posted on February 15, 2001 04:55:23 PM new
I am a power seller on ebay. I list over 800 auctions per month. I also was putting alot of items on yahoo until they started their fees. I had sold approx 1 out of 20 listings. I also tried amazon some time ago, but I never sold anything, and was not impressed. I am looking for another site to call home (or second home).
As you are probably aware, there is a co-op auction movement taking place on AW and on other message boards. Perhaps it will succeed, probably it will fail. I posted about my thoughts on a co-op, but after seeing and being witness to some of the personal attacks, confusion, in-fighting, etc., I have decided to steer clear at this time.
I have noted that a few of the "owners" of alternative auction sites have posted on this message board. What I would like to say to any "owner" of the alternative auctions is as follows (I have e-mailed a few of your auctions, with no response.)
I have reviewed several of the alternative auction sites (Bidbay, Bidville, Popula, epier). I see very little going on, especially in respect to bidding. I frankly do not know how you are still in business based on my evaluation, but that is my opinion.
There is an opportunity for you..right now. Sellers (such as myself) are frustrated with ebay. I do not like not being in control of my business (I sell collectibles, the majority online through ebay), with my master being a monopoly hellbent on transforming itself from a "community" to a colossus. I could, at the flick of a finger, direct hundreds of listing per month to your site. I find nothing compelling to make me do so.
Here are my suggestions if you are interested in cultivating an increase in your listings from an admittedly disgruntled ebay seller base:
1. Never charge a fee...make it iron clad. No changing the rules when you get enough sellers "hooked". Make your money on advertising, etc.
2. If not #1, then put out a set fee, and stick to it. Again, the rules need to be 100% permanent. I have no problems paying a fair fee that will not change.
3. Give sellers an incentive to list. This could be something like profit sharing or stock options based on the amount of items listed (real items, not spam advertising).
4. Stop trying to control the sellers business. Ebay says that we cannot sell to underbidders, etc. although it happens all of the time. Yahoo will not provide the e-mail address of the bidder unless the reserve is met. I want to sell to anyone that wants my product (and has the cash to pay for it).
5. Make it more difficult to leave negative feedback. There are many instances where negative feedback is warranted (fraud, non-payment, etc.). But I have received negatives because I didn't respond to someone by the next day after an auction, or because the bidder was unhappy with an item that was accurately described, but they did not bother to read the description. Make the prospective negative poster call the other party first. Perhaps have the auction act as a go-between by e-mail. Most negative comments are easily resolved by a willing seller and reasonable purchaser.
6. Perhaps several of your auctions could merge into one large auction in order to generate the critical mass that is required to compete with the monopoly. Sure some egos will be bruised, but 10% of something is better than 100% of nothing.
I could probably come up with another 50 suggestions if I had the time (I gotta get back to my business). None of the above suggestions are 100% painless...in fact, there will be considerable pain involved in instituting any of them. You have a real opportunity to provide a viable alternative to ebay. If you are proactive, you could contact one of the leaders of the various co-ops (just check on AW message boards and you will find out who they are). I know that if I was in your position, that is definitely what I would be doing.
Regardless of all of the above, something needs to be done now. And it will be done, as the song goes, "with or without you".
All of the above, just my opinion...I don't get paid for this...now, back to work!
posted on February 15, 2001 05:38:10 PM new
I have thousands of satisfied buyers to direct to a new site..multiply that by the hundreds of power sellers out there, then you may get the picture. I am also a bidder on ebay. In my opinion, the bidders will go where there a supply of varied and quality merchandise is. Right now it is on ebay. Bidders will come eventually, perhaps with an incentive program ($5 - $10 towards your first purchase). Sorry, without the sellers, there is no merchandise, no alternative auctions, and hopefully, one day, no ebay.
