posted on June 18, 2001 09:44:36 PM new
Why is it that so many people believe that only a co-op can offer what we are all looking for in an auction site. Why can't a for profit site offer even more, and still provide the same things the Co-op's have only promised? Do you believe it is really impossible for a profit site to put the welfare of its members ahead of profits? If so why? We are looking for your thoughts, fears, concerns about this question.
JC
Founding Member
LibertyBid.com
www.libertybid.com
posted on June 19, 2001 04:29:36 AM new
My personal perception is that sellers are tired of having the terms dicatated TO them by the companies that control the auction site, and are tired of being negatively affected by decisions made by these companies that the sellers have no control over.
The co-op format offers some control over the basic selling environment in which a seller conducts the transactions that constitute his or her livelihood.
For example, tomorrow morning we could wake up and find out that your favorite auction site has been sold to someone else. That someone else then proceeds to drastically change the site through new rules or slowly driving away business by no longer advertising the site. (Think Ebay's purchase of Half.com, Ebay stopped advertising which only contributed to the glut of books on the site.)
If it was a co-op, I believe the site could not be sold without a democratic vote of the members agreeing to shut down the site or sell it enmasse to another person. I'm not quite sure how a sale would even work for a co-op but I do know that no one else would make any decisions for YOU. You make your own decisions because you are one of the owners.
And THAT is why the site that promoted itself as a Co-op, and was announced in Krause Super Seller newsletter as a co-op, and is no longer a co-op format, lost my respect when I see the founder continuing to post as if sellers would have the same protection of their livelihood under a non-co-op arrangement.
I can only hope that site will notify Krause Super-Seller newsletter ASAP with a news release that they are no longer a co-op arrangement, and post that news release here.
Fair is fair.
In fact that site will now be nothing more than another new small auction site with two owners just like many others already out there for us to choose from.
What is YOUR ownership arrangment at LibertyBid.com? How many owners do you have and do you plan to have? What is your status with LibertyBid.com? What are the benefits of Libertybid.com compared to any other auction site?
posted on June 19, 2001 05:32:15 AM new
Why start a co-op? It's bound to be a failure since it's near impossible to reach a critical mass necessary to have any real impact. Set up a for profit site that can afford to advertise and caters to sellers as well as buyers instead. I might be off my rocker, but that's my 2 cents.
posted on June 19, 2001 05:40:22 AM new
Enchanted: I can assure you that the site in question did in fact notify Krause and all of the folks on its newsletter, and many other sources. It also did so without ever asking anyone for any money. And it did so in an honest manner way before its membership drive so as to not muddy the waters.
The proof will be in the performance and the product. Perhaps you will change your mind at some point and I am sorry you are sooo disappointed.
Just out of curiosity, what did you do to make the co-op movement go forward (at any site)??
posted on June 19, 2001 05:49:23 AM new
Jamie, since I don't run a site that promoted itself as a co-op, what I've done or not done is pretty much irrelevant to you.
I want a co-op site to join however, and that's why I posted my opinion in response to the poster who started the thread asking posters here for their opinions about co-op's. That's the topic of the thread.
Since you just posted that you notified Krause Super-Seller newsletter that Auctionpie.com is no longer a co-op arrangement, could you please post here the date and text of such notice.
posted on June 19, 2001 06:09:42 AM new
Enchanted: Your attitude is one that is far to prevalent and one of the key reasons we dropped the co-op form.
Co-op Cooperative? That means WE all work for something. Far too many people thought that we at AP were here to perform for you. We weren't. We all worked very hard and still do to create a site for all sellers.
Now not only are you plunking blame on me but you are also suggesting that I am a liar?? If you want to confirm what I've said feel free to contact Dennis Thornton at Krause.
If you want to not use our service that's your choice. If you want to villify me for simply being honest with you and others that's your choice too. I will always prefer to go the honest and upfront route.
Nobody's perfect but some of the comments we've recieved are totally uncalled for. I have very thick skin but some others here at AP don't and to hurt those who have tried to work for your and all our behalf's is unfair and uncalled for.
posted on June 19, 2001 06:57:27 AM new
Jamie, I merely asked this question:
Since you just posted that you notified Krause Super-Seller newsletter that Auctionpie.com is no longer a co-op arrangement, could you please post here the date and text of such notice. Thank you.
