posted on February 19, 2001 12:40:38 PM new
OK - if we want this site to succeed, something needs to be done to nip the bad sellers in the bud. I am thinking of people like those who are currently listing illegal, homemade copies of television series.
eBay has SafeHarbour, which is hit and miss. mostly miss because their drones know more than everyone else.
Does BidVille have any provision for reporting illegal auctions and having these bad auctions removed and the sellers' wrist slapped?
I could not find anything specific on their site and I have emailed them. Thought in the meantime, someone here may know how to go about doing this ...
posted on February 19, 2001 12:50:23 PM new
RB,
I emailed them on this subject a couple of weeks ago, and they did reply. They have nothing as yet. But according to their reply and their notice in their weekly newsletter, they intend to solicit volunteer members for the policing job. Have said more info will be forthcoming soon.
posted on February 19, 2001 01:49:49 PM new
Why not just live and let live? Unless you are a representative of a television studio, what do you care? Some old TV shows are not available on tape, CD, or DVD, and I would like to buy some episodes if I ever saw them available.
Neighborhood watch groups make me sick - what is this, Nazi Germany? Why should you care if someone sells bootleg copies of the Waltons or whatever they are offering. If you don't want to buy it, don't. Some people will and if the companies that own the rights to the product in question care to do so, they will go after and prosecute the sellers.
Yahoo auctions started this crap on their site and now they are at the mercy of every narrow minded group that demands that things they don't believe in, be banned so others cannot acquire it. I personally don't care for Nazi or KKK memorabilia, but I can understand why some people do collect it and the historical significance of it.
I'd hate to see another site, like Bidville, get mired down with all the whiners and crybabies emailing them everyday and screaming that certain sellers are selling Devil worshipping candles, Mein Kampf, or homemade copies of the 8 is Enough TV show.
Why not mind your own business and let the people that want items like these (short of specific items like illegal narcotics, automatic weapons, and the like) purchase/sell them?
If your argument is that it deteriorates the site in general, I disagree since the only people likely to stumble upon something like this are those looking for it and if you do find it in a search by mistake, just don't look - simple isn't? ?
[ edited by comicscardsandmore on Feb 19, 2001 01:52 PM ]
posted on February 19, 2001 02:07:36 PM new
Why is it that everytime someone comes along and asks a question about stuff that is illegal to be sold, someone else comes along and starts comparing it to Nazi Germany? This is a very childish retort to a real problem.
For your info comics (etc), I have a long time vested interest in this type of bootleger, and whether you like it or not, I fully intend to offer my expertise to BidVille to eradicate the scourge of bootleggers who are currently listing on their site.
Also for your information, the fact that a television series is not available on tape or DVD does not make it any more legal to sell home made copies.
Finally, for your information, the "companies" who own the copyrights DO go after these sellers ... all they need is a little impetus, and I (and a few others) are more than willing to provide it. I can point you to at least 3 ex-eBayers who have lost all of their tapes, their taping equipment, and who have had to turn in the names of their sources and all of the people who bought stuff from them.
Laugh if you want, ignore the letters from the lawyers if you want, but just remember that these guys really don't have much of a sense of ha ha. The law is on their side and if you piss them off, they can fine you and/or put you in jail.
Try reading the 'fine print' that shows up in the end credits on all of these television series that you think are OK to be copied and sold, then you decide if it's worth it.
eBay doesn't deal well with bootleggers because everytime they shoot one down, they lose money. A free site like BidVille has nothing to lose, and in fact, they have a lot to gain if they can show some leadership in getting rid of the illegal items being sold.
This has nothing to do with banned items, but rather theft from the people who create and market their products. I personally know a lot of these people ...
posted on February 19, 2001 02:32:19 PM new
I never defended whether selling the tapes was legal or illegal but whether it affected you as an individual and the problems that tattle tales cause far outstrip the problems of vendors selling such goods.
As far as the comparison to Nazi Germany (or Communistid Russia, if you prefer), it is a good analysis since those governments first convinced their citizens to turn one another in for "crimes" rather than let the police do their job. It is not childish, it's just that the tattle tales don't want to be compared to the same kind of people that turned Jews in simply for being Jewish. It hurts doesn't it?
I won't say that selling bootlegs is good, but if a specific television show or movie is not available in any legitimate recorded form, what's a fan or collector to do except buy a bootleg or do without? The main problem as I see it, is that just about everyone has a specific theme or thing that they feel the world can do without and some of those people would just love to have the opportunity to deny other people of enjoying/purchasing/ owning these items. Where does it stop?
To be quite honest, people like you make me sick. You probably were a tattle tale in grade school, had your ass beat several times for it, and still didn't learn your lesson about minding one's own business. If it doesn't affect you (or society) directly, pass it on by and get on with your own life (if you have one) and leave others to there lives.
I can understand if someone is selling something like kiddie porn (which I abhor), but what about the people that say that Advanced Dungeon & Dragons games should be banned simply because they BELIEVE that it promotes Satan worship? There is no convincing them otherwise, so why bother or even give them the opportunity to try and stop the sales of it through a 'Neighborhood Watch'?
