posted on February 16, 2001 11:48:17 AM new
How the various auction sites view themselves in contrast to the various threads in this forum. I read many posts that are critical and the positive comments, then there are those that are fence sitting as I am. So my question to the folks that work or own the sites: What do you consider a successful site, and how are you going to get there? It's obvious to me that HE said / SHE said comments on this forum don't help but just confuse the uninitated and turn them off. So lets have a productive and positive thread! (Hint: lets not use ebay as an example nor do any bashing or promoting, just lay out the info in an understandable manner).
posted on February 16, 2001 12:23:09 PM new
Now that was clever! How about commenting on the threads questions? I know you can, I read your posts and I must say I'm impressed. Perhaps you would like to share your views?
posted on February 16, 2001 12:50:58 PM new
hi elecdata1.
Let me just preface by saying if I were running my very own auction site (which I wouldn't be foolish enough to attempt) these are some of the things I would try to bring to the table for sellers and buyers.
#1. Verification for both sellers and buyers. It would not have to be a credit card but maybe like an address confirmation like PayPal offers. When you receive a letter at the address you claim on your registration you get a code you must log in and enter before you can sell or buy.
This doesn't mean there won't be any deadbeats or rip offs but I think will help cut down some of this activity.
#2 I would start out with charging FVF's and for any and every enhancement (i.e. bold, featured category, featured front page, banner).
This would help bring in at least a little revenue while cutting down the clutter on the front pages that you see on so many free sites in their "featured front page" category.
#3 I would create a tier program for the free listings.
Just an example:
a. new user would be allowed to run 50 free auctions a month with 1 free relist for each auction. A $.05 insertion fee for any auctions over that 50 month limite.
b. once a user achieves a certain feedback status and meets a certain $ goal a month in sales then they would get 100 free auctions a month 1 free relist per auction. A $.05 insertion fee for any auctions over that 50 month limit.
This of course would tier up until you reach powerseller status.
If you are a powerseller on another site and can provide proof or meet a set $ amount on my site then you would qualify for:
c. Sellers who either meet a certain $ amount each month in sales or are already qualified powersellers in other programs would received up to 1000 free auctions a month.
Why would I implement this type of program? It would eliminate some new user coming on the site and filling up the website with thousands of useless items that have little or no chance of selling i.e. common sports cards that could be listed in bulk quantities, recipes, etc.
Of course eventually the hope would be that there would be no free listings but the site could justify a small insertion fee.
3. Any and all incentive programs or advertisement would be aimed solely at the buyer. The sellers already have an incentive to list at a "free" site and I feel my only reward as well as theirs should be successful transactions.
4. I would implement a feedback program that would protect the buyer and seller.
If a seller files a NPB with the site and the buyer cannot offer any proof of payment.
Or
If a buyer files a fraud complaint against the seller and the seller cannot offer any proof of shipment then the "guilty" party or parties would not be able to leave feedback just a response.
I would also make sure to note on their feedback page right along with how many bid retractions they have, but how many NPB's they have, and how many non-shipment complaints they have.
If fraud is proven against the seller then they are booted period.
If a buyer can't complete their first 10 transactions without receiveing a NPB then they are booted period.
posted on February 16, 2001 01:03:44 PM new
Howdy AG2 ~~ Well written and certainly worth reading more than once especially by the folks who do have their sites up and running.
posted on February 16, 2001 02:11:23 PM new
Just me lurking again! Hey, it's a pretty good idea! Of course, I like free better, but if it had to come to this, this would be the way to go! I agree about the crap on sites (I have no crap)!
posted on February 16, 2001 03:12:13 PM new
Hello all, Maria Bustillos from Popula here.
AG2, always enjoy your thoughtful and articulate posts. And thanks to Bill for the opportunity to mouth off (!) In response to AG2's comments:
Let me just preface by saying if I were running my very own auction site (which I wouldn't be foolish enough to attempt)
ha! Good point.
these are some of the things I would try to bring to the table for sellers and buyers.
#1. Verification for both sellers and buyers. It would not have to be a credit card but maybe like an address confirmation like PayPal offers. When you receive a letter at the address you claim on your registration you get a code you must log in and enter before you can sell or buy.
This is maybe the best way to deal with verification from the point of view of security, but people do expect instant gratification from the web. And as a seller, you want people to be able to participate immediately without a lot of bureaucratic intervention. At Popula, we mainly try to just stay out of the way. This means more risk for buyers and sellers both, but it also means lower fees and less interference in your business from the auction itself.
AG2, do you think that this verification method imposes too much restriction on a would-be impulse buyer? Do you feel that the trade-off in security is really worth it? Or should verification really begin after the auction has ended? I am kind of tending toward the latter view. It's an interesting question.
