posted on June 22, 2001 10:16:23 PM
Even though we didn't agree on the subject of your thread I'd like to apologize for my part in contributing to your thread being locked. In over 2000 post I've never failed to rein myself in before going "over the line"... I'm sorry it happened on your thread.
posted on June 22, 2001 10:26:50 PM
Mixed feelings here myself. Glad it's locked, but still was participating to some degree. I don't think it was your fault mybiddness, or anyone else's. Just a very hot topic concerning different views. JMHO.
posted on June 22, 2001 11:07:55 PM
I think Dateline reads AW. Tonight, they were discussing the same things we were. And the one interviewer asked the same questions that Spaz and I did. That if the mother was capable and sane enough to call AFTER, why didn't she do it BEFORE; why so many children if she was so depressed with PPD, and a few other questions I can't think of right off the top of my head. So it looks like we aren't alone with our thought, Spaz.
posted on June 23, 2001 01:44:02 AM
"That if the mother was capable and sane enough to call AFTER, why didn't she do it BEFORE"-hepburn
Because she wanted them dead, apparently. Calling the police to notify them before a murder that you want to commit is a pretty sure fire way to have your murder plan iced. She was sane enough to realize that.
posted on June 23, 2001 01:54:58 AM
Think nothing of it, mybiddness. To begin with, threads aren't proprietary. Secondly, it's a topic that elicits visceral opinions. Plus I'm rather accustomed to having my threads locked. Always the sign of a good party when the police show up to shut it down.
I saw Dateline tonight. You may be right about them reading AW. Suddenly I feel bad about that "Maria Shriver looks like a skull" thread a couple months ago, lol.
posted on June 23, 2001 08:01:00 AMSpaz Thanks very much for cutting me a break and being so nice about it. I’m sure we’ll learn a lot more about this case and I may even find that my original conclusions were completely off the mark.
Hepburn I realize that we’re miles apart on this issue. I’m afraid I’m pretty grounded in my thoughts —especially when it comes to the effects of psychotic episodes. I think I worked too many cases where Haldol contributed to increasing delusional thinking rather than helping alleviate it… so, that experience has greatly colored my thinking about anyone on that drug—especially when it’s combined with other drugs as well. When Haldol helps a person it’s a night and day difference. But, when the reaction goes the other way it can catapult a person into a whole different world that most of us just can't relate to. I’ll be very interested in seeing where this particular case goes.
Helen Thanks for your compliments and I really appreciate that link as well. There’s a lot that I don’t know about mental health issues. But, the six or so years I worked at the Psychiatric hospital did a lot to open my eyes. I spent much of my time taking the histories of the patients and writing follow-up reports as to their progress for dozens of psychiatrist and mental health professionals. This probably equated to thousands of hours and was a great opportunity to gain understanding not only of the mental health issues of the patients but the recommended treatments as well. It can be a sobering experience when we see what the mind is capable of—and how fragile our own sanity can be— especially when we see that so many of these people (but not all) are absolutely no different than you or I. I wish it weren’t true and that there was some kind of a label that we could put on people to more clearly separate them from us… but any of is able to cross that line at any time without even realizing it. What is the old saying? But for the grace of God…
JL—I didn’t comment on your “sweet little volunteer” remarks because I don’t think a persons value in their work is dependent on whether they’re paid or not. But, on hindsight I realize that it’s apparently very important to you in lending validity to opinions, so I will comment for the record that I was in fact very well paid for my work. I only suggested that you volunteer—and, I still think it would help you to see a different perspective. We got off on the wrong foot with this subject. And, I realize that I crossed the line. Both of us did. But, I strongly believe that there is a huge difference between a person who makes a mistake in judgment or acts out emotionally and ends up in jail, a person who is criminally minded or who is bent toward evil/criminal behavior and a person who through no choice of their own literally has no control or understanding of their actions. We can't paint them all with the same broad brush.
If your leg breaks can you still use it or does the damage change your ability to use it? The same thing applies to a “broken” mind.
posted on June 23, 2001 08:26:25 AM
Hello Mybiddness,
Sorry I didn't get back to you in the other thread. Good to see you, too. Regarding that thread being locked, I think it's a fitting fate for a thread launched to promote blood lust and death wishes, although, to be fair, it seems they've become the accepted alternative to the fluffernutter threads that used to prevail here. And I thought nothing could make those recycled ponderments look good.