I think it's a reasonable request.
Am I reading your post previous to this one that you will not answer it by posting the date and text of the notice, which I am guessing is readily available to you?
I believe I am allowed to post any reasonable comments about the co-op movement, or any reasonable questions that I have, without being referred to as being "one of the key reasons we dropped the co-op forum". That seems slightly unbelievable to me as this is the first time we have interacted.
There's an old customer service concept that states that one of the best sources of information you can get on how to improve your business is from the negative comments or complaints freely offered to you by customers and potential customers.
I am a potential customer of any auction site, co-op or non-co-op, and to be told in our first online interaction that I am one of the key reasons you aren't a co-op anymore is simply not the way I wish to be treated by people I will potentially be giving money too. If I want to my ideas to be dismissed out of hand and arbitrary decisions by the corporate owner, I can stick with Ebay for that.
As far as *my* background, Jamie, I've been selling online for over three years both auction and fixed-price sites. Our online ventures consist of those sales and one functioning website plus another in development. In addition, I have fifteen years experience as a paralegal and am very well aware of the differences between a corporation, both publicly traded and privately owned, S-corps, LLC's, sole proprietorships and partnerships.
My husband and I consider ourselves to be 'serial entrepreneurs'. We enjoy starting and running small businesses and the online ventures are simply the culmination and end results of other ventures. At various times we have incorporated our businesses, tried to bring several companies public, and have also worked as sole proprietors, an S-corp and have considered forming an LLC.
I consider it financially prudent of me to ask many questions before investing money (which includes paying fees) in any venture and to ponder that decision for however long I need to do that in order to feel I've made the right decision for myself. That could be a quick decision but often it is not. Often I choose to investigate my alternatives for some time before making a decision which organization to go with. Quite frankly some of the attitudes you express in a first encounter would be considered a danger signal or red flag for the investment of my further time or any of my funds. These attitudes of financial prudence are quite often recommended by highly respected investment guides and professionals. You will find a natural inclination to ask questions and investigate amongst many small entrepreneurs ( who may have previously lost their shirt in other ventures because they trusted someone's words and not the facts).
My suggestion is that if someone asks you for facts that the SEC doesn't prevent you from giving out, that it might be a good idea to disclose as much as you feel comfortable personally with disclosing.
Perhaps contrary to some of your assumptions, I am willing to pay an entrance fee to a co-op and also feel it is probably necessary to have some fee to help fund a viable organization. However, BEFORE I pay any money, I will always check out who the organization is, what their goals are, basically all the facts. I will also observe how they handle requests for information as a predictive guide to future interactions with that company.
For example I am the one who originally pointed out elsewhere that there is a currently functioning booksellers co-op called TomFolio, as a response to some sellers' stated worry that a co-op could not or would not ever be successful, as it had not been done before. I may join TomFolio, I may not. I'm still thinking about it. I don't let TomFolio tell me how long to think about it or what questions to ask, and I wouldn't let an auction co-op organization tell me that either how long to take. In addition if they insult me for thinking it over, they can and would lose my respect.
posted on June 19, 2001 07:04:29 AM new
Going back to the original question and topic posed by the person who opened this thread, I am hoping that these questions will be answered;
What is YOUR ownership arrangment at LibertyBid.com? How many owners do you have and do you plan to have? What is your status with LibertyBid.com? What are the benefits of Libertybid.com compared to any other auction site? What are the goals of your site?
I apologize for taking this thread off topic. I don't even know if LibertyBid.com is a co-op or not.
[ edited by enchanted on Jun 19, 2001 07:09 AM ]
"My personal perception is that sellers are tired of having the terms dictated TO them"
Without a doubt that is probably one of the most important problems with greed run auction sites. What if the By-Laws, Articles, and User Agreement of the Corporation REQUIRES that decisions that affect the member, i.e. what you can sell, how you can advertise, what you can link to, how you can contact customers, etc., has to be put to a vote of the Active Members affected by any change of the auction site and what majority says goes ---- would that elevate some of your fears?