#2 I would start out with charging FVF's and for any and every enhancement (i.e. bold, featured category, featured front page, banner).
Well, this we have always done. Much agreed that it is the best most honest way--Popula has never been free to use. Auction sites offer a service that is worth a certain (fair) amount, provided they can bring you business. It should be a mutually beneficial professional relationship.
#3 I would create a tier program for the free listings.
Popula offers free listings to any seller who starts over 100 auctions in a calendar month. I like certain features of your scheme (notably the tiered aspect which ours doesn't have), but I also like the total simplicity of our program, which basically ensures that listings are free to serious sellers.
[I]3. Any and all incentive programs or advertisement would be aimed solely at the buyer. The sellers already have an incentive to list at a "free" site and I feel my only reward as well as theirs should be
successful transactions.[/I]
What kind of buyer incentives have you got in mind, if you don't mind my asking? I think that's a really interesting concept.
4. I would implement a feedback program that would protect the buyer and seller.
If a seller files a NPB with the site and the buyer cannot offer any proof of payment. Or
If a buyer files a fraud complaint against the seller and the seller cannot offer any proof of shipment then the "guilty" party or parties would not be able to leave feedback just a response.
It sounds like quite a lot of overhead here in terms of administrative time; not getting into the potential legal ramifications of "business interference". Sellers don't always keep perfect records, and neither do buyers, so there might be opportunity for scamming. Most transactions do go smoothly but in order to keep costs low and operations manageable, I believe the least amount of interference is best.
I would also make sure to note on their feedback page right along with how many bid retractions they have, but how many NPB's they have, and how many non-shipment complaints they have.
Love these ideas. They are great.
I have also been thinking quite a lot about the Half.com model where there is only feedback for sellers, and only transaction-related. There is a lot to be said for this, since you can't just use the feedback system for flaming people.
(What do you think?)
If fraud is proven against the seller then they are booted period.
What exactly constitutes proof? Is it hard (and fool-proof!) to verify?
If a buyer can't complete their first 10 transactions without receiving a NPB then they are booted period.
This sounds good also.
I am copying everything in this thread to my colleagues. Thanks to all for the very valuable and fun discussion.
posted on February 16, 2001 04:02:17 PM new
Thank you Michelle, now how many times have you heard me say that!
Folks this is a serious thread about a serious subject. This thread is not about Bidbay and their particular problems. There are many other threads available for that subject.
I would appreciate posts be made to the thread questions, This is not about bashing! Period.
Now with that said, Maria, and others I appreciate your responses and info. any comments from the other online pioneers?
posted on February 16, 2001 04:02:43 PM new
wow, worth saying twice?? lol
I didnt think it was but had seen someone else do it, however they made it in BOLD, was the the difference? Thank you and I apologize
posted on February 16, 2001 04:16:02 PM new
Populissima,
Thank you for your reply. I agree you think about the site in the long run and what is best for the buyer and seller. Alot of people have their heads in the clouds and cant look down on the little guy, that they are so quick to judge.
posted on February 16, 2001 04:56:50 PM new
Hi Maria,
thanks for the comments.
I'll try to address all of your questions.
#1 Verification:
I agree we are an instant gratification socieity. It used to take 30 minutes to cook a t.v. dinner in a conventional oven but you will find me standing over a microwave screaming "hurry" now when it only take 5-10 minutes..LOL
The method of verification I offered is only one. You of course could go with credit card, or bank account verification as well.
It may be a little time consuming, and a little troublesome for a few but I think in the long run sellers and buyers alike would be glad knowing things like this are in place. If you read any of the eBay message boards that is one of the biggest complaints. You are required to have a CC to sell, but no verification period for buyers.
I think eventually over time this would work for a site. It would be seen as a plus by serious sellers and that would increase listings bringing buyers.
#2 FVF's
I'm glad you are charging something. I'm afraid when sites don't charge anything I don't see that as a well thought out business model. Charging a FVF at least gives me a seller confidence that you will do your part to bring in buyers so you can make your commission.
#3 Tier Fee Program:
I like that you offer serious sellers an incentive to list more than 100 auctions. However I have seen this be abused on other sites.
I have my own question regarding this. Some sellers just don't have enough product to list 100 auctions what measures has your company taken place that would keep a seller from listing 50 real auctions, and then 50 nickel or dime baseball card auctions just in order to qualify for the free listings?
As far as simplicity of your program do you mean simplicity for the company to manage the program or simplicity for the seller?
It seems that you would still have to monitor total auctions listed in order to issue credit. I don't see how difficult it would be to break that down into maybe just 3 tiered programs. Instead of basing it on $ amount sold, base it on feedback. You move up the tier based on feedback accrued.