[ edited by auctionfool25 on Feb 15, 2001 05:39 PM ]
posted on February 15, 2001 06:03:52 PM new
Great idea although I dont see anyone giving a lifetime promise of no fee increases because you cant! All things raise in price in time including. However, fees need to coincide with the level of services and advertising. Like I have said, I would gladly pay a one time listing fee to Bidville if they will use the money to advertise.
http://ballsandstrikescollectibles.beckett.com/
posted on February 15, 2001 08:11:48 PM new
#1 Inernet ad revenue just doesn't pay what people think it pays and these sites cannot survive on that income alone. Plus the sellers and/or buyers would complain.
a. sellers would claim it was direct competition just like they did on eBay.
b. buyers would complain that it clutters up the site and are not interested in seeing all of those advertisements.
#2 As someone else already stated the cost of living does go up...hence the idea behind cost of living increases called raises.
#3 Give sellers an incentive to list? The only incentive a site should offer is a fairly large buyer pool and your reward will be in the money you make off of your sales.
#4 I see and understand both sides of the argument on this one. If a site is charging a FVF fee they are out if you are selling to people when the reserve wasn't met. I think this should only be allowed in the case of a deadbeat bidder.
#5 I agree on the feedback issue. I think if a seller provides a timely NPB alert and files for fees credit the bidder should not be allowed to leave feedback if they are found "guilty" so to speak. The same should go for a seller if it is proven that payment was sent and received.
#6 I think you found the answer to your own suggestion there..."egos."
As far as you being a powerseller on eBay. Why not just stick with what works?
Why waste valuable time listing at sites who have no bidders?
posted on February 15, 2001 08:19:48 PM new
I have to agree with AG2, if I was a power seller there listing over 800 auctions a month, I'd probably be making some bucks and would stay right there because I could afford the fees.
People that complain that the fees are outrageous are talking nickel and dime stuff here.
I am not a power seller so it would hurt me a little, but much less than having no chance at a sale would.
posted on February 15, 2001 11:01:14 PM new
Ag2 is right about the advertising revenue. What used to bring in $35 CPM is now bringing in only 99 cents CPM.
Yahoo is a prime example. They based most of their business plan around advertising revenue. Now that advertising isn't bringing in the big bucks anymore their stock has taken a big dive. I predict a buyout of Yahoo very shortly. My prediction: either AOL Time Warner or eBay will buy Yahoo for a fraction of what they were worth just last year. Oh I almost forgot. Didn't the Bidbay ceo say he was buying Yahoo? Amazon too. Ok, now I'm laughing too hard to continue typing!
posted on February 16, 2001 12:50:01 AM new
In repsonse to the statement about raises amazon raised their fee from 9.95 to 39.95 this depending upon several ways of playing with figures is a 300% increase, other than the ruling class of this society want to tell me which profession that is middle class got a 300% raise to pay this ? ebay's fee is more than the cost of living increases by percentage than the poor, disabled veterans, and most workers in the middle and blue collar classes got in the same time period, each day some slick business suited crud comes up with a new way to bleed the people they then expect to fight and die for this country,and no I'm not an advocate of the marxist classisim, I think they need to be held just as accountable for stunts like the murders for democracy students in China. but back to the subject. mosrt people know when they are getting ripped off and most of us are smart enough to know it regardless of what nonsense the mainstream press attaches to it.
posted on February 16, 2001 01:45:45 AM new
Hello to all, Maria Bustillos from Popula here. We've been following these lively discussions with great interest.
In addition to being a partner in Popula, I have been a retailer of vintage clothing and rare books for some years. I'm also on the board of the Independent Online Booksellers' Association (http://www.ioba.org), a trade group dedicated to protecting the interests of independent booksellers online. My partners and I have a lot of retail background between us. So we're coming at these matters from a practical perspective.
When we started Popula in 1998, we meant to create just a cool venue for vintage and rare merchandise. We weren't thinking of buyers and sellers as having entirely different objectives and interests, the way we do now. After two years, though, I really look at the online auction industry largely as a support business for sellers. Sellers are our true customers; they pay the bills; their success equals our success. So at Popula we view sellers and seller services as our primary responsibility. Of course, one of our principal responsibilities to sellers is to bring buyers and keep them coming, and that means making sure that our buying customers are happy too.
