posted on July 13, 2001 04:51:46 PM new
Hello fellow co-op supporters,
We wish to announce that Vintage Cooperative Marketplace, Inc., is now a legal co-op. We have changed the site and posted our bylaws and Terms of Service Agreement. Our Official Newsletter, THE CO-OP COURIER, is also posted right along with everything else you would expect.
http://www.vcm-coop.com
It appears we are the first, and only, legally formed online auction co-op. VCM is a niche community of antique, vintage, and collectible items.
Although we have just recently commenced our Official Membership Drive, we wish to inform the community of this most recent important breakthrough.
Our staff has been extremely busy since this transpired, but I personally will be happy to field any questions regarding our policies or procedures.
To follow AuctionWatch quidelines and our own protocols, we request that questions be restricted to the topic at hand (policies and procedures of Vintage Cooperative Marketplace, Inc.) and regret that we cannot comment on any information that is confidential or privileged nor engage in any type of personal forums.
Mark Davis, CEO
President
Vintage Cooperative Marketplace, Inc.
www.vcm-coop.com
posted on July 13, 2001 07:24:20 PM new
This is confusing to poor little me...who are you and how are yiou associated with THIS co-op? Thanx for the education.
posted on July 13, 2001 08:14:11 PM new
May I ask why you would need my date of birth and social security number?
I don't know anything about co-ops or why you would need this info, but I remember when eBay attempted to get people to be "verified" and required their SSN to do so, there was a great outcry against it.
posted on July 13, 2001 08:36:37 PM new
dzyblonde,
I do and I don't follow your questions and to some degree understand your confusion. This confusion was not caused by us, but other parties.
I will give you a condensed history of our origins and hope it is sufficient to answer all similar inquiries before they are asked. Then we can just get on with the business at hand...a productive critique of Vintage Cooperative Marketplace, Inc. The last thing anyone needs is a non-productive discussion about "he said, she said".
Back in October of 2000, I was posting quite a bit in the eBay alt.newsgroup and was very vocal about eBay instituting all the negative regulations they needed to curb the problems they were having with the new retail sellers and buyers they were attracting. At the time, I (and others) advocated two things...a union or a co-op. No one was actually doing anything, just talking.
Then on 02/12/01 I saw a thread where a group was working on trying to get a co-op together. The thread asked if someone could help with some html in building their site. I contacted the person doing the work and she accepted my offer of help. As things got involved, I made clear that I will help, but my heart was not in an all inclusive co-op site. I wanted one that was just for antiques, vintage, and collectible items.
Over a short period of time, she agreed that a niche site would be a more viable alternative. She separated herself from the other group and we started working together on a niche site which later developed into Vintage Marketplace Cooperative.
Over the course of several months, we had our ups and downs. We both put in many hours of work at a great sacrifice to both of us.
After many days of deliberation, on 06/18/01, it was my sad duty to inform her that her services were no longer needed by Vintage Marketplace Cooperative and under no circumstances was she to use the name, mailing lists, or any other confidential information she acquired while working for Vintage Marketplace Cooperative.
It is sad to say that she felt otherwise and immediately used the mailing lists which alienated many good volunteers. She has also since been persistent in using the same name.
Our group felt that it would be unproductive and a waste of time to fight these issues with her. We just let her go her way and do her thing. We did likewise. When we got to the stage where we were ready to incorporate, we voted on just changing the name to Vintage Cooperative Marketplace, Inc.
So I do understand you confusion to a point. You, yourself, had been working a short time with her at the time this change came about, so you should be aware of who I am. I have no idea if you are still working with her or not.
Hope this clears some things up for you and if you have any questions regarding our policies, I will be happy to oblige.
Sincerely,
Mark Davis
[ edited by vcm on Jul 13, 2001 09:39 PM ]
The information you are referring to is on the application for membership, it is not like registering to bid at eBay. You are buying ownership in a co-op corporation.
Your membership represents a valuable and legal document that is recognized by the court of the land. It is through this ownership that creates your power of the vote in regards to the affairs of the Co-op.
Therefore, I am sure you understand the need for such information. We have kept it as simple and pain-free as possible.
posted on July 13, 2001 10:12:31 PM new
booksbooksbooks,
Sorry, but we are getting off topic here and getting into the area of "he said, she said" again and that is not what this is about. I would assume you know the other party or you would not be interested in furthering this line of discussion. I am not.