Perhaps those who can't understand how severe mental illness affects people (and this woman appears to be have been sick for a long time) can observe how seemingly unsurprised the father is by all this. Monstrous as the woman's actions are, I find Russell Yates' behavior nearly as disturbing in its own right. I was struck by how, very shortly after learning that his wife had drowned all his kids like unwanted kittens, he said he'd pick a toy of each of theirs to remember them by and get rid of all the rest. There is something highly detached about that, about all his reported behavior. From the first, I've felt that Andrea Yates' actions were directed against her husband. She was, IMO, "stopping" something, and not just the hearts of 5 innocents. Once she'd killed them, she delivered herself into the hands of the police--not out of "guilt" but because, IMO, in her mind the police can give her the help she was not getting and was never going to get from those who "loved" her, or her doctors. They can also get her away from what I suspect was, for her, a terminal and toxic relationship. That's why, I think, she's being so cooperative.
I wouldn't find it surprising to learn that she was chronically, severely mentally disturbed, and that her mental imbalance was exacerbated by the PPD and, possibly, the drug cocktails she was given. I'd also think it likely that the depths of her problems were familiar to her husband and his mother, and that their influences upon her--in her state--may have been very negative. Even though Andrea Yates did the killings, images from the movie "The Stepfather" keep coming to mind as I think about this.
Someone in the other thread was asking about villains. I wonder about degrees of villainy--the person who commits the unspeakable act, or those who, in that person's mind, make it impossible for that person to have done anything else.
All that said, this woman killed 5 people. There were doubtless reasons, but there are no excuses. There cannot be excuses for terminally harming anyone--whether it's done by a mother, a father, a stranger, or the state. I don't know where the media circus on this will take things, and can't imagine the outcome of the trial, but I know one thing: We've got to get a lot more enlightened about the problems of mental illness that affect MOST of us at one time or another, and a lot more willing to recognize the frequent failure, or inadequacy, of the much-touted drugs that are supposed to make things better. And we have to be willing to stop pretending that someone we care about who's clearly miserable and in distress is just having a down day--after 1000 similar days--will "snap out of it" at some point.
posted on June 23, 2001 08:48:28 AM
Yes that the episode may be a cry for help in desparation, but we cannot deduce the actual reactions of the husband from a few short blasts of media manipulated coverage. The prospect of facing the nation, or the world, through a field of peering camera eyes without preparation would be daunting in a case of the exhultation of an achievement and much more so in such a situation such as this. It has been mentioned that shock is often exhibited by inappropriate behavior-- at least behavior which may be deemed to be inappropriate to uninvolved parties.
posted on June 23, 2001 09:31:39 AM
I don't know what the movie "The Stepfather" is about (probably about somebody's stepfather?), but what I've been thinking about is "Medea," the classic story of a woman killing her children (as an act of revenge against her husband.) But even though the act is closer to Medea, another Greek tragedy, Ajax, seems to me more analagous - A person struck with madness (in his case, caused by some goddess for some reason I can't remember), who commits horrific acts while insane.
Anyway, as to the husband, you reallly can't know how someone will react. My sister and I were once faced with the same situation at the same moment - as is her nature, she got flustery, and I got methodical. In regular circumstances, she's methodical and I'm disorganized.
Besides that, this guy has probably been living detached for quite a while.
posted on June 23, 2001 10:00:23 AM
I read in this mornings paper that the mother admitted she had been thinking of killing them "for months". Premeditated insanity defense on her part, maybe? She "knew" she was going to do it, but yet, never said what horrible thoughts were going through her head? She was sane enough to know she had PPD and was taking meds for it, but too insane to ask for more help in protecting her children from her own plans, but had a bout of "saneness" to call afterwards but not before? Also, it was said that she drowned the last one in the tub with his sisters body still in it. I can't imagine his terror seeing Mary, and knowing mommy was going to do to HIM what she just did to what was still in there...his sister.
posted on June 23, 2001 10:01:01 AM
Based on what I've seen and read so far, my guess would be that the husband uses denial as a coping mechanism. He's likely not even aware of his seeming emotional detachment. It would also help explain why he was apparently unable to "get" the fact that his wife wasn't mentally capable of being alone with their children.
