Bush in the recount, the legislature is going to have their way with this. And so what powers does the Florida Supreme Court have in a "head to head" with the Florida Legislature? None. They can't "order" them not to appoint a new slate. It's a done deal.
KatyD
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HartCottageQuilts
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posted on December 8, 2000 02:04:05 PM
So, katy, if this is a victory at all for Gore, could we characterize it as a Pyrrhic one?
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donny
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posted on December 8, 2000 02:07:05 PM
Didn't I hear that Canada completely counted all its ballots, by hand, within 4 hours after the polls had closed? Seems to me that if Special Masters were appointed to count, that the undervotes could be counted fairly quickly.
Daniel Webster, of the Fl. Legislature, said, after the Fl. Supreme Court decision, that if the legal proceedings were final, that if Gore were the winner by the 12th, then they'd select a Democratic slate of electors. It's the 'finality' that's the kicker though, Bush still has a case on hold in Federal District Court, and might appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court as well. That would be the lack of finality that the Fl. State Legislature will use to appoint Bush electors, even if Gore is the apparent winner (probably).
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Zazzie
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posted on December 8, 2000 02:11:19 PM
and most of Canada has paper ballots that you mark with an X and are then hand counted.
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krs
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posted on December 8, 2000 02:14:05 PM
KatyD,
The purpose of the electors is to carry the majority vote of the people of a state to the electoral college regardless their individual party affiliation. They are compelled, even if not required, to do that.
It's a very rare thing that even one elector votes counter to the majority in a state and for the entire body of electors from a state to do so is nearly unimaginable.
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KatyD
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posted on December 8, 2000 02:18:08 PM
Oh yes, HCQ, I would agree to that. At this point, I don't believe that anything will save Gore, although I will be personally interested to see how the recounted votes turn out. But at any rate, I do believe that in this case the winner (Bush)will be the loser, and the loser (Gore) will be the winner. Bush's presidency will be irrepairably damaged, and he will never have any credibility whatsoever in office. As I said in another thread, the only good that will come of all this, is that the Bush family is finished politically.
KatyD
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inside
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posted on December 8, 2000 02:19:03 PM
So now every undervote in every county in Florida has to get their ballots to Tallahasee or do the canvass boards in each county count their own? And what standard will they use? What a can of worms. Glad I don't pay taxes in Florida.
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uaru
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posted on December 8, 2000 02:19:23 PM
I hope when this is all over, if its ever over they have a national referendum to change the spelling of the state to Floriduh.
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krs
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posted on December 8, 2000 02:20:39 PM
That would be the lack of finality that the Fl. State Legislature will use to appoint Bush electors, even if Gore is the apparent winner
I don't think so, Donny.
The same clock that Bush has been so desperately trying to run out will now work against him. It will be the count on Dec. 12 that will charge the electors and send them off to school.
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HartCottageQuilts
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posted on December 8, 2000 02:25:49 PM
Well, inside, I guess this is a case of you-get-what-you-pay-for. No income tax in FL, 7% sales tax, and although I own two single-family homes I pay a whopping $300 a year in property taxes. Fortunately, a debacle like the election doesn't occur very often, so the odds are in favor of no trouble and at minimal cost. OTOH, when there's trouble...fergit it.
edited to add:
Didn't I hear that Canada completely counted all its ballots, by hand, within 4 hours after the polls had closed?
Considering the population of Canada is - what, [b]reddeer[/i], 325? Maybe 350? - I'd say that wouldn't be too hard. 
[ edited by HartCottageQuilts on Dec 8, 2000 02:28 PM ]
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KatyD
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posted on December 8, 2000 02:27:10 PM
They are compelled, even if not required, to do that.But what does this mean, krs? They're not required, but are compelled? Not to get into semantics here, but why would they be "compelled" to do anything, if they were not "required" to do so? Do you honestly think that the legislature appointed electors will vote with the "majority" of Florida voters if a recount shows Gore the winner? I don't think so. They will have their own rationalization of how the recount is inaccurate, unfair, etc. etc.
It's a very rare thing that even one elector votes counter to the majority in a state and for the entire body of electors from a state to do so is nearly unimaginable. Well, this whole situation is a very "rare" thing to happen. If the Florida Republican members of legislature thought for one minute that the electors that they are going to appoint have the slightest inclination to jump the partisan ship, they wouldn't be doing what they are doing. They are doing this to ensure that Bush gets Florida's electoral votes, and nobody can stop them.
KatyD
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computerboy
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posted on December 8, 2000 02:29:32 PM
The whole situation stinks to high Heaven! It just proves what a partisan and litigious country we are. Very Sad! Rules changing by the hour, arrogant and self-important judges creating their own partisen rulings. Party powerplays and manouvering. Shame on all of them. Voter intent? Ridiculous! Butterfly ballet? Ridiculous! Pregnant chad? Ridiculous! The whole darn thing is WAY out of control. Why we even had our own little OJ Simpson Carovan in this ordeal.
It's time for this Country to do a little self evaluation....
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toke
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posted on December 8, 2000 02:30:28 PM
Hmm. How would everyone feel if Bush won the recount? Don't forget...they're now going to do the undervote in predominately Republican counties, as well. We're talking about over 100,000 more votes to be manually counted.
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RainyBear
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posted on December 8, 2000 02:34:44 PM
As a Gore supporter, at this point I'd almost be relieved if Bush won the recount (if it can even be completed in time). Unfortunately, if Gore ends up by some miracle winning this election, he'll be viewed by many as a fraud.
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moonmem-07
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posted on December 8, 2000 02:38:56 PM
I think if Bush wins with this recount, his win is much more legitimate. Even though he has been fighting it. It will be interesting to see what his camp says about this.
"If man were to be crossed with a cat, it would greatly improve the man, but deteriorate the cat." Mark Twain
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toke
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posted on December 8, 2000 02:39:56 PM
Exactly right, RainyBear. And so will Bush. The only way this could be saved at all IMO, is if Bush won the recount. If a recount ever happens.
For heaven's sake...even the activist Democrat Florida Supreme Court was 4 to 3...with Chief Justice Wells one of those dissenting. How much more divided can we get???
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mrpotatoheadd
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posted on December 8, 2000 02:46:25 PM
They are compelled, even if not required, to do that.
I'm confused now- is this about the Florida electoral vote or the PayPal business account upgrade?
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Shoshanah
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posted on December 8, 2000 02:49:23 PM
RainyBear...exactly what I have been telling my close friends and my family. I really fear that whoever DOES become President is heading for an extremely difficult road! and I would have preferred it be Bush, tripping over every rock.. Strictly a VERY personal opinion.
********************
Gosh Shosh!
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/rifkah/
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flynn
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posted on December 8, 2000 02:50:18 PM
From what I've heard on CNN the order states that the standard used in Palm Beach County is the standard to be used when counting the undervotes. Is this correct?
I'm for Bush, but if Gore wins this recount so be it, but I wil NEVER EVER look at him with a sense of awe (meaning it's the president). To me looking at him as the Vice President means he stole it - plain and simple. But I'm just a girl from Michigan, what does it matter what I think!
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krs
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posted on December 8, 2000 03:05:10 PM
Required as required by law, Katy. Compelled by the voters themselves.
The electors are not an independent arm of the government, they are selected, as I said, to carry the wishes of the people to Washington.
Some states DO have penalties available to impose if an elector votes counter to the popular vote in the state. Two states have an absolute requirement that electors vote as the majority voted. I don't know whether florida has penalties.
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