Ever since I started forming this co-op, I have monitored this board as well as others, but have not been an active participant. And for good reason.
Many of the threads appear to sooner or later degrade themselves to just the type of direction and distraction you wish to take this one.
I have only come forward now because we feel that this is an extremely important step for the co-op and auction community. If you wish to carry on a serious discussion about the stated policies of Vintage Cooperative Marketplace, Inc., I'm here for you.
posted on July 13, 2001 10:14:46 PM new
You have lots of work to do convincing me, before I contribute TWO HUNDRED FIFTY DOLLARS to an organization that may or may not fly.
Sounds like a great way to make some quick cash though. Sorry if you don't like the sound of that - it's how I feel!
posted on July 13, 2001 10:19:53 PM new
I thought today would be a day to celebrate. But I have very bad feelings about this. Cathy joined our discussion group some seven months ago, and made it clear she wanted to build a specialty site for vintage collectibles. She was not interested in a general auction site. That was long before she began Vintage Marketplace Collectibles.
I think we should all remember that even when building a co-op, business is business and there is no such thing as a handshake between friends. I find that a sad fact.
posted on July 13, 2001 10:29:38 PM new
ferncreek,
It is obvious where you are coming from and where you are going and I refuse to go there with you.
If you are truly a supporter of the co-op movement within the auction community, why not take this opportunity to learn as well as share for the benefit of all. Afterall, that is what cooperatives are all about, are they not? That's the creed that we at VCM, Inc. subscribe to.
Mark Davis
Vintage Cooperative Marketplace, Inc.
www.vcm-coop.com
posted on July 13, 2001 10:55:39 PM new
morgantown,
For many people the amount is too much as it is not for many others. The average cost for a booth at an antique fair for just one weekend is more than that. And if you just look at the economics of it, for the seller that puts up 10 small auctions a month, there is no monetary "profit" in being a member.
If you also look at the benefits that one receives from being a co-op member, you will see this amount is trivial by comparision. This co-op was not founded just because one person thought it was a good idea. It was started because 100's of people said they wanted it.
A co-op is not for everyone. It is the type of organization that requires work. Work on the part of the co-op as well as work on the part of its members. Since members are owners, it demands quite a bit of responsibility from them.
Mark Davis
Vintage Cooperative Marketplace, Inc.
www.vcm-coop.com
You may be right, I can only relate the facts as they occured around me at the time. What her thoughts were before she started working on an all inclusive site, I have no idea.
I have always followed your posts with interest and respect your ideas and belief in the co-op movement into the auction community. You have gone beyond what is expected of anyone in this endeavor.
This IS a good day to celebrate. A co-op has finally gone where no man has gone before. (I heard that somewhere)
Mark Davis
Vintage Cooperative Marketplace, Inc.
www.vcm-coop.com
posted on July 13, 2001 11:43:00 PM new I would assume you know the other party or you would not be interested in furthering this line of discussion.
Actually, I'd wager there are a lot of folks reading this thread who (like me) DON'T know the other party, but find the sequence of events you described as being a little questionable, ethics-wise. Not an accusation, just an observation.
-gaffan-
posted on July 13, 2001 11:58:15 PM new
Mark, I read your TOS and they seem to make sense. I do have a question about your requirement that members buy from the co-op, even when co-op prices are higher. Is there a precedent for that rule? Where did it come from?
That's why these types of discussions are counter-productive. No one but the parties involved know all the facts, and only then as they preceive them themselves. And just so as to not take any credit away from our volunteers, 99.99% of what you see at Vintage Cooperative Marketplace, Inc., she had nothing to do with.
The proof is in the pudding. VCM, Inc. has developed policies and procedures that we believe will help cement the disenchanted sellers and buyers of other auction sites. All formed and adopted under a legal entity.
Mark Davis
Vintage Cooperative Marketplace, Inc.
www.vcm-coop.com
That came from the National Cooperative Business Association and is not set down as a rule. It is placed there in among other co-op ideals.
These are the things that members should do in support of the corporation in which they own. Sort of like if you were part owners in an ice cream shop and your partner went down the street everyday to get an ice cream cone just because it was cheaper.
To do so, one makes a conscious decision to take business away from himself and further hurts his cause by supporting a short term gain elsewhere.