Censorship is like a contagious virus, if it gets a foothold, it's almost impossible to stop.
posted on February 19, 2001 02:49:29 PM new
[I can't believe I am really responding to this ... boredom must be setting in], but here goes:
"As far as the comparison to Nazi Germany (or Communistid Russia, if you prefer)"
I prefer neither thanks, because there is not even a hint of similarity here. I do know that the only people who like to make these kinds of camparisions are very young and have no idea of what they are talking about though ...
"what's a fan or collector to do except buy a bootleg or do without?'
I'd chose the latter ... A true fan, could off course, expend a little energy and join a trading circle where s/he could do tape-for-tape trades for stuff s/he is looking for. This is allowed and is how I have managed to build my tv collection to 3500 tapes during the past 16 years. And, I have never once offered to sell anything that I did not have the owner's written permission to do so. (copyright owner, not the person who owns the tape!!)
"some of those people would just love to have the opportunity to deny other people of enjoying/purchasing/ owning these items.'
And others would deny the creaters and producers from reaping the benefit of their endeavours ...
"Where does it stop?"
It probably doesn't, but if I can even slow it down a bit, I'll be satisfied ...
"You probably were a tattle tale in grade school,"
Nope ...
"had your ass beat several times for it,"
Nope ...
"If it doesn't affect you"
It does ...
"and get on with your own life"
I am, thank you ...
"I can understand if someone is selling something like kiddie porn (which I abhor),"
So, what you are saying is that is OK to ban stuff that you abhor, but not stuff that I abhor (and that is also illegal).
"what about the people that say that Advanced Dungeon & Dragons games should be banned simply because they BELIEVE that it promotes Satan worship?"
posted on February 19, 2001 03:05:08 PM new
Rather than continue this discussion (and I use the term loosely) I'd like to suggest to any and all auction site owners out there that may someday be faced with censorship and having to defend/enforce it through a 'Neighborhood Watch' or similar set-up, that you make all the people that whine about specific auctions/sales being made that involve items they think should be banned (not illegal items, as outlined previously), that you require that the whiners supply their complete name, address, and contact phone number so that the person that has been "turned in" can be informed of who the "whistle blower" was. After all, they have the right to know their accuser, don't they? When faced with having to own up to their convictions, most tattle tales show their true cowardly colors and will withdraw the complaint.
It's a shame that you had to start in with the ridiculing and comic book references, RB, but I'm not surprised. In fact, I expected it sooner or later and you didn't let me down. Now you better stop reading this and do some auction serches on Brady Bunch bootleg videos and make sure you put those horrendous bootleggers behind bars where they deserve to be, right?
Just be glad you live in a country that allows freedom of speech since if there were more people like you in it, we wouldn't have it, but then there wouldn't be much need for people like you - a real paradox, isn't it?
posted on February 19, 2001 03:06:37 PM new
tinyheroes ... I don't know. This discussion is not about D&D or censorship. It is about getting some advice on how to report law breakers on BidVille
posted on February 19, 2001 03:25:44 PM new
What I think BIDVILLE NW should be more concerned with is Spammers and Fraud. I would be more concerned to making it a site that is more usable for buyers and sellers. Spam turns people off, Fraud really runs people off. Both give the site a bad name.
Now it would be debatable as to whether the aforementioned pirate tapes, etc would fall under the heading of fraud. (I tend to lean towards yes)
However, These items are sold with impunity on most every street corner in most large cities. I therefore think as far as protecting their copywrites, that is up to the owners of the copywrites to take the appropriate action. Either through the auction site, or by direct contact with the seller.
If there were to be any NW action against it, it should only be in the context of fraud against the buyer. IE: passing off inferior quality as top rate.
BTW there is now a club started by BIDVILLE users. Email me for the URL if you like.
posted on February 19, 2001 04:23:22 PM new
Jim ...
I agree with you 100% about the SPAMMERS, the scammers, and fraudulent sellers. I also believe that the sales of home made copies of television shows is fraud .... not just because it's against the law (we don't get to pick and chose the laws we want to follow ... our "elected officials" get to do that for us), but because in many cases the buyers have a higher expectation of what they think they just bought.
I cannot count the number of times I have had people email me and other members of my trading group warning us about the crap being sold on eBay and Yahoooooo, nor the number of times I have read complaints here about how lousy the copies were.
"Why didn't the decription say 3rd generation dubs", or
"you didn't tell me they were taped at EP", or
"how come you used cheap Wal Mart tapes?", or
"how come the teasers were cut off", or,
"you didn't tell me you get poor reception",
and worst of all,
"what's this email I just got from a Beverly Hills law firm all about?"
Of course, these buyers have no recourse except to blame the venue for allowing this stuff to be sold - they can't run to the cops and tell them that they bought something knowing it was illegal and then complain that they got ripped off!
Well, I guess they could, but that would be like using a personalized cheque to write the hold up note on.
