posted on March 16, 2001 05:46:25 PM
Here ya go Borillar, flame away. I am ready for it.
Rules for Democrats:
#1 No matter what those scum sucking Clinton's do they are still the greatest thing that ever happened to the US.
#2 Hand out the cash, until the government is broke, on Welfare, Food Stamps and other "social aid" programs.
#3 Show your children, by your example, that their is nothing wrong with premarital sex, adultery, and abortion (murder).
#4 It is okay for Federal funds to pay for "art" exhibits that feature human waste.
#5 It is our duty to take care of the worthless masses that will not hold a job and take care of themselves for the rest of their lives.
#6 It is fine to murder an unborn child, after all, us women must have that CHOICE, but we should protest, and wail and weep about that Godless child killer/murderer/rapist/ who is a few days from his execution date.
#7 We must believe that even though the recession started while Clinton was still in office that it is all Bush's fault.
#8 You believe that even though the Bible states that homosexualality is an abomination that we should allow them to get married and have children.
#9 You know of the 10 commandments, but yet, you feel that surely it does not mean that it applies to you.
#10 You believe that we should fork out the funds for AIDS research and make it our top priority even though there is 20 other diseases that have a much higher death rate.
I shudder about the people who don't shudder at all.
posted on March 16, 2001 05:54:51 PM
I only made this to demonstrate how quick people are to pigeonhole someone else who does not have the same beliefs they do. For the record, I think the NRA sucks, there should be many more gun laws than there are, Social Security is something that should be phased out, that is what IRA's, 401K's, and CD's are for. I think that homosexualality is a sin, but I have an uncle who is gay so I no longer feel the same about them as I used to. Growing up black only limits your opportunities if you let it. There are several statements on the Republican list,about half of them that I feel the opposite about. I believe in strong moral behavior and God. I don't mind being flamed for that, there are worse things in life than that.
I shudder about the people who don't shudder at all.
posted on March 16, 2001 08:50:03 PM
Thank you snowydays for being so kind.
I am curently partying and should not post anything (Friday Nite). I'll get back to this tomorrow where it deserves a good answer.
p.s. I agree with your remark that not all republicans are so sterotyped: I just want to say that neither are progressives or liberals, and some things are patently wrong. But, onto tomorrow!
posted on March 17, 2001 05:12:26 PM"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
- George Santayana (1863-1952), U.S. philosopher, poet. -
This is the failing in the beliefs held by conservatives and republicans in general. They pride themselves in "long-held" notions while refusing to learn from historical mistakes. The democratic platform is based upon the belief that since many long-held notions are the cause of misery and mischief, that they are left to try new ways to approach old problems. And while this may create new problems, it certainly is far less severe than the ills that get fixed. It is in this light that I wish to go over your list and show you what I mean:
#1 No matter what those scum sucking Clinton's do they are still the greatest thing that ever happened to the US.
This accusation really does define the heart of differences between conservatives and liberals. When one of our own is in danger, injured, or needs protecting, we close ranks and defend the so-injured person. We work more along the lines of the Japanese saying,"Fix the problem - Not the Blame". We realize that people are human, and while few would actually support Clinton's failings as a virtue, most would not fault him for it. And certainly since it did not affect the running of the country, it was concidered a private matter not appropriate for public discussion.
Compare that to conservatives. First, no one is allowed to be human. And if a plan fails or an error occurs, the first thing that conservatives/republicans do is go around trying to find the person to blame it all on. Once the "guilty" person is found, then they ceremoniously have their heads lopped off - they become persona non-gratia. For instance, Col. Oliver North stood forth as the ceremonial sacrifgicial lamb for the slaughter - the lightning rod for Blame. And look what they did to Newt Gingrich when the republicans lost seats when they expected to gain them. The conservatives expected democrats to do the same thing: to make a "sacrifice" to appease the people with Clinton, and then, when democrats rushed to support one of our own and closed ranks to protect him as best they could, conservatives couldn't understand this tactic.
HISTORICALLY - Which is Better?
Suppose that you are a solider in combat and you are assigned a partner to help you out in your foxhole - just the two of you against enemy fire. Would you rather have a Democrat there with you or a Republican?
#2 Hand out the cash, until the government is broke, on Welfare, Food Stamps and other "social aid" programs.
The first mistaken belief of conservatives is if we dissolved all of these agencies, everyone would have more money in their pockets. The truth of the matter is that these are fixes for social problems that you would end up paying a whole lot more for if these programs were not in place. Crime is one of the worst of the social ills and its sources are many and certainly, no one approach will fix everything. But you just can't lock everyone up. Imprisonment and punishment is not an effective crime deterrent. It's estimated from 88% to 92% of released prisoners re-offend. That means that we are torturing people for no reason - a very sick and sadistic society -- aren't we?
But the Helping Hand of Democratic policy is not solely in giving money away: it is an about free education, leveling the playing field so that anyone can compete and have a chance to pull themselves out of the ditch of poverty. You can't learn in school when you haven't eaten for two days. And starving persons who can not be employed or find employment will resort to criminal means to survive.
HISTORICALLY - Which is Better?