One of the things that I'm hoping we'll learn is the role of the mental health care professionals in her treatment. If reports are correct and she wasn't under any kind of supervision or treatment program - but, yet was on a variety of mind altering drugs I think the supervising doctor has some tough questions to answer. I hope the state looks at that very closely.
posted on June 23, 2001 10:05:36 AM
AS I have said from the start, there is no doubt in my mind that this woman had some serious issues, and I agree very much with your summations pareau, I don't however feel that that frees someone from the responsibility of their actions. Most murders are committed by someone that just "snapped", and were probably going through much more at the time to cause them to snap like that. But that doesn't make it acceptable. And we shouldn't see them as victims. Before she killed those 5 kids, I believe she was a victim, and needed help, and her husband obviously knew that. That she didn't get the help she needed is a tragedy. That she found it necessary to kill those innocent children for the attention she needed is inexcusable. After she began drowning those kids cool and methodically, she ceased being a victim, and became a monster.
posted on June 23, 2001 10:13:45 AM
Charlie Manson is better now. Let's forgive him and let him out, shall we? After all, he's cured and was insane at the time, so it wasn't really his fault. It was the illness. It was the followers. Oh, I know, it was Sharon Tate's fault.
posted on June 23, 2001 10:14:35 AM
I think most people who are on drugs for psychosis have a very hard time admitting to themselves or to others that they really "need" the drug. In fact, most of the really bizarre cases that I was involved in were people that quit taking the prescribed medications because they wanted to believe that they weren't really ill. Who wants to admit to themselves or anyone else that they have "evil" thoughts or delusions... Most mentally ill people realize on some level that they have a problem. But, they don't always "really get it." Just as her husband and family apparently didn't "really get it."
The bottom line is that you can't expect rational thought processes out of someone who is on as many mind altering drugs as she was on. It's just not going to happen. I'm not saying that what she did wasn't horrifying beyond belief. And, I do hope that she spends the rest of her life under constant supervision. But, I'm not ready to assume that she knew what she was doing. I may find out differently. But, I think having seen the sometimes ill-effects of Haldol on an already psychotic person is what continues to sway my opinion so far. When Haldol works it's a wonder drug. But, when it doesn't it's unbelievable what it can do to the mind. How can a person take mind altering drugs and be expected to follow an exact path of normalcy that anyone else would follow?
posted on June 23, 2001 10:20:05 AM
"It would also help explain why he was apparently unable to "get" the fact that his wife wasn't mentally capable of being alone with their children."-mybidness
Perhaps he thought she was fine with the kids since she watched them day after day after day without drowning them.
posted on June 23, 2001 10:22:15 AM
I know what you are saying, mybiddness. But I don't want her to be "supervised" for the rest of her life with my tax dollars and then be deemed "cured" years down the line and able to join society. Or worse yet, join her husband so they can replace what she "got rid of" in her moment of "insaneness". Her husband needs to be with her, too. They should file charges against him for neglect. What he did was no worse than leaving 5 children locked in a car with its windows rolled up in 120 degree heat. He would KNOW it would kill them, as he KNEW she would kill them in her state of mind. Instead, they just kept shoving more kids out for a larger family.
The more I read about this in the news, the more I think she deliberately killed them to get away from her husband, and I am not alone with these thoughts, either.
posted on June 23, 2001 10:42:32 AM
A news survey/poll conducted by New York's Channel 11 WPIX news asked the following question: "If convicted, should Andrea Yates receive the death penalty?"
posted on June 23, 2001 10:56:05 AM
The problem is we don't have enough information about this particular case to know where all of the responsibilities fall. As I've said, I may find out that this woman, in this particular case knew exactly what she was doing. If it is found that she is mentally ill then I'd much prefer the money be spent on helping her regain a piece of normalcy in her life rather than destroying her further in a jail cell. If they find that she was fully capable of understanding what she was doing - then I'll look at it differently.
My hope in continuing this conversation is that people understand that it is also entirely possible that she was completely dis-associated from and unaware of her actions. Just because you've never experienced it doesn't mean it isn't possible.
You can't put a stamp on depression and draw the lines and say this is what it is and this is how people are going to act when they're depressed. Everyone is different. Especially when their thinking and reasoning abilities are being manipulated by a powerful combination of drugs that include Haldol.
My point is that we don't know yet what happened to this woman - but we do know that psychotic and delusional behavior is real and that when it is found to be a cause for a person's behavior - even something as awful as this - the person can not be held responsible.
For people to assume that garden variety depression or unreasonable emotional outburst can in any way be compared to a psychotic episode is just beyond understanding for me. This isn't a quack theory - it's a legitimate medical condition caused by chemical imbalances in the brain and it happens every single day all across the world.
I'm beginning to realize that this may all be fruitless effort on my part. Mental illness has been and will likely continue to be the silent killer because no one wants to admit that it's possible. After all if it's possible for a loving young mother like Andrea Yates to lose her mind and kill her children then maybe it could happen to anyone.
posted on June 23, 2001 11:04:37 AM99% answered yes. 1% answered no.