#4 Incentive programs for buyers.
In all honesty I don't have any ideas for buyer incentives. My point was that I don't think a company should focus it's advertisements, or contests etc on sellers. If advertisement or contests bring in bidders it is up to us as sellers to keep them there by offering quality product and excellent customer service. Our reward should be in our sales.
5. Feedback program.
Right now you are right this would probably involve a great deal of administration. But this would bring me to ask you another question since I've only visited your site once and have not sold there.
How does your company handle deadbeat complaints from sellers?
Or fraud complaints from buyers?
It seems if you do handle any of these things you are already involved to a degree adminstratively. The scenarious I put forth involve what I would call verifiable complaints. A buyer has proof of payment and shipper does not have proof of shipping, or buyer cannot prove payment but seller has EOA notices etc requesting payment.
If a seller does a poor job at keeping records and cannot prove that they shipped their item then that reflects on that sellers performance. The same goes for a buyer.
This is just an idea on how to stop retalitory feedback, I'm sure a better one will come along.
I just don't think it's right if a seller issues an NPB and negs a buyer for non payment that buyer can in turn neg the seller.
I also don't think it's right if a buyer pays the seller on time and receives shoddy product, inaccuratley described product etc that if they need to neg the seller that that seller can in turn retaliate with a negative.
I for one would like to see a site address this problem.
Regarding there only being feedback left for sellers and it being transactional.
I believe all transaction should only be transaction related but also feel it should go both ways. I like to know what kind of person I might be dealing with when I see bids on my items.
And as far as sellers being booted for fraud I think if charges are brought against a seller by either a law enforcement agency or the us postal service and they are found guilty and it was a transaction that occured on your site that seller should be booted.
Also if there are a number of complaints regarding one seller and fraud that seller should be booted.
Right now at eBay as long as a seller maintains a decent negative to feedback ratio a seller could still defraud a number of buyers each month without fear of being NARU'd.
I appreciate your interest in what is being posted on these threads and will investigate your site a little more thoroughly.
I am also looking forward to the discussion on this thread continuing.
posted on February 16, 2001 06:06:26 PM new
Bill: Thank you for starting this post. I hope some of the other sites come aborad so we can see what thay have to say. Did you invite them?
I agree with all that AG2 had to say. I like the newer sites that are not as well established as E-bay to allow free basic vanilla listing only. I would expect to pay and want to pay a FVF. I also expect to pay for any improvements on my listing (bold, special feature etal). If there is no revenue for the site how can they support me with better improvements.
I do have a problem with the tier. I can go buy 1000 widgets from a wholesaler and list each one and meet the qualification and have little work involved. I think your Antique & Collectible (not new) dealers should be reviewed on an individual basis or given other considerations. As a dealer I do not do the auction sites full time. I also have a shop, web site & do shows. All are needed for many of the items my partner & I sell (Period Furniture & Accessories). We also have the early transfer china, sterling and such. Each of our auctions are unique with some basic TOS stuff.
I have to take offense at two of your posts in this thread in which you take aim at sellers of 5 or 10 cent sports cards.
I sell these.
I also sell $5.00 - $50.00 sports cards right alongside the common cards.
Why do I spend as much time preparing and posting a 5-cent card as I do a $50 card?
Because not everyone needs the $50 card to complete a set or collection.
When I was actively collecting sports cards, I tended to go with complete sets. Often, this was difficult, because I would not be able to find the one common card I needed to complete the set! Literally EVERYONE had the star cards, but finding that one elusive common player was like searching for the Holy Grail - nobody had it.
I think you are considering only the price of the card, and not the collectibility of the card, when you dismiss sellers of these items.
Moving the example up a few notches, suppose you were collecting Star Trek episodes on video. You have all but one episode, and you can't find that one episode anywhere. Then, one day, you find the episode you need to complete your collection on an auction site...but it's lumped together with 4 other episodes that you already have and don't want to buy! Do you pass it up? I did...I'd rather wait for the one episode that I need than buy 5 episodes "lumped together".
Same principle applies to any collectible...why would a collector buy something "lumped together", as you say common sports cards should be, instead of waiting for the one collectible that they need for a complete set?
Again, that is the only argument I have with any of your comments on these threads - don't mistake the low price of a collectible with its collectibility.
Apologies for getting off topic, but I had to address AG2's comments, and perhaps give him another perspective.
posted on February 16, 2001 07:09:17 PM new
I'm sorry if you took offense at my post I have heard the reasons behind these auctions more times than I care to recall.
The question I have to ask is would you be selling these same cards at these prices if there was a listing fee involved?
No I'm sure you wouldn't. You would combine them in either large or small lots.