"For example, tomorrow morning we could wake up and find out that your favorite auction site has been sold to someone else"
Included in the corporate articles is a clause that No one person or organization can have majority rule of the organization -- and also stated in the charter is the fact that while ownership may change - the direction and agreements with its members has to be maintained, and the site can not be closed and re opened under a new name to get around these rules.
"What is YOUR ownership arrangement at LibertyBid.com? How many owners do you have and do you plan to have? What is your status with LibertyBid.com? What are the benefits of Libertybid.com compared to any other auction site?"
We are still in the development stage, and trying to perfect all aspects of LibertyBid - this is the main reason for the questions here. We currently have owners who each bring a specific strength to LB. We are all equal owners, but as I have said, we are still in the development stage and are looking for additional partners to fill rolls that need to be filled. Currently there are 3 owners - we are looking to add about 2 more. I am development and communications, as well as a jack of all trades. We don't have specific titles - we are still developing and defining our rolls. But we are a group that have a contract between us, which includes an agreement to fight hard for our ideas -- but to accept the decision of the majority, without hard feelings. Egos have no place here!
"What are the goals of your site?"
The goals of LibertyBid is to provide the auction community with a very unique auction format, auction management software, auction aids, a cooperative auction search, discount web sites, freedom for both seller and buyer, and many other features that can be read about on our auction pages.
We want to build a site that will use the profits provided by our active members to grow and continue to add additional features for our members.
We also want the site to provide enough profit to pay us for the 40 - 60+ hours a week we are putting into the site so that we don't have to keep working several jobs to keep the site up and running. We also hope that the site will eventually become popular enough to enlist thousands or even millions of members, so that we can have the power to develop custom software designed to make our member's lives easier and happier. All of these services and hopefully many more will be provided free to the Active members who will be required to pay a fee, which at this time we estimate to be $1 a month.
I believe that when we get enough members who want freedom to sell what and how they want (provided it is legal to sell) we can generate sufficient income to develop all the features that we are all looking for -- until such time that we have enough members to generate enough income to begin the development -- we will not ask for the monthly dues. But once the level of membership is reached, development of needed software and services will come very quickly.
While LibertyBid is a privately owned site - we do need the cooperative help of our members, because it is you the sellers and buyers that will make or break LibertyBid. LibertyBid will grow - with support - we will become the alternative that we are all looking for.
JC
Founding Member
LibertyBid.com
www.libertybid.com
[ edited by landofthings on Jun 19, 2001 08:37 AM ]
[ edited by landofthings on Jun 19, 2001 08:38 AM ]
I have read "Animal Farm", as well as many other books including "Fahrenheit 451" by Ray Bradbury -- and consider myself more like the "Book People" than a Greed and Power controlled animal! I still believe that there are people that want to take control of their lives and given the opportunity, will take the chance and help develop something that can benefit all of us.
JC
Founding Member
LibertyBid.com
www.libertybid.com
posted on June 19, 2001 09:04:40 AM new
thanks for the info JC. I will think about some of the points that you raised before responding in detail.
One initial question that I have, after reading your description, is, what is unique about your proposed auction site other than charging members a monthly fee and proposing to run certain changes past a membership vote?
Are there other characteristics that would make this "unique"?
Also another initial impression is that I doubt legally you could structure a corporation (whether public, private, or S-Corp) or an LLC to actually prevent the sale of shares, whether controlling interest or not, if the Active Members approved or not. Something about restraint of trade issues comes to mind.
The best you might be able to do is offer 'rights of first refusal' in certain circumstances to the remaining shareholders if one or more shareholders wanted to sell.
Also about this same comment:
What if the By-Laws, Articles, and User Agreement of the Corporation REQUIRES that decisions that affect the member, i.e. what you can sell, how you can advertise, what you can link to, how you can contact customers, etc., has to be put to a vote of the Active Members affected by any change of the Auction site and what majority says goes ---- would that elevate some of your fears?
This type of principle in running a legal entity seems better suited to a trust type organization which is run for the benefit of its beneficiaries. Is that what you are proposing, or are you proposing a for-profit corporation? For profit corporations have a fiduciary duty to be run for the benefit of the shareholders, which would presumably not be the same group as the thousands of sellers you are looking for.