Which is cheaper in the cost of money and human suffering? The Democratic approach. It costs nearly twenty times as much cash to solve social ills the conservative way. Finally, the greatness of any civilization or society lies in how the least of their population is cared for. Should we be remembered for being so greedy that many starved to death at our doorsteps and we gluttonously filled up our plates?
#3 Show your children, by your example, that their is nothing wrong with premarital sex, adultery, and abortion (murder).
You lump three separate subjects together here, so I guess you are referring to a difference of opinion on the Morality Question, rather than its separate components. This is where history really comes into. One GIANT LESSON that history teaches us is that you cannot legislate morality. It doesn't work. Even the so-called Puritans used to run off into the woods at night to have affairs and orgies.
The conservative way is to shut-up. SHUT-UP!
The democratic way is to enlighten people through free education of the facts. Certainly, since legislating morality doesn't work (conservative theory). Teaching kids not to get sexual diseases and teenage pregnancies doesn't stop them all, but works a hell of a lot better ALL the time than keeping this information away from them, then which is the wiser choice?
#4 It is okay for Federal funds to pay for "art" exhibits that feature human waste.
Absolutely! But at what point do you call artwork "obscene" is the issue? Yesterday's standard of Decency would preclude a lot of what we find as perfectly acceptable today. There is a legal saying that it is better to set 10 guilty men free than to wrongly convict one innocent man. Are we to condemn all art funding simply because it does not meet today's standards of decency?
HISTORICALLY - Which is Better?
In history, the civilization or society that does not fund the arts is deemed a lot poorer and can be shown as one of the reasons for the downfall of a civilization. Try reading about the connections between public art and social health.
#5 It is our duty to take care of the worthless masses that will not hold a job and take care of themselves for the rest of their lives.
Same answer as number 2.
#6 It is fine to murder an unborn child, after all, us women must have that CHOICE, but we should protest, and wail and weep about that Godless child killer/murderer/rapist/ who is a few days from his execution date.
Funny, Conservatives want all babies born, but won't support them afterwards if the mother can't support it. Conservatives always want abortion re-criminalized, but fail to produce any answer on how to stop abortions. They were never stopped in the past when it was a criminal offence and they won't be again if it is re-criminalized. The Liberal answer is to promote adoption alternatives, sex education and access to contraceptives, not as to encourage sexual promiscuity, but to try to prevent unwanted pregnancies. The Conservative approach historically does not solve any problems: it just wants them swept back into the closet and to have it SHUT UP!
#7 We must believe that even though the recession started while Clinton was still in office that it is all Bush's fault.
Funny, how our "oil allies" never needed the extra oil price increases until the Clinton Economic Boom was sure to doom the republican presidency. Seeing as how the Bush Oil Empire extends into Kuwait and the rest of the region, I'm more inclined to suspect the republicans of rigging this economic recession in order to win the election. I base this on the fact that six months after Ronald Reagan became president, the GOP admitted that they had bribed Iran to keep holding onto our embassy hostages long after they were willing to cough them up in an effort to make Jimmy Carter look bad (which it did).
#8 You believe that even though the Bible states that homosexuality is an abomination that we should allow them to get married and have children.
a·bom·i·na·tion (e-bòm´e-nâ¹shen) noun
1. Abhorrence; disgust.
2. A cause of abhorrence or disgust.
In it's biblical definition, "abomination" refers to sins committed against Jewish Laws. The fact that Leviticus gives a huge amount of laws, most of which are ignored by so-called Christians, shows the depths of hypocrisy that they will go to. Funny how you can pick and choose which of God's Laws it is that you want to follow and which ones (the majority of Leviticus) you'll ignore. Hmm.
You know of the 10 commandments, but yet, you feel that surely it does not mean that it applies to you.
Did you know that the rendering of the commandment interpreted as, "Thou Shalt Not Kill" in the KJV actually is supposed to translate as, "Do Not Commit Murder"? The bible was translated from a long trail of languages and many, many mistakes were made. They now sell directly translated Bibles using the meanings from old times. Too bad conservatives want to take the wrong road and tell themselves that everything is correct in their version of the bible when it can easily be proven that it is not. Try reading a copy and compare it to your English-linage Bible. Fascinating!
#10 You believe that we should fork out the funds for AIDS research and make it our top priority even though there is 20 other diseases that have a much higher death rate.
From what the Center for Disease Control (CDC) has been complaining about, AIDS is under funded compared to how widespread and deadly that it is. Other diseases get an equivalent amount on theirs, but conservatives still think that AIDS is a male homosexual disease. Any tiny amount of education will show you that this notion is false. With all of the access to facts, why conservatives continue to ignore reality is beyond belief.
I thank you once again for posting this and giving me a chance to respond to it. Any other thoughts of yours?
posted on March 17, 2001 07:06:26 PM
Borillar, I have to say that you have posted the best of any of the arguments to anything that I have ever said here. You have not resorted to some of the tactics of the others and that is much appreciated. I am neither a Democrat or a Republican, but I do lean more towards a Conservative point of view.