I was an avid sports card collector for many years and as a collector I know that cards that usually find themselves in that price range are either commons are low end stars and in collector shops or at conventions were usually located in a box to be sorted through by the buyer. Most sellers wouldn't even take the time to throw them into a binder.
And as far as spending as much time preparing a nickel or dime card auction as you would a $50.00 auction I can't comprehend this. It seems like a waste of time. Just my opinion.
Most nickel and dime card auctions I have seen usually don't even have a picture of the card in the listing. I am not saying this is the case in your auctions I am just stating my experience. They usually are very basic, title and description only.
It is my opinion that these auctions do nothing but clutter up an auction site unless they are put into a proper category like Sports-->Trading Cards-->Common Cards which could then even be broken down into more categories like which sport it is.
The problem is keeping them in their category.
It is also my opinion based on my experience that usually these auctions are set up for the sole purpose to increase feedback on a site that counts transactional feedback but does not limit it to uniques.
For $20.00 I can achieve 400 feedback in a matter of days by bidding on nothing but nickel auctions. 200 feedback bidding on dime auctions.
Once again it is my opinion and based on my experiences that this is a manipulation of the feedback system. Especially when sellers use feeedback earned this way to advertise their honesty.
I have probably opened up a can of worms with that statement but it is my opinion and how I feel.
As far as collectability vs. price? If these items were so collectible they wouldn't be considered commons and priced in this range.
Once again I'm sorry if this offends you but I am basing this on my own experience with collecting cards and at a certain site and not necessarily others.
posted on February 16, 2001 08:43:39 PM new
WOW, was so impressed with Maria's response that I went to Popula to see if this was the site for me. Alas, another porn welcome here site. No thanks.
posted on February 16, 2001 09:01:22 PM new
djaythree, I have to agree with AG2. I am also a baseball card collector. been collecting for fifteen years and have built a collection that is worth more than both of my cars put together.
Face it, the real reason that people list five cent cards on free auction sites is to pad their feedback. The only people bidding on them are people that are trying to do the same.
I buy a lot of cards online, but will not even take a second of my time to browse through the free sites for sports collectibles. They are littered with these nickel cards for the sole purpose of building feedback.
Those of you that are dillusioned enough to think that people are bidding on these cards because they actually want or need them need to have your heads examined.
posted on February 16, 2001 09:09:19 PM new
Okay folks, let try to stay on topic! I understand the passion that everyone feels with their respective opinions on sales of cards. But I want this to stay on topic.
I emailed probably about 15 diff. auctionsites and asked them to join us. If this turns into a circus then they'll just pass us by. I'm not even sure if they'll join us, but lets all give this a try for a productive and interesting thread.
PuppyPumoo thank you for the idea of asking some sites to join us.
posted on February 16, 2001 10:09:58 PM new
Hello all, wow this is really fun. It's very rare for us to be able to talk with such a wide variety of sellers. Thanks AuctionWatch-!
AG2, thanks for your excellent reply. I have just a few comments:
I agree we are an instant gratification society. It used to take 30 minutes to cook a t.v. dinner in a conventional oven but you will find me standing over a microwave screaming "hurry" now when it only take 5-10 minutes..LOL
You microwave?! I bow to your gourmet prowess … I have been living on Valentine chocolates.
The method of verification I offered is only one. You of course could go with credit card, or bank account verification as well.
I'm a bit of a fanatic about privacy. I have steadfastly opposed Popula's gathering any personal info we don't absolutely need. No matter how careful we are about security, no one can be absolutely certain there won't be hacker attacks, or that someone won't make a mistake and accidentally compromise customer information. And the reports of people's bank accounts being summarily frozen by some of the online payment services are just mind-boggling.
I am confident that a safe solution will come along.
[I]It may be a little time consuming, and a little troublesome for a few but I think in the long run sellers and buyers alike would be glad knowing things like this are in place. If you read any of the eBay message
boards that is one of the biggest complaints. You are required to have a CC to sell, but no verification period for buyers.[/I]
I am interested to hear that this is such a hot topic. Are you finding an increasing number of deadbeats? Is that the main reason?
I have my own question regarding this. Some sellers just don't have enough product to list 100 auctions what measures has your company taken place that would keep a seller from listing 50 real auctions, and then 50 nickel or dime baseball card auctions just in order to qualify for the free listings?
This seems more like a question of category integrity. We monitor our categories closely to try to ensure category integrity, reserving the right to move or to close any auction that doesn't fit. So if someone can sell baseball cards inexpensively and at a profit that he is happy with, we have no problem with them using Popula to do this, so long as they use the appropriate categories for their listings. (Popula does not offer this type of merchandise at the moment.)