I wonder if there's any provisions in the Internal Revenue Code which would prevent a VEBA from conducting an auction business under 501(c)(9) of the Code? I'm assuming your proposed business is subject to US tax laws by asking that question.
Also, may I ask if you meant to say "alleviate" rather than "elevate" my fears, as elevate would have the opposite meaning.
posted on June 19, 2001 10:08:49 AM new
Q: My personal perception is that sellers are tired of having the terms dicatated TO them by the companies that control the auction site, and are tired of being negatively affected by decisions made by these companies that the sellers have no control over.
A: Your attitude is one that is far to prevalent and one of the key reasons we dropped the co-op form.
AuctionPie will be no different than any other auction site. They're running FOR THEIR OWN profit and that is the bottom line, not all the flowery promises about how THIS auction site will be DIFFERENT because they LISTEN TO THEIR CUSTOMERS.
Anyone who questions AP policy is attacked, criticized and publicly humiliated. Can there be any doubt as to how affairs will be handled privately by AP customer support? I wouldn't trust Auctionpie to walk my dog, much less run a business.
As for Shaz' insistance that her mailing list is "opt-in/opt-out," she apparently has no concept of privacy or respect. People signed up for information on a co-op, and now that information is being used to spam them for money from a commercial site. You might as well sell those names to www.triple-xxx.com because they have as much to do with a co-op as Auctionpie.
posted on June 19, 2001 10:17:35 AM new
Sites need to generate revenue in order to be able to pay expenses and advertise to bring in the all important buyers. Otherwise they're no different than Bidville or ePier which can't afford to advertise and therefore have no critical mass of buyers, and likely never will.
I see nothing wrong with a For Profit site as long as it's considerate and accomodative to the viewpoints of sellers as well as buyers. For Profits are the only ones that will survive for any length of time IMO.
posted on June 19, 2001 10:23:30 AM new
JC, in "Animal Farm" the collective started out with the best of intentions. Little by little, the principles were chipped away by the pigs, who set themselves up as "governors" of the co-op. The pigs took it upon themselves to decide what was best for the rest. In the end, the Animal Farm co-op was worse than when it began. It's human nature to take advantage of others. That's why the bylaws need to be in place before you begin, with only the membership able to make changes. The philosophy is built into the charter and can not be amended by anyone including the membership.
The "benign monarch," especially in business, is a fantasy. If you are the one who stands to profit, there is no way you can make unbiased decisions. You may find organizing a co-op difficult, but ask yourself this: Would you organize and administer LibertyBid if you didn't stand to make a profit from it? Would you do it for free? That way you can tell where your priorities really are.
posted on June 19, 2001 10:29:25 AM new
WHY IS A CO-OP THE ONLY WAY?
I think it is because it is the way for sellers to have control of their retail venue's basic fees, selling standards and usage structure by the legal, social and moral standards of the true Cooperative.
The American Revolution started because of Taxation Without Representation. The online movement away from eBay- the glutted, fee imposing, juggernaught -is fueled by the same feelings. Some are turning to smaller auction sites like Bidville, Popula or Epier. Some are trying niche auction sites like JustBeads or JustGlass.These sites are free today but like Enchanted pointed out--what about tomorrow morning?
Self-determination and stability. Co-op member/owners control their basic selling enviroment with their share vote. It is a democratic process by a cooperatives legal definition. Cooperative Bylaws include this vote and in my opinion should state what particular items can be changed only by membership vote- for example, fees.
"what is unique about your proposed auction site other than charging members a monthly fee and proposing to run certain changes past a membership vote?"
While I am not ready to explain the exact workings of the auction software yet, I will give you a few points that can be said. First our auction will work pretty much in the same manner other auctions work, but the actual mechanics of listing and searching for the auction will be totally different. Sellers have total control of their auction - not LibertyBid.
Our auctions will include choice auctions, provided strict rules are adheared to. Our rules will be created by our members -- and they will be strictly enforced, in a fair and impartial method. While we want this auction to be for anyone -- we will weed out those that cheat and rob our members. All sellers and buyers will have to provide positive proof of their identity before they are allowed to bid or sell. This information will be kept on a secure and separate system, not available for Internet connection.
