posted on December 24, 2000 09:24:44 AM new
The bummer is that when you live in a cold climate and have natural gas heating, you are stuck big time.
I just got my first really cold weather gas bill and I almost fainted. Previously, my highest ever bill was $166. This December bill was $312!!!! I can only imagine what Jan and Feb, the big gas use months will be.
All of my neighbors have been calling each other comparing bills and almost all were well over double what they had been. Some of the older folks are actually scared; they are afraid they won't be able to pay. I called our gas company and can't even get through; the wait times are over 30 minutes. Guess they are getting bombarded with calls.
I was expecting a bigger bill due to news reports so I deliberately kept the thermostat on 68 degrees and we are very careful to conserve gas: we wear sweaters in the house, keep the doors closed, limit hot water shower times, etc. So here I am really "budgeting" and I get that whopper of a bill. I am not happy.
This just reminds me of the gasoline thing: let's see how much we can get out of them consumers.
posted on December 24, 2000 09:28:50 AM new
Here in Dubya's home state, our natural gas prices doubled. No warning to the consumer whatsoever. Kinda odd since natural gas is one of our natural resources, and the cost of production hasn't gone up.
Dubya's "prediction" of recession seems less a matter of foolishness than one of contrivance.
posted on December 24, 2000 09:35:38 AM new
I'm curious as to where y'all live. I have the priviledge of living in the first California county that implemented deregulation of electric utilities starting last June and seeing our electicity bill triple. Now our gas bill is just about on a par. Our bill for NOVEMBER is $250.00. Normally it is about $100=125 depending upon how cold it is. I can't wait for January's bill which is always our highest because of cold weather and Christmas lights. Deregulation...coming to your neighborhood soon. And by the way, GW is a big fan of deregulation...
posted on December 24, 2000 09:39:07 AM newThis just reminds me of the gasoline thing: let's see how much we can get out of them consumers.
But first you have to convince them that there is a "shortage". And then make up excuses as to why the power plants are taken offline due to "emergency unscheduled maintenance", adding to so-called "shortage".
They were shut down, 17 of them, because they'd supposedly already exceeded their allowable emission standards for the year. So the price will come up, the emissions situation will be alleviated by Dubya's lack of concern for air quality, and everyone will adjust to the new elevated cost.
Watch GW 'fix' the problem to the great relief of the freezing many by lifting the emission limits by presidential decree.
I live in Northern Ohio. Until the California electric problems, Northern Ohio was known to have the highest kilowatt cost for electricity in the nation.
My electric runs 80/month and around 100-110 in the winter due to the furnace fan running all the time! My gas USED to be on a $62/mo budget until now.
posted on December 26, 2000 04:54:59 AM new
For those of you who remember the 70's, the first energy crisis was Natural Gas, then gasoline, then electricity.
Watch the Middle East- sooner or later there will be an excuse for an embargo.
I think GW's stint in the Whitehouse will be like Carter's, short and none too sweet. Remember, Carter ran on bringing "dignity and honesty" back to the Oval Office too.
posted on December 26, 2000 06:20:46 AM newkatyd, my understanding (from my beloved, a CA girl who moved here so she could afford to live) of the CA problem isn't that it's one of "shortage", nor is anybody saying that it is; but that this is the predictable result of regulation preventing power companies' passing on costs to the consumer for many, many years - costs which have now accrued to the tune of some $8B last time I heard. Who, exactly, do you propose make up the shortfall? Please do not look to MY tax dollars to relieve you. YOU enjoyed artificially depressed power rates, not I.
Talk about a shining example of the hideous long-term effect of government-imposed price controls...