The venue gets a bad rep. People who are trying to support the venue get fed up. They leave. The venue fails.
Now, wrt BidVille, I am not a seller, I don't want to join a co-op, and I am not a Pom Pom waver (all you need to do is read my posts!). But I am willing to do what I do best to help them succeed. It just so happens that my expertise is in video tapes ...
posted on February 19, 2001 09:50:22 PM new
These bootleg tapes are no different to blatently ripped off burned cd copies of expensive software programs.
And yes something should be done about it.
Too often these things look like they are the genuine product with screen shots snagged of the developers website and many people dont really know thay the real versions cost $100's of dollars.
Ebay has said no so these crooks so they think they can hide at the new free sites thinking they wont be caught.
http://www.lovepotions.net
posted on February 19, 2001 11:18:57 PM new
OK, let's say that you have someone selling tapes, how can you tell from their auction exactly what it is until you see feedback on the subject?
Or do you buy the tape to judge it for yourself?
My wife was looking all over for a copy of "The color Purple" We could not find it anywhere for over a six month period.
I came across one on Yahoo auctions, bought it for $12.00. She is ecstatic. The copy is fine, and I don't have to hear more about that.
But how do you tell?
Edited to add, BTW it was a previously viewed tape, but in excellent condition.
[ edited by jimhhow on Feb 19, 2001 11:20 PM ]
posted on February 20, 2001 04:56:15 AM new
Jim ... you ask
In your example, if your wife ended up getting a home made copy of "The Color Purple" that was faded and in mono sound, she'd be pretty pissed off. And, in spite of what lovepotions stated, eBay has no idea of what is legal and what isn't, they won't act on complaints or advice, and they would do nothing to help your wife get her money back.
Like I said, I have been involved in this for so many years that I can pick out the fraudulent copies almost immediately.
If you are looking at a listing for a tv series, ask the seller if the tape is an original factory release with the proper sleeve (artwork, synopsis, cast listing, even the FVI warnings etc.). If they tell you they "lost" the sleeve and the tape comes in a plain (pick a colour) plastic sleeve, pass it by. If they don't respond at all, pass it by.
There are many legitmate dealers who have purchased the rights to transfer old tv on film to video tape (e.g. Highway Patrol), and they are more than happy to respond to your queries.
But the key to avoid disappointment (and a possible order from a lawyer to turn in your tape), is to ask questions first
Good luck - there are a lot of legal cult tv eps out there ...
posted on February 20, 2001 05:53:51 AM new
Further to, here's a real life case:
Yesterday I located a listing for a television series. The listing stated that all episodes are included on 3 tapes, and were recorded at SP. As these eps, even excluding the commercials, would require more than 850 minutes of tape, I emailed the seller for clarification.
It turns out that she meant to say "recorded in EP".
Good thing no one bought this misrepresented (and btw, illegal) set of tapes. And, I doubt very much if the seller will bother to change the description.
It is this type of fraud that I am going after ...
PS - BidVille "customer service" has still not responded to my querie about how they intend to deal with fraudulent sellers, nor the others I sent them over a week ago
[ edited by RB on Feb 20, 2001 05:55 AM ]
posted on February 20, 2001 09:03:06 AM new
RB,
This morning I emailed them about a featured auction in Movies: General: Video,
becuse it had pictures of the video boxes cleary showing graphic and expilicit sex acts. I am not a prude, but feel that this kind a of display in a geberal movie area will turn potential bidders off from browsing.
They emailed me about a half hour later to tell me the offending video was removed.
So I emailed them 9 more, all by the same poster, all in general categories.
We shall see. I know they know who I am as I have invited them over to check out our BIDVILLE club. I don't know if that has anything to do with the response I get or not. I would hope that didn't enter into it.
posted on February 20, 2001 09:07:35 AM new
Hey, guess what? Ten minutes later they got the other 9. What response problem? J/K, I don't know why you don't get responses.
posted on February 20, 2001 10:10:33 AM new
I don't know why they are ignoring me
I just sent this one to them and will see what happens:
Dear BidVille:
Congratulations on your growing site. Like thousands of other on-line auction participants, I am delighted to see a new venue being made available. I registered about a month ago.
I have been following the discussions about your site on the AuctionWatch Forums, particularily those that deal with your plans for dealing with illegal items being listed on your site (I started the thead "Safety on Bidville", and those that commend your customer service for prompt responses.
I am wondering why you have neglected to respond to any of my questions or suggestions - questions that are being asked by others, and apparently getting timely answers from you. During the past 3 weeks, I have sent you 4 different emails regarding 4 different issues, and I have yet to receive a reply to any of them.
I would appreciate a response to at least confirm that you are receiving my emails. If you do not care to respond with answers, that is your perogative - I just want to verify that my emails are getting through.
posted on February 20, 2001 12:29:16 PM new
Hey RB, on this topic there is a guy posting on Yahoo forum that he just got TOOK this way.
Check out BOO HOO, maybe you can help him?
, and those that commend your customer service for prompt responses.