Our feed back rating will also be different - negative will have to go though a waiting period - much like the FVF's have to on eBay. We will try our best to help solve problems - but that help will be directly controlled by our executive members. There are many more features but they will have to wait till later to discuss.
As for the structure of the corporation - we will seek legal help in order to make what we want binding, and a trust might be the way we have to go.
We do not plan to list LibertyBid on the stock market -- we plan to keep it private in order to maintain control and prevent a take over by some greedy business or person. And while our members won't actually own stock in the business -- they will determine much of what LibertyBid does.
And yes - alleviate is what I meant, sorry, you just can't trust the spell checkers.
twinsoft
"That's why the bylaws need to be in place before you begin, with only the membership able to make changes."
This is exactly what we are trying to do -- and that is the reason we are asking the questions, in order to create By-Laws that all or the majority will agree to.
As for my willingness to do it for free -- I haven't been paid so far, I have only spent - but not being independently wealthy, No I couldn't afford to put in 40-60 hours a week for free -- could you? And not many people could - that is one problem a co-op has to be overcome.
labelle
Yes a co-op working in perfect harmony is a great thing -- and one that I would love to see happen. BUT no matter what form your business takes - it requires profits to keep that business going. If your a co-op, or a for-profit site, profits insure your ability to grow and continue to provide more and better services for your members. Profits provide the means to hire qualified help to run and develop the site. Help to answer the questions asked, and create the services your members require. Even non-profit organizations, must make a profit, otherwise they can't continue to exist.
But more important than the profit -- is the business minds that directs the organization well enough to make these profits. That business mind can be of two types. One driven only by greed, who's primary goal is Profits, Profits and even more Profits, as in the case of eBay. Or, it can be a mind that believes that everyone is entitled to profits, and that these profits can be made by everyone without having to bled its members dry in order to achieve them!
I have belonged to three real world co-op in my lifetime, two food co-ops and a Discount Product co-op. All of these co-ops went under because of member votes that actually resulted in the co-ops bankruptcy. With the first food co-op, the cost of the storefront went up, and instead of the membership opting for the added funds to pay the extra rent, which only amounted to an additional $3 a month - they decided to find a cheaper place to house the co-op. The result was a place that was less accessible and in a neighborhood that many members didn't like going to -- eventually membership dropped off and the co-op went under. The same thing happened with the second food co-op as well - and even with the knowledge of the fate of the first co-op, the membership still voted to relocate into an area that lost us members. The Discount Products co-op went the exact opposite of the food co-op. They opted to put the store in an area that cost way to much money - and again bankrupted the group.
Greed is not restricted to the corporations alone - people also will opt not pay the extra buck it takes to keep an organization going, or to improve it. I can only speak for my self when it comes to LibertyBid - but I feel that a seller supported privately owned site can make money for everyone - and greed doesn't have to enter into the equation. I don't need millions or billions to live like I want to - Only a sure income so that I can continue to do the thing I love -- auctions.
JC
Founding Member
LibertyBid.com
www.libertybid.com
posted on June 19, 2001 11:43:40 AM new
This is like a co-op hot tub!!
This is fun. Now I get to poke holes in others opinions and arguements!
Cathy: "The American Revolution started because of Taxation Without Representation. " That's true, but only because they worked as a unit instead of "niche" States did they succeed.
"Self-determination and stability. "
Some would say that Ebay is the stable company. They've been around awhile and as long as you don't mind increasing fees, spam, and not being able to communicate freely with your bidders you have complete stability, except for when they're down.....
Got news for all of you. Bylaws are not an absolute safety catch. Any good laywer can work around them for or against. And it costs money to enforce them too. Look at all of the slanderous comments on this board. Ever see anyone prosecuted??
The proof will be in the product and performance.
JC: Well, someone has to be the managing partner or president of any corporation. Apparently the legal system has to have someone to hang for when a crime is commited! There are also alot of tax issues involved.
All being said I think we should all lower the rhetoric and urgency to this. (Yes that includes me and no, I'm not suggesting anyone else by name or accusing anyone!)