posted on December 26, 2000 08:41:13 AM new
Good morning, HCQ. That is not exactly true. Power rates have not been artificially depressed for many, many years at all, and that $8B figure you refer to is the difference in the amount that California utilities must pay for electricity in the newly created "open market" and amount they can charge consumers due to the emergency price caps put in place due to astronomically soaring (and many say artificially inflated) costs of buying electricity from out of state power producers. This is called the "Balancing Account". In 1996, California Legislature signed a deregulation bill that was "designed" to open the market to smaller power providers, with the idea that these new small power companies would compete with the "big guys" to offer consumers "choice" of electricity providers and thus cheaper rates as a result of a "free market system". The bill promised a 10% cut in rates for residences and small business, with 20% by 2002. The architect of the bill was a democrat....State Representative Steve Peace (who has since changed his tune) and who happens to be from our county. Don't look for him to be re-elected. This deregulation bills called for the utilities to divest themselves of their power producing plants and to buy their electricity on an open market (Power Exchange, an entity created by deregulation where electricity is bought and sold by the power providers) and simply pass the cost of the power, (and the savings due to the "competition" on to the consumer. Unfortunately, it didn't work this way. The "small power businesses" found that they couldn't find sources of cheaper electricity to offer consumers and quickly went belly up. The power plants owned by our utilities in our county were bought by large out of state power companies, such as Enron, Dynergy, Sempra, Duke Energy, etc. The cost per megawatt hour of electricity recently soared to $1500 up from about $50 last June, and from a couple of dollars a year ago. It has been capped at $250 temporarily until this mess is sorted out. The difference in price goes into a "balancing account". And this difference is the difference between what the utilities are "paying" and what they are "charging" to the consumer. Our county was the first to deregulate in the state,in other words, our utility (SDG & E)no longer owns any power producing plants, and the other state utilities are set to follow in 2001, PG&E (No. California) and Edison (LA). This "balancing account" is set to come due in two years. No one has come up with a definitive answer of who is going to be responsible for it, but right now, it is the consumer. It will grow as the other utilites deregulate and sell of their electricity producing plants under the deregulatiion law. The other California counties have seen what has happened to San Diego and the gigantic increase of electricity costs since deregulation, and everyone is scrambling to come up with an answer to solve a problem that basically will plunge California into an economic depression the likes that have never been seen. This affects more than the residential consumer, it affects business too. In our county, companies went out of business, relocated out of state and raised prices astronomically because of their power bills. We're talking about restaurants, dry cleaners, bakeries, grocery stores, retail stores, manufacturing plants, and our big industry here, biotech. Many consumers simply couldn't pay their electric bills, and SDG&E at one point even promised not to shut off power for non-payment. It was a MAJOR crisis until a cap was put on for electricity consumers retroactive to last June, because people couldn't pay their bills!. The difference in this "cap" goes into that "balancing account". Because of this utilities (power providers NOT SUPPLIERS) are in a quandary. They must continue to pay the inflated electricity prices charged, and yet continue to go into ever increasing debt which has affected their credit ratings on Wall Street. Last I read, the Power Exchange was requiring cold hard CASH for the utilites to purchase power, no longer accepting credit. So what has caused this godawful crisis? A number of reasons...no new power plants were built in the 1990's due to the recession here and for environmental reasons. California's population continues to grow increasing demand, the rise of computer use and manufacturing in our state increased elecricity demand, the small power providers that went belly up that were supposed to provide "free market" costs, artificially increased prices from the big out of state power producers who bought the plants from the utilities and of which there is evidence of "collusion" in driving up the power prices by taking plants offline for "emergency unscheduled maintenance", and threatening "blackouts". These power companies many of which, by the way, reported profits earnings of over %300 increase last quarter, most of it coming from California's electricity crisis.
No one is asking for YOU to pay our power bills, HCQ, but power deregulation in California has failed miserably and we in this state, are in a major crisis. Access to power is a neccesity, not a luxury, and it's not that people are unwilling to pay for this power, just that it has to be within their means to pay for it simply to live. And as the situation degenerated each day, the poor, the elderly, mom & pop businesses, big businesses, the middle class consumer like me, all will suffer.
posted on December 26, 2000 01:17:43 PM new
HCQ: Sorry, but your information isn't correct. As KatyD has said, that $8B is not the result of previous regulation of the utilities. It is the result of the current deregulation fiasco.