Big difference between that poll and the CNN online poll. I question that WPIX poll, a 99% agreement on anything by 10,000 people is hard if not impossible to believe.
posted on June 23, 2001 11:06:32 AM
According to the news, she thought she was a bad mother and the children were developing abnormally. It makes sense to me that she would call the police afterwards to tell them about the bodies, not an indication that she knew it was 'right' or 'wrong'. If she'd known it was wrong, I would think she'd be more apt to try to hide the bodies or run away from the act--not call the police.
If this woman was psychotic, she's not responsible for what she did. She needs treatment, not incarceration.
I liken it to torture. Someone who is severely physically tortured for a long time may do anything to make it stop, even if they have to give up information that will hurt or kill the people they love. That person is not in control of their actions.
This woman has been mentally tortured for two years. She needed help and apparently didn't get it. I, too, will be interested in finding out more about what kind of help she had from the family and doctors, and why more wasn't done to protect the kids.
posted on June 23, 2001 11:28:24 AM
If I was on a jury and asked for a verdict based on the information I've seen there is no doubt in my mind that she was a sick woman. I believe in harsh punishment normally, but it wouldn't take much of a lawyer to convince me that she wasn't in control of her actions.
I know that minds can snap. I spend 40 days in a psychiatric hospital because of depression. While it might have been necessary I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
posted on June 23, 2001 01:28:29 PM
Polls conducted by news agencies are easy to distort. ONE person could place so many votes in the time since the opening of the first thread here to skew the numbers into whatever result that person prefers.
Charles Manson didn't kill anyone, or, he's not in prison for having done so. He conspired to commit mureder, but I think he's innocent and the world has misunderstood him.
posted on June 23, 2001 02:18:52 PM"it's a legitimate medical condition caused by chemical imbalances in the brain and it happens every single day all across the world."-mybidness
Which makes this case all the worse. Not everyday do the people suffering from this drown their 5 children, do they?
"Polls conducted by news agencies are easy to distort."-krs
posted on June 23, 2001 02:50:23 PMJL:I am curious to know whether or not you believe that mental illness exists or if it is just a farce by people trying to get sympathy or whatever?
As I learn more about this story I am starting to think that she is not really mentally ill(Well, you would have to be a little "off" to do what she did). This sounds very premeditated. I thought maybe she just snapped but it sounds like she planned it for awhile. She may have had problems but I think if she was sane enough to call the police afterwards, she could have done it before.
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posted on June 23, 2001 03:17:44 PM
I have made it abundantly clear in my posts that I know menatal illnes to be very real. My point is that it is not necessarily an excuse for behavior like people try to make it. The facts that I am presenting are not being challenged, and yet some just insist out of emotion that she should have special treatment. Millions of people suffer from PPD and don't do this. Millions of people take Haldol and don't do this. Millions of people suffer from depression and don't do this. Millions of woman have oppresive husbands and don't do this. I'm tired of people always trying to make victims out of everybody. The lady drowned her 5 children in a cold and methodical way. We should all feel sorry for her, but know one seems to give a damn about the innocent kids that were murdered by mommy dearest. This is truly a sick society that we are living in.
posted on June 23, 2001 03:53:49 PM
Perhaps it's the constant search for reasons why people do what they do that I am sick of. "She drowned her kids...she must have PPD"; "He killed his neighbor because of the barking dog...he must have had a reason..he was on drugs...he was drunk...he was upset because his mom died..."; "He beat his wife because he was beaten by HIS mother"; "He raped and killed those girls because...."; "She heard a voice telling her to.....".
Everytime something awful happens, the victim is forgotten and insanity is the crutch, or the history of the perpetrator. Just like McVeigh. All the focus was on him as he was approaching his punishment; the sympathies of what his parents and friends were feeling; what he had for his last meal; what his final thoughts are. The victims are forgotten after awhile.
Those children were in a situation they trusted Mommy and Daddy would never let happen to them. I say again, if it was that bad and she was so miserable, WHY WHY WHY did they keep pumping out children? No wonder society is so damn sick of these crimes that always have a reason for the happening. Meanwhile 5 children are dead and didn't get to go very peacefully. Let's all just concentrate on the poor mother who was ill in the head, but kept having kids anyway. Sorry, but I don't think I will ever "get it", nor be swayed by "poor thing, to be that unstable/ill/depressed/abused/" or whatever other name to be applied.