No, we would never dictate that a member must buy from the co-op, irregardless of a cheaper price elsewhere. We just hope that they have the good sense to realize how much something like this hurts themselves and in turn, the Co-op.
A very thoughtful question. One that is very important for members to understand the mechanics behind it.
Mark Davis
Vintage Cooperative Marketplace, Inc.
www.vcm-coop.com
posted on July 14, 2001 12:42:55 AM new
"We just hope that they have the good sense
to realize how much something like this hurts themselves and in turn, the
Co-op."
Is this a prophecy? Perhaps you should digest your own words.
You must realize that NOBODY will ever trust you now.
I don't know how much work this other woman did but it must have been considerable although you say she only did 0.001% of what we see.
You can't expect us to believe you now! (or later).
posted on July 14, 2001 01:16:35 AM new
toteullenebay,
We are not asking you to trust me or anyone else. Trust the co-op you own. My vote does not carry any more weight than yours. We are on a complete level playing field.
Trust the legal documents that dictate behavior. Trust your fellow members to see that the co-op is run according to your wishes. Trust yourself to have the fortitude to support your responsibilities to the co-op.
Mark Davis
Vintage Cooperative Marketplace, Inc.
www.vcm-coop.com
posted on July 14, 2001 02:49:26 AM new
I have to say that I have no prior knowledge of whatever incident you guys are talking about, and I think that FernCreek has made some excellent points, and asked questions that I would like to know the answers to before I would ever consider getting involved with this co-op.
You can call it "he said she said" all you want, but I believe that most people feel the need to know who and what they would be getting involved with, including info about the company's history, before sinking their time and money into such a venture.
posted on July 14, 2001 08:57:27 AM new
Good Morning CAgrrl,
I have already given a history of how we were formed. You may choose to believe what I have stated, or you can believe her. This is your right and choice.
As a public forum, more information has been forthright than what really should have been. Most of what her volunteers are pursuing is the gossip of our history. There have been nearly 1500 emails that traveled between us which does not include the multitude of live chats. Even if I revealed all this information, it would satisfy no one. Most have their minds made up already and just wish to feed their tabloid curiosity which has nothing to do with what Vintage Cooperative Marketplace, Inc. has presented.
I doubt there have been many people that wrote eBay and said...."hey, before I invest thousands of dollars in fees to you, I need to know all the "gossip" of what has gone on within your organization..." Their determination as to whether they wished to participate in eBays site was not based on any "inside" information, it was based on the merits of what eBay had to offer.
If you noticed the theme of "ferncreek's" post, it was not of serious questions, but of accusations...there is a big difference. To give just an example, is his/her accusation that we don't need the type of information we request just because we are not paying salaries.
This is just ignorance on his/her part, and I would have addressed his/her inquiry if it had been presented in an honest and forthright manner. Vintage Marketplace Cooperative, Inc. will be paying patronage rebates to members which represents their part ownership of the Co-op. Portions (or all) of these payments are a tax liability to the individual receiving them. We must account to the IRS for these disbursements and who they go to. In the course of other important interaction with its members, it is imperative for the security of the Co-op and its members, that we are able to determine that a member is who they say they are. And then there is the issue of when a member dies. His or her ownership will (or may) become a part of their estate. Try justifying all the issues involved there without the ability to properly identify the member. And if you still think that I'm just blowing smoke, call you local broker and just see how many shares of any corporation they will let you buy without disclosing a social security number or similar information.
If you, or anyone else, honestly wish to become a member and truly believe these tabloid issues are more (or just) as important in your decision making as the "meat" of what we have established, I will be happy to address them privately and individually....not in a public forum.
This forum is for the exchange of serious issues regarding what Vintage Cooperative Marketplace, Inc. has presented to the auction community.
Mark Davis, CEO
President
Vintage Cooperative Marketplace, Inc.
www.vcm-coop.com
posted on July 14, 2001 10:12:53 AM new
These (tabloid issues) As you call them has to do with the fact That You, a single member of the VMC Group a group Where each member is suppose to have a vote a say and be part owner Came out Right on this board just a few short weeks ago and announced that you no you were Firing A Volunteer member NOT Just a member but CO founder and spokes person for the group.
My First Question and I'll bet the Question most want to Know is How First you Fire a volunteer but even more how you can Fire a co-founder of a cooperative group.
if it is possible could you please direct us to the results of the voting on this Issue.
