posted on December 9, 2000 08:18:18 PM new
Boy Scouts of American not allowing Gay Troop leaders. BSOA being kicked from their building they have occupied for the past 50 years, because of that decision.
I have no comment at this time. Just wanted a different hot topic.
posted on December 9, 2000 08:21:18 PM new
I am not going to take a stand on homosexuality, that's not the issue here. But I do believe that a private organization has the right to make their own bylaws, which is what this is really all about. Not homosexuality, but rights. Then again, the owner of the building has rights too!
posted on December 9, 2000 08:29:34 PM new
what two adults do is their business. the proximity of an adult homosexual to young people could be a problem. how would the topic of sex be discussed if brought up by a scout? as liberal as i am on some issues this is not one of them. i wouldn't want my son to have a gay troop leader.
posted on December 9, 2000 08:40:12 PM new
I don't equate homosexuality with pedophilia, so I don't have a problem with gay teachers or scout leaders or anything else. When it comes to sex, I had no problem with the school nurse discussing puberty with my daughter, but I expect the teachers etc. to defer these questions to me. I will attend to the education of my children in these matters, until their peer groups take over anyway,
The Boy Scouts have a right exclude whomever they want, and they lose access to public uilities by doing so. I would expect no less had they excluded any other group, say left-handers or diabetics. Their choice, and one they made knowing the consequences.
posted on December 9, 2000 08:41:18 PM new
A homosexual is not a pedophile. A male homosexual is no more likely to "go after" a young boy than a straight man would be to go after a young girl.
Pedophiles should not ever be near children.
I remember my favorite teacher in grade school. He was an older "gay" man. We loved him as a teacher. He was fun, engaging, and really interested in helping us all do our best. There was nothing "funny" about him. What a shame if he had been denied his life work because he was a homosexual.
As for the Boy Scouts, I think they have had a lot of problems with pedophiles and they translate that to homosexual and then think they can weed out these people by just eliminating any and all homosexuals. I wouldn't be surprised if they could legally do that. Whether it is right or wrong is another story.
posted on December 9, 2000 08:42:08 PM new
On second thought, yes, I do have a comment on this aspect. If my son was in BS, and I found out the troop leader was gay, I honestly dont think I would have a problem with it. Why? Because I believe that one cant be MADE to have any particular sexual preference and a troop leader couldnt make him be what he isnt, regardless of what he "is" in his own sexuality. Concerning the rights of BSOA having policies, rules, conditions, its their club, organization, etc. Its their right to choose who to represent them.
posted on December 9, 2000 08:43:40 PM new
victoria- if the school nurse was gay would it be a problem? if she told your daughter at the age of 6-12 that homosexuality was good would it be a problem?
posted on December 9, 2000 08:44:10 PM new
bearmom - I agree with you. And although not a lover of homosexuality I can see some of the Gay Rights Movement and I can see the Boy Scouts position.
I agree with the Boy Scouts, gays have advanced theories that they are born that way. I have never bought into this concept. And as such I accept that young men can be impressionable. If I am right and gay lifestyle is a mental choice not a genetic accident at birth. I don't want impressionable young men impressed at that lifestyle. If the Gays are right and people are naturally born that way. I don't want a young man discovering he was born that way until he is 18 and old enough to choose that birthright for himself.
Take the Explorer recently kicked out and the decision upheld by the Supreme Court. Somehow he didn't discover he was gay until he went to college. So why the need to share it. Until he said he was gay no one was wiser because he had been a boy scout so long he discovered how to hide that aspect of his being born gay. Then again if he didn't discover he was homosexual until college. How can we advance the theory he was born that way?
The Boy Scouts have a right to deny admission to a homosexual. The homsexuals feel they have a right to be boy scouts. At what do we realize that every right at some point will interfere with the right of another. Freedom of Speech entails some Speech will be hateful. Freedom of Press means some items will be printed that will insult rights of others. Freedom of Religion mean we practice how we please and that practice may or may not annoy or insult someone else.
I say this and I'll say it again. Being American is a great responsiblity because it takes a citizenship that is responsible to have this much freedom.
posted on December 9, 2000 08:47:32 PM new
busybiddy- of course not all homosexuals are pedophiles nor are all pedophiles homosexuals. but if, as you say, the boy scouts have had many problems with pedophiles then can't we assume that a good percentage of them are homosexual?
Schools, youth groups, and churches have also had problems with pedophiles and I know that many of these were men molesting young girls so it is not exclusively a same sex thing. Obviously, the BOY scouts would be same sex molestations.