Also, before deregulation one of the most frequent complaints to the agencies involved in regulation was the high price of electricity in CA compared to other states.
posted on December 27, 2000 05:44:11 AM newthat $8B is not the result of previous regulation of the utilities. It is the result of the current deregulation fiasco.
posted on December 27, 2000 09:47:14 AM new
Hi HCQ. It's not "logic". It's fact. I thought I had explained about the "balancing account" in my post above. For clarification, on Sept 6th, Gov. Davis signed legislation putting a "cap" on what our utility can bill us per kilowatt hour. The difference between this amount (currently 6.5 cents) and the wholesale cost that SDG&E must pay for the kilowatt, goes into one of these "balancing accounts". In essence, it is an account that is accruing the difference between the utility's charge to the consumer and the actual cost that the utility must pay to purchase the electricity. The "shortfall" which is now roughly $8B, is the difference between these two amounts. At the present, the consumer will be responsible for paying this diffenced in two years, assuming that this mess can't be sorted out by then. The $8B figure is not just the amount in the balancing account accrued by SDG&E..it includes the difference for the rest of the state utilities who were capped at charging $250/megawatt hour. Recently, the price per megawatt hour on the California Power Exchange (which was the "wholesale market" entity created by the deregulation legislation) ballooned to $1500/megawatt hr. The out of state power companies who purchase the utilities power plants under the deregulation law, have been shown to be charging 800-900% of the actual cost of the electricity supply, thus the inflated profits for the last quarter. This is the "supply and demand" part of deregulation that is broken. There is no competition from smaller power providers to allow for competition in the market place as figured into the original blueprint for the deregulation model. Without this competition, the state is essentially at the mercy of a power cartel, made up of out of state power companies (see my post above) who have essentially colluded to keep electricity costs artifically high in order to inflate their own profits at the state's expense. California has the highest electricity costs in the nation, and the residents of this state simply cannot afford the bill, the the $8B in the "balancing accounts". But this figure is not an amount that has accrued through "years of artificially depressed electricity prices through regulation". This amount has only accrued in the last 4 months or so. That should give you an idea of how the concept and implementation of power deregulation in California is broken, and some say irrepairably so.
posted on December 27, 2000 11:24:14 AM new
HCQ: Not a matter of logic or opinion. You're evidently assuming the oft quoted $8B is at least in part a carryover amount from before deregulation. It just isn't. The utilities don't say it is either.
Under deregulation these utilites have to sell off their generation so now they have to buy electricity at market prices. As KatyD indicated the theoretical assumption behind deregulation was that competition in the market would keep the electricity wholesale prices reasonable but that's not what happened.
So the $8B are postderegulation shortfalls resulting from having to buy electricity at increasingly exorbitant prices on an "open" market and not being able to pass on these outrageous costs to their customers.
Lots of info out there on this subject.
Added note: I've been admonished by a energy specialist buddy not to say "deregulation." "Restructuring" is the proper amd more accurate term. Also, while some of these utilities (such as PG&E I believe) are still generating electricity and then, as required by law, turning it over for sale to the market and making big bucks at the inflated prices, these profits by law cannot be used to offset the distribution costs shortfalls. Got a nice half hour lecture and a headache. eek.
[ edited by siggy on Dec 27, 2000 06:59 PM ]
posted on December 27, 2000 01:36:11 PM new
From a practical view what do you do if you can not afford power? I have electric range cooking and I could not switch to natural gas. It is not available in my building. I could cook om a camp stove and on a charcoal grill outside. For light we have battery flouresents we take camping and I should be able to rig some solar cells to charge batteries during the day. There is just no way I can generate enough power to run air conditioning in the summer.
posted on December 27, 2000 03:37:43 PM new
You know what gets me most about the natural gas price increase is that we have lived in our home 12 years now and there has always been a gas leak in our back yard.I call,they come and dig a little (maybe just to shut me up)and it still leaks.They even said once "why are you worried,your not paying for it."Well it seems to me that if they can waste that much gas in one back yard,they cannot justify the "gas shortage".To my way of thinking I am paying for it with higher gas costs.
posted on December 27, 2000 05:04:05 PM new
If you can't afford electricity you conserve as much as possible and prioritize your discretionary spending. Utilities have plans for low income customers but that doesn't answer the issue for others who aren't in that group who are or will be hit.
But the issues raised in the wake of the "restructured" market are not just costs but also reliability: ie, will the lights go on and stay on. People who rely on machines to stay alive and electricity to run them asked their utilities what to do in case of a blackout. They were told "Call 911." Well unless you have a back up generator there's not much else to do, really.
Alt. energy sources: my muni utility has deals for installing residential solar: you generate, save money and they get your excess electricity. Thing is, you're still attached to the grid and if there are rolling blackouts you'll still be down, regardless.