We're all working on projects and it should be interesting to see what happens.
I'd say something mushy like perhaps we'll somehow find a way for all of us to work together but I'm far too much of a villain on these boards to do so! It's kind of cool. I may start to wear black, although it is hot out....
At least we almost all agree about Twinny!
It'd make for a great convention though wouldn't it?
posted on June 19, 2001 11:52:50 AM new
Btw, at the risk of getting things thrown at me I was just rereading this thread and it was really neat that all of you started in my group!
Some stayed longer, some less and most of you have taken bits and pieces from my work too.
Even if AP never gets off the ground and some of you do I'll still feel like I accomplished something.
JC has now been a part of 4 co-op groups, Cat is about to enter her third. It makes me feel good about AP's direction.
posted on June 19, 2001 01:25:41 PM new
Before I go out and mow the lawn....
Jaimie- I did want to point out that I have the commitment to continue working on the vintcoop from -I think 14 now of the 27 or so volunteers. With one person disgusted and declining and the rest not heard from. So are we the VMC without a site? or a new group? Well we're the same workers- same ideas anyway.
eSeller004- I recognise that revenue is needed to build and promote a quality site. No money-No promotion-No buyers. I asked you on another thread if you had any suggestions yourself for promoting a site-- Do you? You've been doing one heck of a marketing survey here on AW-- what have you found that might help? Trust me when I tell you -we are listening!
Twinsoft- No coop will ever work in perfect harmony. Too bad. But by becoming a cooperative corporation agreeing to a democratic principle and by having structure within through bylaws and TOS- we can live as happily as anyone can in any family. You have the loud, the happy, the workers , the complainers, the snoops, the old and the young-- but when push comes to shove-- they are family and have a basic unity.
Landofthings- Co-op doesn't mean no profit. It can mean all monies are plowed back into the business so there is a breaking even built in to the business. It can also mean monies in excess of budget are returned to the shareholders according to site usage. This is decided by members.
posted on June 19, 2001 03:40:24 PM new
labelle said:
"Landofthings- Co-op doesn't mean no profit. It can mean all monies are plowed back into the business so there is a breaking even built in to the business. It can also mean monies in excess of budget are returned to the shareholders according to site usage. This is decided by members."
Cathy, I couldn't agree with you more, and it just goes to show my point. A co-op run by the members only, figure that a breaking even point is a good thing. And most members would agree that after breaking even -- they should share in the additional profits, and this can turn out to be a problem.
A business on the other hand considers breaking even as only the first step to growth. Budgets are great and while they provide a model that shouldn't be exceeded, they are only a guideline that will hopefully be added to in the future. This additional income should be earmarked in many ways - A backup fund for unexpected problems, or growth spurts, Developmental funds, Legal funds, Increases in costs of labor, or services, and many other unexpected things.
As the business or co-op grows, so do the expenses. As members are added, cost of operation also increases. Having a buffer that is at least equal to the total budget for a year is a must. Service to it members should be the goal of any auction organization, something that eBay has lost sight of!
What is needed is a place where the sellers can come to trade their wares without having to pay all their profits to the site hosting their auctions, or the services that aid their auctions. A place where they can truly budget their money and know that the majority of their profit will go into their pockets and not the auction site that hosts the auction. A site that makes the member's happiness the most important part of the equation for success, and their ultimate business goal. I believe that the site that does this, will be the site that will become the leader in the auction community. And this is LibertyBid's goal.
JC
Founding Member
LibertyBid.com
www.libertybid.com
Jamie at the risk of Sounding like im takeing a poke at you I want to remind you that former members or not The Ideas the online sellers coop Received were all our Ideas none walked with a peice of your work each person has there own veiws of how things should work.
Remember the message board does ask people to share there Idea's.
Also another note with the exspection of a few of the users posting here all are still working on the Idea of a sellers Owned
Co-operative in one form or another.
Take a longer look at the posts here then ask your self who Really Moved or left what here and who took what from who ?????
Is is a sellers co-op built with the sellers Idea's shared in good faith.
posted on June 19, 2001 05:02:44 PM new
Cathy, "But by becoming a cooperative corporation ... we can live as happily as anyone can in any family." I think you are the only one in this thread who has any idea what a co-op is all about.