We agree with with many of Dave's points and would like to address each one in turn. You might also want to look at my colleague, Oliver Corlett's response to a similar question on another thread at: http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=33&thread=1743
Never charge a fee...make it iron clad. No changing the rules when you get enough sellers "hooked". Make your money on advertising, etc.
It's not possible to run an online business to a professional standard in each area (software development, customer service, r&d, product development, sales, marketing and so on) without charging fees. Popula is privately owned and doesn't have obligations to Wall Street or outside investors of any kind, but even without that pressure, there's no way we could pay for the costs of running the business without fees. As AG2 mentioned, ad rates on the web are not what they were a year ago, and companies who built their hopes on advertising revenue alone are going under in droves every week.
[i]If not #1, then put out a set fee, and stick to it. Again, the rules need to be 100% permanent. I have
no problems paying a fair fee that will not change.[/i]
I agree that gouging those who helped your business grow is not the most honorable business strategy. However, there should be a certain amount of flexibility here: if costs should rise (for instance, if bandwidth costs suddenly double, or something), auctions like all businesses need latitude to adjust pricing in order to function in changing market conditions.
That said, I think that as sanity returns to the Internet, more conservative and sensible pricing policies will eventually prevail.
Give sellers an incentive to list. This could be something like profit sharing or stock options based on the amount of items listed (real items, not spam advertising).
We are very into this idea, though it's more difficult to implement than you might think. We offered a stock participation program (called SODApop) our first year of business, and we did attract sellers that way (there was even a very kind story about it on AuctionWatch!). After discussions with the SEC, however, we decided not to continue the program past the first year. However, we have always been very amenable to a legal form of shared ownership with our sellers, and have studied several programs of this kind with a view to adopting one. At Popula we are totally committed to the empowerment of individuals and small businesses on the web; that's the part of this business that turns me on the most.
The co-op model, by the way, is fairly thorny--I looked into it in some detail in 1999, for a booksellers' cooperative--but it may be possible to come up with a structure that makes everybody reasonably happy. We're entirely open to suggestions. Oliver Corlett, my partner, is ex of Wall Street and just a great strategist on these issues.
The main problems with the co-op model I believe to be: creating the right legal form of ownership, which is kind of expensive, dealing with complicated blue-sky laws, and implementing an effective, workable decisionmaking process without everyone going nuts. I'm afraid you have to involve a lot of lawyers right from the start. By the way, we are happy to share our resources on this subject, such as they are, with anyone who would like them--just email me.
Stop trying to control the sellers business. Ebay says that we cannot sell to underbidders, etc. although it happens all of the time. Yahoo will not provide the e-mail address of the bidder unless the reserve is met. I want to sell to anyone that wants my product (and has the cash to pay for it).
Totally, totally agree with this. Our attitude is and has always been quite laissez-faire. We believe that our business is served when our sellers make money, period.
[i]Make it more difficult to leave negative feedback. There are many instances where negative feedback
is warranted (fraud, non-payment, etc.). But I have received negatives because I didn't respond to
someone by the next day after an auction, or because the bidder was unhappy with an item that was
accurately described, but they did not bother to read the description. Make the prospective negative
poster call the other party first. Perhaps have the auction act as a go-between by e-mail. Most negative
comments are easily resolved by a willing seller and reasonable purchaser.[/i]
We are fortunate to have had very few problems with feedback at Popula. Being a smaller niche operator is an enormous advantage that way--weirdness of any kind really sticks out and so far, it's been very easy to resolve the few disputes we've had. We know that feedback will become a more complex issue as we grow, but we're confident that we can deal with it fairly.
If you've made it this far through this enormous message, I am amazed! Thank you for your patience. One last comment for Dave: I was surprised that you didn't find Popula's sellthrough numbers far better than the average. We're quite proud of our growing sellthrough, which is consistently over 25% in our most active categories.
Anyway, thanks very much for the opportunity to connect.