I wonder what the incidence is over at the GIRL Scouts?
posted on December 9, 2000 09:07:58 PM newif the school nurse was gay would it be a problem? if she told your daughter at the age of 6-12 that homosexuality was good would it be a problem?
posted on December 9, 2000 09:14:13 PM new
frannys- if just talking about homosexuality to a child makes a person a pedophile, then why would someone want a gay scout leader who might talk about this if asked or even if not asked? are you still saying it would be o.k. with you if your child had a gay scout leader?
posted on December 9, 2000 09:20:26 PM new
Stusi, I think we are looking at it in different aspects. I took it as the nurse saying "its GOOD to be homosexual. So BE ONE, or ITS OK TO BE ONE, or IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT ITS LIKE, ASK ME, sort of thing (you know, like a come-on). If the nurse was saying "its ok to be gay and not be ashamed, but it is MY decision and MY life" or something along those lines, then I see no problem with it. Its how I took the phrase that was said. Looking at it from a different angle, there are other scenarios that could be taken into consideration.
I have two very dear friends who are male, and gay and definetly what one would consider "flamers". In short, they show it, act it, tell it. When my son was about 9, those friends were over visiting and said to me "um hm, girl. Your boy is SO CUTE". I laughed and said "thank you. I know". They said it in a way that was insinuating, and my son KNEW they said it in that way for a purpose...but he also knew they were gay and he knew they were teasing him. He squirmed, got all embarassed, and punched them in the arm as he walked out the door with his basketball, throwing a big grin over his shoulder. He is now married, with a child of his own. And they are considered his uncles (but they like to be called Aunts, lol).
[ edited by FrannyS on Dec 9, 2000 09:25 PM ]
posted on December 9, 2000 09:25:55 PM new
you're right of course. but why would a person not say that their lifestyle was good if asked? out of 100 such situations how many do you think will turn out with this happening and are you willing to take the chance that it wouldn't happen with your child?
posted on December 9, 2000 09:29:03 PM new
Yes, I would take the chance with my child, because he is what he is. It doesnt matter if hes straight or gay. He IS. Do you see? Gay people can be either idiots, jerks, bad people, or they can be decent, kind, generous and have lots to offer. Those I have met and known over the years are people I consider family or would WANT as family. Having my son around gay people wont make him gay.
posted on December 9, 2000 09:31:30 PM new
Is "pedophilia" really the reason the scouts have barred participation by gay people? I thought that their view was just that homosexuality was contrary to their "Christian values."
The Scouts, as a private organization, should be allowed to make any membership rules they see fit, including barring the participation of gay people.
But they shouldn't then be allowed access to public schools or accept funding from the government. If they want to be exclusionary, they should stand on their own two feet in doing so.
posted on December 9, 2000 09:33:54 PM new
it would be o.k. for your child to be around pedophiles? you said that if someone told your child it was good to be a homosexual that they were a pedophile! this would be o.k. with you? what if the chance was 50%?
[ edited by stusi on Dec 9, 2000 09:35 PM ]
posted on December 9, 2000 09:36:31 PM new
triplesnack, I believe you are correct in the statement that its against their values. I read in the local paper that "Troop leaders cannot teach morals and ethics when they condone and practise homosexuality". Not exactly those words, but close. They were also booted out of the building they have been in for 50 years. Divided the town in half with the actions of the city doing that. Yes, the city leased it to them for 1 dollar a year. Not anymore.
posted on December 9, 2000 09:39:25 PM new
No Stusi. I didnt say that. You read what I was trying to convey, wrong. No, my child would not be around pedophiles. Homosexuals arent necessarily pedophiles. I said, if someone tried to make my son WANT to be homosexual, and they did it is a nasty way, like a pedophile would, then it would be wrong and I would not wish my son anywhere near someone like that. Im not being clear I guess.
posted on December 9, 2000 09:40:34 PM new
triplesnack- if the % of pedophilia was greater among the gays then that would be a valid reason! if Christian values was the reason what would the Jewish members say about the scouts acting out of Christian values? on second thought i really do not want to get into religious discussions.
posted on December 9, 2000 09:42:47 PM new
I'm pretty sure that the school nurse is obliged to adhere to an approved curriculum, it's doubtful that homosexuality is on it. She is a professional; heterosexual, bisexual, asexual, sexual bon vivant, I expect her to keep her private life just that, private. So no, I don't have a problem with a gay nurse. Next time I see her, I'll ask her what she says if a child asks about homosexuality. I'm betting that the school has a stock vague answer and that the child is encourage to ask at home.
I don't think anyone chooses to be gay and I don't think homosexuality is "bad". I'm hetero, and I hope my children are too, mostly because it's what I'm comfortable with, the traditional guy/girl thing. I want to be able to share similar experiences with my children. I also don't want them to be punished by society for being any more different than the rest of us. And I don't want my children to be prejudiced or take action against a segment of society for being gay. Or any of our other differences.