My main belief is that people should take responsibilty for their own actions. Now days everything is always someone elses fault. Why can someone not take responsibilty for themselves? My parents raised me to believe that no one deserves a handout and you should make your own way in life. I have had hard, hard times. But, through the grace of God and a lot of hard work I made it through. If we could make it through what we did, and it was bad, why can't other people make it without Welfare and Food Stamps. Sure, there are people that need things like that to help them get through, but what we have in this country is people making it a way of life. It is a neverending cycle. People become dependent on Social programs.
As for Clinton, that man was a disgrace. How am I supposed to teach my children that lying and adultery is wrong when the leader of our country is doing all of this. I am sorry, but if the man would lie to his own wife and child, what else is he capable of? Do you really think that Clinton pardoned Rich out of the goodness of his heart? There was Travelgate, Pardongate, Monicagate, the list goes on and on. I am not nec. a Bush supporter, but the man does deserve a chance, if he has major screwups like Clinton did I will feel the same about him.
I find it funny that just because us conservatives wish there was no such thing as abortion that we are accused of having all kinds of hidden agendas. I think abortion is wrong, you are taking a life. I have said repeatedly that abortion is here to stay, I can accept that. I am not out there protesting at abortion clinics, I would never do such a thing. What is the answer? I don't know to tell you the truth. I wish people would learn that sleeping around doesn't get you anywhere, I have had many friends in this position, if they are any indication of what the rest of the woman in the country are doing, it is very sad. I don't understand the rationale of those who believe in Partial Birth abortion. I want people to sue birth control, I want sex education taught at the earliest age possible, I want condoms handed out by the bucketfulls. You are not swaying me with that arguement because I already believe that.
I don't have a Bible here with me, it states something like: Man shall not lie with man, it is an abomination. Maybe its meaning has been corrupted over the years, I don't know. Where I live there is a huge sect of The Church of the First Born. They let their children die and refuse to see doctors because they found a line somewhere in the Bible that says something to the effect, "Do not put your life in the hands of another." I try and live a moral life, I am kind to others, I will help anyone that asks, I am faithful to my husband, a good mother to my children. I see a basic breakdown of morals in our society today. What is so hard about that for others? I don't think you will be able to change anyone's mind when it comes to their religion, and certainly not mine. I am not fanatical about my religion, and I certainly do not know what to think about Homosexuality except for to me, it is wrong.
AIDS. How many people do you think would be in that position if they used a little sense? I know many people with AIDS, they should have been a little more careful. Amazing how a disease gets all the funds and publicity when someone famous makes it their pet cause. What about breast cancer? Women are dying left and right from that, many more than what are dying from AIDs.
If people want to pay to see crap, well then, more power to them. I hope to God my money is paying for it somewhere along the line. I don't know many people who would like to see an art exhibit dedicated to human waste. Can you truly tell me that this would be a good use of our tax dollars?
You do paint conservatives with a wide brush Borillar, you have stated your case in a way that makes me respect your opinion though. I am not spell or grammar checking, so if it looks bad, you will have to live with it. Snowy
I shudder about the people who don't shudder at all.
posted on March 17, 2001 08:48:34 PMsnowydays: thank you for you kind words. I am sorry to hear that your upbringing was unkind. To really understand the approach of the liberals and democrats, get out your bible and read Matthew 25:34 - 46. Please note who does the speaking in those lines. Then, please come back here and tell us of your understanding.
posted on March 17, 2001 09:17:51 PM
Borillar, I think you misunderstood my comment. I have excellent parents and they did everything in the world for me. They also have a lot of money, my mom and dad were brought up in the worst of poverty, they made their own way in life, without help from anyone. When I got married 8 years ago we had a really rough first couple of years, add to that 2 children, less than a year a part. No insurance for me when my first child was born because of a screwup at my husband's corporate office. We were $20,000 in debt with hospital bills and another $25,000 in credit cards. We made it though, and we did it alone. If we could anyone can.
I would love to look that up in my bible, but I am moving and most of my things are packed away. Will see if I can find it tommorow. By the way, you do not have anything rebuttal arguments to anything I said? Snowy
I shudder about the people who don't shudder at all.
posted on March 17, 2001 10:49:28 PM
I should repeat myself?
>You do paint conservatives with a wide brush Borillar, you have stated your case in a way that makes me respect your opinion though.
I tell it like it is. I've learned over the years that republicans tend to be under-educated, judging from the ideas that they have about running a society. Conservative ideals and Christian Ideals are two different things: not the same thing, although the GOP would love for you to continue to belive that they are one and the same. The Democratic ideals are based largely upon the teachings of Jesus. If you look at the Republican ideals, you'll see that they are the opposite of the teachings of Jesus. So . . . if Jesus teaches you how to get closer to God, then any ideas that teach you to go AWAY from God has got to come from some other source ... wonder Who that could be from? And then, they try to tell we Jesus lovers how Sinful that we are for not following God like they don't. But we followers of the teachings of Jesus see through the words of deceit because we are educated. We continue to practice Jesus' teachings through the ideals of democracy and the Democratic platform of social equality and the common welfare of our Brothers and Sisters in America.
Is that the rebuttal that you were looking for? Dig out your Bible or go next door to borrow a copy and read the passage that I outlined earlier. It could save your soul.