JC, you asked if I would work 40-60 hours without pay. No, I would not. If I was planning a co-op, I would get a lot of people together and share the work. But were you ever planning on building a CO-OP? You invested your time and money in LibertyBid, with the intention of making a profit.
In my opinion, you are trying to wear the "co-op label" but the suit just doesn't fit. Either you believe in letting people decide what's best for themselves, or you believe that you know what's best for everyone, and that everyone should pay you to apply that knowlege. You may be sincere in your desire to help people, but that is not co-operation.
We have never once claimed to be a co-op, or claimed that we wanted LibertyBid to be one! -- I thought I had made that clear, but then maybe you missed it.
I disagree that business and members can't work together. I believe members are the most important part of any business. Maybe because that is the way I have done business for the last 35 years - putting the customer first and making them happy, even at my expense.
I realize that this isn't the norm for today's businesses -- and I think that that is ashamed - but maybe it is time to get back to the way things should be - not the way they have become. We can't offer all the bells and whistles yet -- but if we get the members we need, we will get there and everyone will benefit, and maybe we can turn the way of doing business around.
JC
Founding Member
LibertyBid.com
www.libertybid.com
posted on June 19, 2001 07:59:54 PM new
Actually I will Have to Say this!!!
There is a small very small difference in a business and A Co-op, Frist some have one thing Confused A Co-Op is a business or more to the point a group Of Businesses doing business as one.
In all Honest Businesses are a Co-op's customers or what every one here is calling members.
The Co-op Customer will be paying a co-op to help grow and exspand there business There benfit and retrun on investment Will be the Incress in each businesses sales based on how The co-op Promotes its self and how the businesses Promote the co-op.
Basically thats why This group is haveing so much Trouble Putting its self togeather The members a co-op will need are members interested in haveing there Auction sites becomeing members not many sellers right now run there own auction sites at this time.
In order for a seller owned co-op auction to work we Frist need Auction site owners to become member of a coop.
Each site must have sellers and buyers .
The Co-op must serve and benfit Frist the auction Site By bring in new Seller and buyer for the Sites.
Now take this Tree with the Co-Op(Business) on top The auction sites middle and last but not lest Sellers and buyer and turn it upside Down Now The guys from top to bottom Are now ordered according to importants.
The The peices to this co-op puzzle you are all missing is that this is a grass Roots movement who for many the time has come for But before you can have a seller owned coop you need seller Owned auction sites.
Every one has been so focused on One single site and the amount of money they think it takes to do this, Due to the what is now know as the dot bomb era that they missed the fact that the businesses a co-op are promoteing to Didnt even really exist yet.
NO large group of sellers would ever Trust there competition enough to Build a single site it must be done frist on a one by one bases build these Auction site get them running let the Comunities of these site Build the Co-op Around them.
One seller might want a music movie site one a sports site another might be Vintage Now you have Niche catagory sites That can link to and from each other
add a site for Universal search Feed back and registration and what ever else and you have your Auction Co-operative.
Is anyone going to Give there time or money away no Each interested member Need only invest in there own business, the Co-op is only a tool to grow these businesses.
Can this Work more economically Then Ebay It definately can.
can every one profit from it Yes they can. the Co-op Profits From its members Auction sites Auction site profit from its sellers, Sellers can benfit in resonable fees for listing and selling and Control of the co-op there business is part of.
Buyer can Benfit in what would be better selling from people who hold a vested interest The better they are servered The more they will Bid.
they could also benfit in referal fees and other promteing effort they might choose to make.
posted on June 19, 2001 08:29:02 PM new
JC, I'm sorry but your web site has "co-op" written all over it.
(In large bold print
"Founding Internet Co-oPs is Top Priority"
"Some of the most important ideas LIBERTYbid follows is much of the philosophies of Co-oP organizations. We also want to be able to help support and make these strong Internet Co-oPs Organizations."
And much more. While you don't specifically state that you are a co-op, you lead people to believe you will somehow be akin to one. And also, am I correct in understanding that you will charge a membership fee? For what, exactly? For the privilege of shopping on your site?