Best to all-
Maria Bustillos
Popula
http://www.popula.com
[ edited by populissima on Feb 16, 2001 01:51 AM ]
posted on February 16, 2001 04:13:35 AM new
Allright Maria, you sound like a real person with good ideas. I am going to take a look at your sight and if my auction pages fit allright and there are no hiccups along those lines, you just made a new customer. The munute you double back on me and start acting like ebay, you are going to lose my business.
A comment for Auroanorth:
I have to confess that the other day the thought did occur to me that the reason this country fought in World War II, was so people would not have to tolerate the kind of treatment that Ebay dishes out. Statements like this leave us both wide open for ridicule and some cheap shots, but who cares.
posted on February 16, 2001 06:00:18 PM new
Maria,
Your post pulled me out of the lurking mode. I have been getting acquainted with Popula and preparing to start running auctions over there. Typing descriptions...can anything be more tedious?
Everytime I turn around you or your site impresses me.
I am throwing on my 60's Marshall Field's Jacket, grabbing all my Hobe and Crown Trifari and running over to your place to play with the fun kids.
posted on February 17, 2001 10:36:26 PM new
From AuctionFool: <I>5. Make it more difficult to leave negative feedback.</I>
I would love to see the Auction sites find a way to "weight" feedback. It just don't seem right that a neg from someone with zero feedback should count as much as a neg from someone with feedback in the hundreds.
Edited to fix HTML
[ edited by MemoryHole on Feb 17, 2001 10:42 PM ]
[ edited by MemoryHole on Feb 17, 2001 10:45 PM ]
posted on February 20, 2001 06:55:18 PM new
populissima:
I have only one question.
If you were to charge fees, say a structured Final Value Fee by percentage. Why would there be a reason to increase such a type of fee?
As costs go up so should ending values of items sold. In other words, as inflation increases so would your revenue by this set percentage.
Sellers take chances when listing products in an auction atmosphere, and I feel that the business promoting these auctions should take some of risk as well.
The percentage of Final Value Fees is the only fair way to charge fees. Otherwise the site has little in the way of incentive to help sellers if they were to get fees even if there are no buyers. In other words little reason to advertise.
Just my opinion.
[ edited by opals on Feb 20, 2001 06:56 PM ]
posted on February 20, 2001 09:43:39 PM new
Hi opals, thanks for your note.
If you were to charge fees, say a structured Final Value Fee by percentage. Why would there be a reason to increase such a type of fee?
As costs go up so should ending values of items sold. In other words, as inflation increases so would your revenue by this set percentage.
Sellers take chances when listing products in an auction atmosphere, and I feel that the business promoting these auctions should take some of risk as well.
The only reason that FVF fees like Popula's might legitimately be changed is that other aspects of running a Web business might become more (or less) expensive. (For instance, if computer-literate employees became very difficult to find, and salaries went up correspondingly; if corporation tax laws were to change; if bandwidth costs on the Internet were to increase dramatically, etc.) Factors such as these are out of the control of auctions and sellers both, and affect Web business as a whole. Extreme changes in these areas would create valid and sensible reasons to modify an existing fee policy, consistent with running a business in a manner both service-oriented and profit-minded.
I agree very much that it's pretty bad business (and very short-sighted) to herd all your customers into a pen and then, just because they have come to depend on your product, suddenly triple your prices. Fortunately, however, customers have a way of busting out of the pen when subjected to grossly unfair treatment. That's the beauty of free markets!
Any well-run business tries to offer a good product at a fair price--one that will leave customers satisfied and coming back for more.
Best to all--
Maria Bustillos
Popula
http://www.popula.com
[ edited by populissima on Feb 20, 2001 09:44 PM ]
posted on February 21, 2001 09:49:28 AM new
Doesn't look like anyone wants that #2 spot. It takes a brilliant advertising plan and lots of money, which these smaller sites don't seem to have. Yahoo could step it up, but their main fault lies in the fact that they are mainly a portal and are trying to do too much at the same time. Amazon is a book seller, also trying to do too much. So seriously, who does that leave? No one!
Niche sites like Popula will succeed but will never contend for the top two spots, nor should they.