To put it another way, all Popula's sellers so far run legitimate businesses, and no one to our knowledge has tried to take advantage of Popula's policies in any way. We feel that the vast majority of sellers are honest business operators. In any case, I can't fathom why anyone would continue to post large numbers of auctions that have no chance of concluding successfully.
As far as simplicity of your program do you mean simplicity for the company to manage the program or simplicity for the seller?
Both, I think. Sellers are so busy and have so little time to manage their businesses as it is, we are somewhat disinclined to offer benefits that require more than a few moments' study to understand and use. 100 = Free is just easy for people (including me) to remember.
[I]It seems that you would still have to monitor total auctions listed in order to issue credit. I don't see how difficult it would be to break that down into maybe just 3 tiered programs. Instead of basing it on $
amount sold, base it on feedback. You move up the tier based on feedback accrued.[/I]
I have to give this more thought-I find your ideas most interesting. But creating a pecuniary motive for obtaining feedback, on the face of it, sounds like it might be a mistake.
How does your company handle deadbeat complaints from sellers?
At the seller's request, Popula refunds seller fees paid on deadbeat auctions, gives an extra free listing for the affected item, and sends an email to the bidder requesting action. Popula also provides phone contact information to each party to facilitate contact on request. And of course, we encourage turning the deadbeat into a Rat by leaving a negative comment.
Or fraud complaints from buyers?
This is kind of embarrassing, but we haven't had one yet. It's something we would take far more seriously, of course, if someone were actually getting ripped off. Yikes.
[I]It seems if you do handle any of these things you are already involved to a degree adminstratively. The scenarious I put forth involve what I would call verifiable complaints. A buyer has proof of payment and
shipper does not have proof of shipping, or buyer cannot prove payment but seller has EOA notices etc requesting payment.[/I]
Well, yes. By all means, we already have a small amount of administrative overhead in this area. I'm thinking of the exceptions; for instance, I can imagine an unscrupulous person claiming never to have received the goods when he really did. Proof of receipt is an expense many sellers don't care to take on; understandably so, when you consider that most transactions go smoothly. This is the sort of issue that keeps me awake at night, actually. It only ever happened to me once as a seller--and I only suspect, I can't be sure. As an administrator, though, it might take a few instances of the same thing happening before you cottoned on.
If a seller does a poor job at keeping records and cannot prove that they shipped their item then that reflects on that sellers performance. The same goes for a buyer.
It's mainly the "grey areas" that worry me. Where you might have just one person's word against the other, maybe falsified documents or some other weird thing. In order to make policy, we try to think ahead to every possible worst-case scenario we can before we commit ourselves. On this issue the way isn't really clear yet, though your perspective is a valuable one.
I just don't think it's right if a seller issues an NPB and negs a buyer for non payment that buyer can in turn neg the seller.
Very true. It's clearly not.
I also don't think it's right if a buyer pays the seller on time and receives shoddy product, inaccurately described product etc that if they need to neg the seller that that seller can in turn retaliate with a negative.
To me, this could be more of a caveat emptor issue. In your first example, the buyer didn't abide by the rules of the site and is clearly in the wrong. In the second, the buyer might not have done his own homework properly; for instance, he might have assumed wrongly that the seller knew how to identify a first edition. Or again, either party might have been deliberately lied to and misled.
On the whole I think it's important that bidders know they're taking a certain risk with a new seller and really ask a lot of questions, read the feedback and so on. So often you find that information was available that would have averted the problem, had the bidder cared to look.
I for one would like to see a site address this problem.
Well, we're trying--! I will add that we are far more flexible than some other sites, especially regarding very clear mistakes in feedback. For example, if a comment is clearly positive but the author accidentally mashed the "negative" button, we have no problem changing this.
I believe all feedback should only be transaction related but also feel it should go both ways. I like to know what kind of person I might be dealing with when I see bids on my items.
Yes. But if there were a guaranteed payment system on the site, so that payment took place automatically at auction end, you wouldn't need to see that information as much. Half.com really shines in this area. I have a lot of worries about Paypal, but so much about it is fantastic. (Another subject I'd like to hear your views on!)
In any case, we are looking into a lot of different possible options for sellers.
[I]And as far as sellers being booted for fraud I think if charges are brought against a seller by either a law enforcement agency or the us postal service and they are found guilty and it was a transaction that
occured on your site that seller should be booted.[/I]
I'm just wondering exactly what kind of documents would prove this to us satisfactorily, and who would submit them. I expect we would know quite a lot about such a case by the time it got to that point, but would worry that we had identified the wrong party as the "bad guy". That would really be terrible.
Also if there are a number of complaints regarding one seller and fraud that seller should be booted.
Provisionally agree with this. But again, I worry that one disgruntled person and his friends in different cities might take against someone and really wreck his business. We have to be prepared against this type of problem.