Looney: Your gas company seems amazingly laid back about natural gas leaks. I'd be concerned less about costs or waste than getting blown to kingdom come due to a gas leak.
posted on December 27, 2000 05:44:56 PM new
Our highest gas bill (I live in PA)last winter was $130. We got our gas bill last week and it was $160 BUT we bought a keroscene heater and use it constantly. It is cheaper for us to use that than to pay to run our gas furnace which kicks on every minute!
My sister's bill last year was $120. She got her current bill and it was $260. We are not alone it seems. I thought it was just PA but I guess its all over. Unbelieveable! And yes, what will the bills look like for January and February? It has been damn cold here this month, I am definitely worried about the next couple of months.
posted on December 28, 2000 01:38:12 PM new
I happen to work in the electric and natural gas utility industry and its just frightening. Some of the customer we deal with are VERY fortunate. They got their natural gas prices locked in back in May/June at one price that is fixed for the next 12 months.. so while everyone else is paying 90 cents per therm, they are paying 55-65 cents per therm (don't recall the exact #).
The electric situation is also fascinating. To see a company selling for say, $50/MWH and turning around and selling that same MWH for $1000 or more is HUGE profits...
Its because these companies are being forced to pay $1000/MWH and are only allowed to charge, say $20/MWH (# for example only) that they've gotten so far in debt.
Deregulation...coming to your neighborhood soon. 
And then make up excuses as to why the power plants are taken offline due to "emergency unscheduled maintenance", adding to so-called "shortage". 
on to the consumer. Unfortunately, it didn't work this way. The "small power businesses" found that they couldn't find sources of cheaper electricity to offer consumers and quickly went belly up. The power plants owned by our utilities in our county were bought by large out of state power companies, such as Enron, Dynergy, Sempra, Duke Energy, etc. The cost per megawatt hour of electricity recently soared to $1500 up from about $50 last June, and from a couple of dollars a year ago. It has been capped at $250 temporarily until this mess is sorted out. The difference in price goes into a "balancing account". And this difference is the difference between what the utilities are "paying" and what they are "charging" to the consumer. Our county was the first to deregulate in the state,in other words, our utility (SDG & E)no longer owns any power producing plants, and the other state utilities are set to follow in 2001, PG&E (No. California) and Edison (LA). This "balancing account" is set to come due in two years. No one has come up with a definitive answer of who is going to be responsible for it, but right now, it is the consumer. It will grow as the other utilites deregulate and sell of their electricity producing plants under the deregulatiion law. The other California counties have seen what has happened to San Diego and the gigantic increase of electricity costs since deregulation, and everyone is scrambling to come up with an answer to solve a problem that basically will plunge California into an economic depression the likes that have never been seen. This affects more than the residential consumer, it affects business too. In our county, companies went out of business, relocated out of state and raised prices astronomically because of their power bills. We're talking about restaurants, dry cleaners, bakeries, grocery stores, retail stores, manufacturing plants, and our big industry here, biotech. Many consumers simply couldn't pay their electric bills, and SDG&E at one point even promised not to shut off power for non-payment. It was a MAJOR crisis until a cap was put on for electricity consumers retroactive to last June, because people couldn't pay their bills!. The difference in this "cap" goes into that "balancing account". Because of this utilities (power providers NOT SUPPLIERS) are in a quandary. They must continue to pay the inflated electricity prices charged, and yet continue to go into ever increasing debt which has affected their credit ratings on Wall Street. Last I read, the Power Exchange was requiring cold hard CASH for the utilites to purchase power, no longer accepting credit. So what has caused this godawful crisis? A number of reasons...no new power plants were built in the 1990's due to the recession here and for environmental reasons. California's population continues to grow increasing demand, the rise of computer use and manufacturing in our state increased elecricity demand, the small power providers that went belly up that were supposed to provide "free market" costs, artificially increased prices from the big out of state power producers who bought the plants from the utilities and of which there is evidence of "collusion" in driving up the power prices by taking plants offline for "emergency unscheduled maintenance", and threatening "blackouts". These power companies many of which, by the way, reported profits earnings of over %300 increase last quarter, most of it coming from California's electricity crisis.