You are apparently offering "honorary" members a chance to buy into your web site and in exchange you offer some vague "input rights." Frankly, the whole thing is very dismaying. You want to wear the "co-op label" but the jacket doesn't fit. And if you are NOT a co-op, I wonder why you have "founding a co-op is top priority" and other such fluff all over your web site.
"I disagree that business and members can't work together. I believe members are the most important part of any business."
I'm sorry but you lost me at "we never claimed to be a co-op." OH, man, I can NOT go through this again. Your site says "Co-op is our top priority, we partner with co-ops, we follow co-op principles" and here you are in this forum arguing about why "business" is better than "co-op." (Sigh....)
posted on June 19, 2001 08:49:16 PM new
Dman, I think you are absolutely right. Setting up a co-op is no big deal, no different than setting up any other company. If that's what you want to do. And if I hear one more start-up owner claim, "just like a co-op, but better" I'm going to get a can of hot tar and a bag of feathers. Enough already.
You amaze me twinsoft, I find it remarkable that you write so much but don't really bother to read what is actually being said. But then I guess you like - trying to make something seem like something else. I am sorry that you are not able, or willing to grasp the idea that while we believe that the creation of a co-op would be a good idea, and while we offer ONE whole web page on our site to help promote those co-ops, we are not claiming to be a co-op site, only hoping by partnering with them will also helps the auction community. NO PLACE, I repeat, NO PLACE on our site do we claim to be a co-op. YES we would like to see it happen, and YES we do believe that many of the ideas that the co-op movement are good and should be incorporated into our business as well. Is this really that hard for you to understand?
Executive Membership is another thing that you failed to read about -- it is not a way of "buying into" LibertyBid, but a reward for trying to help the community by participating. Members will be elected by other members to the Executive Member level. There is no payment for this level of membership other than the person's willingness to participate and work as a liaison to the Founding Members.
I am sorry that you are so cynical that you can not accept the fact that we believe that co-op's have some good ideas, and we believe that they should be incorporated into our business plan. I am also sorry that you can not accept the fact that even though we promote co-op sites, we are not trying to be one.
Oh I almost forgot -- read the first page to see what the membership fee is for.
JC
Founding Member
LibertyBid.com
www.libertybid.com
posted on June 19, 2001 11:08:01 PM new
JC, when I first visited your web site, I thought it had some pretty good ideas. However, I do have reservations and I appreciate your addressing my concerns. Yes, there are still some unanswered questions. You are waving the co-op flag on your web site, touting its principles and claim to support co-ops, so why is your site not run as a co-op? It's kind of a fine point, and I wouldn't even make an issue of it except that you yourself start threads here like "why is a co-op any better than a business?"
Unfortunately, most business heads just don't understand how a co-op works or what it is supposed to do. They see it as another form of business. It appears LibertyBid has retained some features of a co-op (membership fees) but lost the more important ones (one member, one vote). I don't know you and I don't know your motives but I am afraid you are like many others who see CO-OP as an advertising come-on, the bottom line still being obscene profits.
I'm sorry if I seem cynical. But every one of us has gotten an eye-full of how big business operates on the Internet, and that is; find a loophole and crawl through it. I am suspicious of any group that does not make their claims iron-clad. If I have misjudged you, I apologize.
posted on June 20, 2001 12:07:20 AM new
landofthings, can a for profit site be happy with the fact the sellers are doing everything possible to put more money in their own pockets and not the sites?
For example, Sellers putting links away from the site so buyers can buy from the sellers web site. Low buy prices but high s/h. Sellers contacting the losing bidders that they can sell the item off site. Co-op memebers could pay automatic fees which allows more independance from the rules that for profits require to thrive in order to keep revenue flowing into the site.
But to answer my own question, I've posted months ago facing this same dilemma. The site, whether a co-op or for profit, collects membership fees. When I offered that suggestion for the co-op, it was shot down. That suggested to me that the people who want to be part of a co-op would only end up strangling themselves. Perhaps a For Profit could provide the opportunity and succeed if only you could convince the memebers to invest in such an idea. Major good luck convincing anyone anything.