Thanks for the chat! Thoroughly enjoyed it.
Best to all
Maria Bustillos
Popula
http://www.popula.com
[ edited by populissima on Feb 16, 2001 10:13 PM ]
posted on February 16, 2001 11:44:42 PM new
Greetings All,
Jamie from Pootah Free Auctions here. It's 11:30 at night, I probably shouldn't be posting this late - who knows I may be making a public apology tomorrow But we'll see how it goes.
I personally judge the sucess of our site by the success stories of our users. Any of you keeping an eye on DTMagazine's auction counts probably know that our auction numbers haven't really increased, and to me that's not a sign of success.
As I stated to Bill in reply to his email to me inviting me to join this thread, we are run by Auction Sellers (exactly like most of you). In my opinion, our site is successful because we have sustained sales in our Jewelry section over the past month equal to what we were making on Yahoo! with the same number of items posted, etc - without the fees.
So why have our auction counts hung around 5,000 - 6,000? In a word (and this is not pettiness, jealousness, or any other emotion speaking, this is an analytical opinion), I would say that it's because we're "pacing ourselves".
To us, stating our intentions to remain free is one thing - but keeping them is _the_ most important thing. That's fair enough, but one can not run a free website - of any sort - and expect instant success. The reason for that is because if you invest too much money in advertising, getting a return on that investment becomes too big an issue.
The same holds true with other costly facets of a website. In my opinion, what some users would determine "the winner of the race" (whom I will not mention, but users who see my point should be clear who it is), probably hasn't planned too far ahead in their future.
They're hosting images, they're going to start advertising. Sure this sounds great to a seller, free image hosting, no listing fees, lots of traffic. But as I posted to another forum, image hosting costs an awful lot - and you have the long term future of your website to think about.
I admire Popula because they are charging fees and making it - and that's difficult. Free sites automatically attract more attention than pay sites. But when a site offers so much, for "free" - as the relative of two full-time online auction sellers that worries me. Just how long will it be until the investors of such a company get itchy about their returns? The users will see it as getting burnt, screwed, or any other term you might want to call for it. I look at it as getting suckered. There's a price for everything, and no one's going to offer anything for a charity.
I've been 100% honest about our website. Pootah does _not_ yet turn a profit. Our income comes from that we sell things on our online auctions site, and that's how we pay our mortgages, overheads, etc.
I'm getting a little off-topic here, but what I'm trying to elaborate on is that I do not see the start-up sites who's figures have shot into the hundreds of thousands as being any more successful than us, because I know (from simple understanding of the costs of bandwidth) that they probably can't keep it up for too long.
I view our website as successful, and as long as our sales maintain so that we can make money, and others can as well, I will continue to do so. Even if our auction count hangs around 5,500 for the next 6 months.
That's the first issue that was raised out of the way. I'll possibly contribute to some of the other issues tomorrow. Thanks for listening to my long-winded opinions
posted on February 17, 2001 09:48:17 AM new
Last comment on the sports cards, then I'll crawl away to list...
Okay, guys, I see your points...but I don't do it to pad my feedback.
I'm djay3 everywhere but here (actually, I was djaythree on Yawho, but they don't exist for me anymore), and I've sold everything from sports cards to videos to books to old 3-D viewers...
I take the same care with everything I list - at least one photo, usually two (front and back). As far as the common sports cards, I have two buyers that followed my listings from YaWho to Bidville, simply because I DO list sports card commons! I even have want lists from both of them, and almost every player these two buyers are looking for are common players - they simply like to collect them because they went to the same school that the player played football, basketball, etc. I think they followed me because I DO take the time to scan each card, front and back, stick them into a top loader, and treat the nickel cards just like I do the expensive ones.
Each card I sell is from my personal collection - I'm not a sports card "dealer". Every video I listed on eBay or half.com came from my personal collection - it was time to weed a few out. Every book I've listed anywhere came from my personal collection...you get the idea. I sell from a collector's view - I know what I would want to see in an auction description, and I provide it...but, apparently, it works!
700+ feedback on eBay, 118+ on Yahoo, 11(so far) on Bidville...I must be doing something right!
And, no, I wouldn't list common cards at all if there was a listing fee involved. I'd just leave them in the storage boxes for my daughter to open up 20-30 years down the line...
So, while I value your opinions, I completely disagree with them this time.
Now, I go back into listing mode, and promise to stay on topic now...
posted on February 17, 2001 11:09:41 AM new
Thank you Jamie for your views and please come back! Your views from an owners perspective is important to this discussion!
posted on February 17, 2001 05:06:25 PM new
Hi Jaime from Pootah.
Thank you for your honest post.