I'm a flawed person, and sometimes I react with the prejudices of my upbringing, but I'm trying to shield my children from that. Their world is more diverse than mine was. I want them to be ready to live in it.
posted on December 9, 2000 09:42:53 PM new
Let me try again:
"Its GOOD to be homosexual. Its fun. Its sexy. Wanna try it?" versus "yes, my partner is female also. I am homosexual. Its my choice. Its what I am. Sometimes, one finds love where others believe there shouldnt be. Discuss it with your parents, if you want to know more. Youre only 6, 12, 15". See? I was looking at the statement in the FIRST way, not the second.
posted on December 9, 2000 09:44:05 PM new
fran- check your previous post. you didn't say anything like that. if that is how you meant to say it i understand. i believe that in the majority of cases it would be o.k. i just wouldn't take the chance due to the % that it wouldn't be o.k.
[ edited by stusi on Dec 9, 2000 09:51 PM ]
posted on December 9, 2000 09:49:57 PM new
Stusi, thats what I was trying to convey. I read the statment in the first sense, not the second. In short, someone who wants to "show" a child, 6-12, what its like to be homosexual is probably a pedophile.
Anyway...thats delving into something that I have no idea what it feels like to be. I am not homosexual, nor is my son. My initial questioning was of BSOA and why they had to leave their building, or are being sued, etc, because they stand firm in what they want their organization to be known as, represented by, etc.
posted on December 9, 2000 09:51:15 PM new
I was a Boy Scout for three years (age 11 to 14). I liked being a scout and still retain fond memories of the experience.
The assistant scoutmaster for our troop was an unmarried middle aged man, portly and balding, who lived with his mom. He took a special interest in a few boys, myself among them, and often arranged weekend trips to the theatre, museums, art galleries, and other cultural events. He never went on camping trips or displayed an interest in traditional scouting activities. Our troop was famous for its yearly musical stage production. He directed and choreographed. We were known as the Minstrel Troop.
The Asst. Scoutmaster was a decent, proper man and, to my knowledge, never laid a hand on a kid or did anything untoward. I do recall that there was no small amount of adult concern (lost on me at the time) regarding the man's proclivities, given his "suspicious" lifestyle.
I don't know if he was gay. It seems unfair, even today, to assume that he was. I do know that the best parts of scouting, for me, were those weekend trips and the yearly show. It opened up a world to me that I had previously not experienced and kindled an appreciation of art and culture that I believe I still retain.
My somewhat nebulous point here is that it didn't matter if the man were gay or not. He was a positive adult role model to me and sexuality, quite properly, did not enter into the relationship.
I disagree with the Boy Scouts on this issue. They should be happy to have any good man who is willing and able to be a Scoutmaster or any young man who wants to be a scout.
Oh....we also found time to learn to tie knots, build campfires, set up tents, and all the traditional scouting activities.
posted on December 9, 2000 09:56:57 PM newif the % of pedophilia was greater among the gays then that would be a valid reason! - stusi
Yes, perhaps it would. I was just saying I've never heard the Scouts organization say that they don't want gay people involved "because they molest little boys". I've only heard them say the bit about moral leadership that FrannyS has mentioned.
I don't have any data to back it up, but I don't think the percentage of gay people who are pedophiles is any greater than the percentage of straight people who are pedophiles. I have heard the statistic that there are far more "heterosexual" child molesters than homosexual. But since in the population there are far more straight people than gay people, that would make sense.
As far as the Christian/Jewish thing goes (if you didn't want to discuss it, you maybe shouldn't have brought it up ...? ) the Scouts are a Christian organization. There's a lot of aspects of this that could be discussed. But I will say that a person's religion is a choice. A person's sexuality is not. Plus, I'm not aware that the Boy Scouts have taken a stand barring participation of Jewish people.
[trying to edit for clarity!]
[ edited by triplesnack on Dec 9, 2000 10:39 PM ]
posted on December 9, 2000 09:57:43 PM new
Xardon, I agree with you. But I also understand BSOA wanting THEIR organization to be what THEY want it to be. Like the mens clubs who say NO to women being allowed in. Why would a woman want in there anyway? Just so they can say "Im equal"? Why? Locally, there is a fitness club that is women only. They said they LIKE it just being women, so they can let it all hang out (so to speak), and not worry about men oggling their fit or not-so-fit bodies. So what happened? A man sued them, saying HE wanted access and he should have the right to be there, even though it was clearly WOMEN ONLY. He won, too. I think it sucks. Same with BSOA. They should WANT a leader to do what yours did for you, xardon. But its their RIGHT to say no, if thats what they want.
posted on December 9, 2000 11:15:50 PM new
Boys Scouts of America and the Scouting organization are NOT CHRISTIAN. They do have religious undertones---but they are NOT EXclusively CHRISTIAN.
Here's a Bee for your bonnet--to get you out of the bedrooms of the nation
----in Canada Scouts is no longer called BOY SCOUTS of Canada---but is just called SCOUTS CANADA---why you ask???? Because in Canada--Scouts accepts boys and girls into the packs.