Also since you are asking a fairly steep amount $250 for member ship is it possible for you to direct Us to a list of Already active paying member and addresses to contact them so anyone who might want to contact a few to see what there experience is with this group.
Also Since this is suppose to be the first legal Auction co-operative Could you please provide us all with the Web Address (URL) to the VMC auction site so we can see the site how it is set up and how the listings and bidding are doing.
Correct me if I am wrong here but if there is no actual auction site at this time then what you are really doing here is asking people to invest $250 to discuss building a auction site ????
I know you like many others many be confused, what people who already have an active online auction business are interested in is there sales many use auction as full time liveing think it is going to be hard to near imposable to get these people to invest big $$$ in a legal name when what they need is a site with buyer to sell at.
im not posting to put down any co-op movement but I have been involved in this 6 months with many groups trying to form a Auction co-op interested people have had there say they are now looking for sites with results !!!!!
By the way when your asking $250 member ship fees there is no such thing as already haveing gave to much information publically
The services of certain volunteers were indeed terminated back in June. At the time, we were just a group of individuals working together in an attempt to form a legal co-op. We were not a legal organization bound by legal prodedures. There was no "formal" vote taken or minutes recorded. There was, however, a general discussion and concensus as to the action we needed to take.
Because someone is a volunteer, it does not give them the right to do whatever they wish, especially when it is harmful to the co-op.
Over a period of time, it became quite clear that certain volunteers had banded together to create their own special interest group and control the direction of the co-op for their own benefit.
This particular group, and one in particular, stongly objected to the presentation of the bylaws as you see them now (with many added revisions). If we disagreed on an issue, this person also stated that they WOULD NOT agree to putting it before the rest of the volunteers for their input, nor agree to any majority vote. She stated that whatever area she was working on, she was to have the final say...period.
This attitude is completely in opposition to the most basic principle of what we were trying to establish...a co-op. Without this principle, there is no co-op. It was therefore our combined decision that she, and others, were not wanted within the group.
And yes, we are not an actual operational site for selling and bidding and this is obvious to all who visit.
We have set up the legal structure and established bylaws and procedures that explain how the site MUST be operated. This cannot be changed without the approval of its members. In reality, the site has been created through the Bylaws and Terms of Service Agreement...the actual look of the future site is just "fluff".
As a result of your experience, you know how much work, sacrifice, and money goes into getting a co-op of this nature to this point. Several of us have committed every financial resource at our disposal to get this done. We have given the community what it wanted. The choice to commit to their convictions is now theirs.
Mark Davis, CEO
President
Vintage Cooperative Marketplace, Inc.
www.vcm-coop.com
Please explain why the following negative statement is necessary on the VCM site:
DON'T BE MISLEAD
While VCM has been quietly working hard to form this co-op, there have been other attempts (and at times, very vocal) to create a similar co-op or site that purports to be a co-op. Do not be fooled by cheap imitations or false promises. When you see our official logo, you know you have the real deal.
Also, where can information be located pertaining to what your proposed salary/duties are, also that of other operating positions within VCM.
we cannot comment on any information that is confidential or privileged nor engage in any type of personal forums.
You have made several comments that I would interpret as personal. The persons are unnamed, but the comments go beyond the scope of this conversation. I'm going to ask that you all refrain from such discussion.
Everyone,
If you have questions about the policies or procedures of VCM, please post them. The poster vcm may answer those questions as a Company Rep in a strictly factual and nonpromotional manner. But please do not discuss individuals or get into personalities.
posted on July 14, 2001 02:04:03 PM new
morgantown,
The duties of all officers, directors, and members is spelled out in the Bylaws. In some cases, these duties are very specific and in others they are broad.
This is to form a rigid structure that is yet flexible enough to deal with individual and varied circumstances.
We have just incorporated and the issue of establishing salaries has not been a priority of the Board, although an issue that must be addressed and voted on shortly. When this is completed, it will become available to the members at large. In our previous discussions, we did at least come to the realization that they will be way below the industry standard for similar positions with similar responsibilities and duties.
We don't feel the statement at the site is negative in any regard. We ARE the only legal co-op online auction site. We will remain the real deal until such time as someone else joins our ranks and become a legal co-op.
Mark Davis, CEO
President
Vintage Cooperative Marketplace, Inc.
www.vcm-coop.com