I agree with the pacing concept as we know there are some companies who are attempting to go IPO which is normally a 5 year process within a year of start up.
It's nice to know a site isn't going to come in here and pee on our heads and tell us it's raining...LOL...sorry for that analogy but it was the quickest one I could think of.
Now regarding Maria of Popula you asked this question regarding deadbeat bidders:
"I am interested to hear that this is such a hot topic. Are you finding an increasing number of deadbeats? Is that the main reason?"
I personally have had only 2 deadbeat bidders in over 185 transactions on eBay. Anytime I file an NPB and fee request and bidder still does not pay I always leave negative feedback and you can check to see how many negs I have left.
But I have seen a lot of sellers on eBay complain about deadbeat bidders and I know they are there and expect to have my fair share of them.
On a free site I participated in for the same amount of time I experienced maybe 2 deadbeat bidders but once again I have heard other seller complain numerous times.
Regarding PayPal. Even with them now charging fees I still find this program a blessing for both buyers and sellers.
I love the immediacy of it all. I have some buyers paying for auctions within minutes of receiving their EOA notices.
As a buyer I made a big bonehead mistake on two auctions this month.
I mailed out two payments with only $.33 postage not to mention my cable payment and rent...LOL
Anyway I am now picking up the pieces.
If the sellers I was dealing with accepted PayPal this wouldn't have even been an issue. I know it was my bonehead mistake but they would have had their money within hours of receiving my EOA as I am constantly online and my items would probably already be here.
Well I appreciate the discussion and thank the sites who are getting involved.
posted on February 17, 2001 06:01:18 PM new
Thanks to Bill for inviting us to join the thread. This is Ryan from 321Gone.
Well, over the past two years, we have viewed the success of our online auction web site many different ways. First, it was just to get the site up and running, generating members and traffic. Then once we generated a strong membership base and hosted many transactions, we realized our first round of funding would not last forever. And, with the stock market sliding, no venture capitalists were going to back a small competitor of the most successful dotcom in the world. We then decided to redesign our web site and changed our free policy to that of charging fees. We knew we could only do this if our new redesigned site was superior in functionality and value added features to that of our competitors. We have tried, and I am excited to hear some comments from users on our new site. Thus far, all posts on our message boards have been very positive.
And now here we are, having to view success in yet another light. We have accomplished the first two, and now realize we need to continue growing our site to generate more traffic and more auctions. As the saying goes, “you have to spend money to make money.” Now is the time when our advertising is kicking in and many of our partnerships are flourishing. To be honest with all of you, (after being there myself) I don’t understand how the free auction sites expect to make it. Any ideas from anyone?
To address a couple of issues from AG2. The credit card member verification is the most reliable and efficient way to verify that the people registering for your site are actually who they say they are. I can honestly say we researched every option available, and this, along providing an ISP issued email, is the only way we could track down a member in cases of fraud. Please also note that the verification process is handled by a third party (VeriSign) and your credit card is neither stored nor charged by 321Gone. (I am sure other sites have the same policy). We just wanted to make our community as safe as possible. Although we have had a few discouraged members, we still feel it is the right decision.
Coinsunlimited: We don’t allow adult related or illegal items on 321Gone. Although you must be 18 years old to join, we realize that there is no age limit for people to surf the Internet and browse our site.
Last but not least, it would be great to hear from other users in the AW community on how they view the success of online auction sites.
posted on February 17, 2001 06:52:05 PM new
Hello All,
I would like to thank the AW members for starting and inviting us to this thread. It is also nice to see peers like Jamie of Pootah, Ryan of 321Gone and Maria of Popula also posting here.
Bill has raised a couple of interesting questions and we at DutchBid.com believe that there is only one answer to the first... the only way to consider an auction site successful is to look at the success of our sellers.
Online auctioning is a business. Sure, there are a lot of folks that sell on the Internet as a hobby, but when money exchanges hands it is still considered business.
DutchBid.com does not charge for basic listings and we have no plans to do so, however, starting in March, we will be charging final value fees (or commissions) on all items that are successfully sold at our site. There will also be small fees for enhancing your listings with our optional featured auctions, bolding, and banner lines, but we are optimistic that the bulk of our revenue will come from the final value fees of items that are sold.
With that in mind, it is clear that if our sellers do not succeed then neither will DutchBid.
Bill, your second question is probably most important. You asked how we are going to achieve the success we have just discussed. Well, Bill, there are many ways of achieving success, but keep in mind that Internet advertising just is not what it used to be. Actually, dot com advertising in all mediums is proving to be much less successful than it was in the past.
Unless you are a VC backed dot com that can afford many multi-million dollar branding campaigns, conventional advertising will not bring in the buyers. DutchBid has come to the conclusion that it is the strategic partnering of various web sites that is the most effective way to bring success to our sellers. While strategic partnering is not always an inexpensive method either, it certainly produces more results than banner ads that receive a less than 1% click-through rate.
There is a reason that we refer to the Internet as a World Wide Web and that is because it was meant to weave information, products, and services in a seamless manner. It seems that this type of thinking was ignored over the past few years, thus the deaths of many a dot com company.
So, Bill, to answer your second question, DutchBid.com has spent the last few months building strategic alliances and partnerships and we will implement and continue to build upon these relationships in the coming weeks and months.
I also am a firm believer in the corporate merger. There are a handful of sites attempting to take a piece of eBay's 90% market share. DutchBid is one of those companies. It is my belief that the combining of sites, features, and members is one of the best ways to achieve this. I predict that the coming months will see the marriages of more than a few ambitious online auction sites.
It is obvious that there is a need for some viable alternatives to the corporate giants and I am enlightened to see the auction users put forth their best effort to see us and our competitive peers succeed.
posted on February 17, 2001 08:37:41 PM new
A big Thanks to Ryan and Eric! I'm glad that 2 more auction pioneers checked in and gave all of us an opportunity to see your grass roots effort. Please don't be strangers to this thread and continue to weigh in on this thread.
Ryan ~~ Thanks for your nice email. I have responded.
Okay, we are still waiting for a few more sites to check in. I would like to thank all for keeping this thread on topic, Lets keep up the good work.
To all that have asked questions and made interesting comments, keep it coming!
I do have a couple more questions to ask but I need a few more sites to check in.
posted on February 18, 2001 01:30:31 PM new
Hello Bill,
Thanks for asking Just Glass to participate on your current thread.
Funny you should ask this question. It's one I have been asked many times by many publications. I wrote 2 books on online auctioning (both out of print at this time)
and my reply hasn't changed in 3 yrs.
Alot of people believe the "Build it and they will come" saying. Hardly the truth on the Internet. There was a time when you could search Yahoo for online auctions, and there were only a handful. I believe at this time there are over 2,000 online auctions. Most doing poorly, even though their software might be more reliable and easily mapped than others.
There is really little need at this point in the game for new ones. The 3 big players (and we all know who they are) hold the top slots for the all around Person to person, business to business, business to person auction slots; and people have only so much time a day to spend searching them.
However, for those of us who have found an untapped niche, there is a little sunshine. Take my site for example....Just Glass came about because I am a total glass nut. I never met a piece of glass I didn't like. 5 years ago I started moderating the art-glass discussion group and have been a subscriber to other online glass groups. The amount of great information that unfolds from such groups on a weekly basis is tremendous. I started thinking one day, wouldn't it be great if you could create an auction site for JUST glass enthusiasts. If they type in the word Tiffany in the search engine they are going to get just Tiffany glass. Not Tiffany baseball cards, Tiffany Amber Thiesen posters, Tiffany sterling etc. Our motto in the beginning was "No Barbies, No Beanies, No BS....Just Glass" and that was very fitting. Because of my glass affilitions, I had an instant market for users.
Being small has its benefits too. You can watch the site for fakes, things in the wrong categories, non glass related items etc. It kept users coming back for more if they always found what they were looking for, and easily.
We have since day one had ZERO tolerance for fraud. In the 3 yrs we have been open we have only had to remove about 5 people. All bidders. As it stands, we haven't had any bad sellers. I think being a "community" keeps the bad people away. Not to say it couldn't happen, but big brother is watching.
Another thing we always thought was important was customer service. Someone asks you a question, has a complaint or can't find something, they want answers,and they want them NOW. All questions get answered in 10 hours or less. Usually alot less. We have a group of great customer service reps and if they don't know the answer, they find it.
Lastly and most importantly - being small you need to offer more than just stuff for auction or for sale. It won't take them long to scan thru your merchandise - so what will keep them there? Content! Offering show information, auction reports, online price guides, articles, photos etc... It will keep them stopping back often, and referring their friends. The more content you offer, the more it looks like you are more than just another online auction. We used to call ourselves Just Glass Auctions, but now we are Just Glass. We like to consider ourselves an information portal for glass enthusiasts.
We are free. We started out charging fees and commissions. Around 1.5 yrs ago we decided that the best way to stay competitive in our market was to offer free listings which would generate more traffic, and inturn allow us to sell advertising space to help generate revenue. We now tout 10,000 items for bid/for sale daily. We have turned a profit and have for quite some time. Are we going to retire on this profit? Not anytime soon, but we are having a good time with what we do and that's all that matters (to us).
Wow, I am long winded. I hope this answers some of your questions. Feel free to post any others, and I'll try to get back to you quickly.
