posted on September 13, 2000 06:50:01 AM new
As a true-blue PayPal fan, I'd like to say THANK YOU PAYPAL for making my first 4 mos on eBay successful (along with AW of course)! Both companies have enabled an internet & computer newbie to generate & conclude pretty nifty auctions!
Having said that, I would also like to say that I am FLABERGASTED by the extremely p-poor PR demonstrated by X.com, nee PayPay over the past month! Are you fools trying to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, OR WHAT!
What is WRONG with you guys???!!!
(1) We have the VERIFICATION SNAFU!
THEN
(2) We have the LOGO PIXEL SIZE SNAFU!
THEN
(3) We have the FEE INCREASE SNAFU!
+++TODAY WE HAVE THE CROWNING TOUCH+++
The: "Let's play eBay & shove it down their throats" SNAFU!
As Han Solo said: "I've got a bad feeling...!"
Some from-my-heart advice for the CLUELESS fools at x.com:
WAKE-UP! fast! If a loyal fan like me is becoming JITTERY & NERVOUS & UPSET & DISENCHANTED with the recent S-N-A-F-U-S, then it can be safely said that PayPal is:
IN DEEP DOO-DOO!!!!!!!!!
or was it Indie Jones?! I'm so upset, I can't remember now!
[ edited by tomwiii on Sep 13, 2000 06:59 AM ]
posted on September 13, 2000 11:44:41 AM new
I signed up for a verified personal account recently. I was still in the
process of getting my tax papers in order and wanted to get started using
PP. I was either going to get a business account or change the personal one.
Now I am not so sure. I do not want someone with PP's communication problems
having access to my accounts. Does one hand know what the other is doing?
I have had reservations about PP. I consider the 5.00 rebate fee a little
on the hokey side. One guy told me if I signed up under his ID he
would give me half his bonus! Fat chance and no thank you.
I have read alot of the threads and it looks like PP should add a C to stand for 'Poor Public Contact" recently not Pay Pal. I have been reading all morning. I am almost ready to make a decision to drop PP before I have even started. When I started typing this I still hadn't read anything in the threads
from PP this morning. Why not? I think PP needs more than one trouble shooter to mop up other department's messes.
A good start today would be explaining how PP will contact customers in the future.
How long before procedures will be implemented, etc. I do believe that the
people who clicked buttons on the PP site and were automatically updated
to Premier accounts would have legal cases. I may be wrong, but it definitely
looks like a case of a loooong Bait and Switch period too!
LabRat
[ edited by labrat4gmos on Sep 13, 2000 11:49 AM ]
posted on September 13, 2000 01:42:00 PM new
Hi all,
I can tell that many of you are upset, I would just ask you to review the information below.
It's important to note that this message is simply to remind our user of our Terms of Use -- which require accounts using our service for business use to register for a Business or Premier account. These terms have been in effect since X.com began offering Business and Premier accounts in June. It is also important to note, that X.com's PayPal service REMAINS FREE for consumer and personal use.
What is business use and who should have a Business account? Here is the relevant text of the message:
"What type of activity do we classify as "business use"? Using PayPal to collect payments for goods or services sold on a corporate website, personal homepage, or other forum counts as business use. Auction sellers — both individuals who make it a full time job and those who sell on a recurring, part-time basis — are also engaging in business use. If you have a Personal Account and you use it for business purposes, we ask that you comply with our terms of use and upgrade."
Our service is still the best around, at the lowest possible prices. And there are even more great features coming next month:
Earned income on your X.com PayPal account
Debit cards
International
Shopping carts
To provide the service, over and above the credit card costs, we provide and incur costs with:
Providing Buyer and Seller Protection against fraudulent transactions
I appreciate the feedback that you all have thrown my way, and I would like to apologize for my inability to answer every post. I would like to add that there are many things to running the business that may not be readily apparent to the end users. We are still the most feature-rich service available -- and the least expensive -- in relation to the products and services we currently offer and will be offering.
Many thanks for your support and for your feedback.
posted on September 13, 2000 02:14:57 PM new
PayPal:
Here's what you need to do. Really. It's not too late to pull this out of the fire.
1. Read a good book on Crisis Management.
2. Immediately GRANDFATHER all of the PayPal users who signed up under the old "Free Forever" TOS, so that they may continue to use their personal accounts for auction sales. That's what you told them. Want me to find the quote from YOU?
3. Quick like a bunny, get your International service up and running, and include it in an attractive package of Premium/Business services. And watch as folks, including some here, choose to upgrade anyway to receive the increased functionality that these upgraded products offer.
4. Get the CEO out of his office, and have him post on PayPal site, and here. His post should start something like this:
"First, let me tell you how sorry I am that miscommunications within our company resulted in inconvenience and loss of trust in X.com/PayPal. If we had to do it over again, we would. We're growing very quickly, and we've made far too many mistakes. But you don't want to hear excuses- you want to hear what we're going to do to rebuild the trust we've lost."
"Our users are the ones who have helped make us the #1 online payment service in the world. And we've dropped the ball. So effective immediately, all existing PayPal users with personal accounts will be permitted to use the personal accounts for business use. For free. Forever...."
posted on September 13, 2000 02:25:03 PM new
From PayPal's email to users, June 13, 2000, "Important News About Your PayPal Account."
"Premier/Business accounts are also available to individuals who would like to take advantage of the premium features. However, no one will be forced to upgrade to a Business/Premier account. Personal Accounts will remain FREE for individual use!"
(Bolding, amazingly, was by PayPal!).
I don't mind paying a reasonable fee for a good service. I just hate being lied to. I stil have this email, and the posts of PayPal reps are still on this board and others. This is classic bait and switch. It's illegal. It's a crime.
posted on September 13, 2000 02:30:36 PM new
1. PayPal marketed their services to auction sellers (as evidenced by the emphasis on auction logos, promotions by PayPal mentioning that they are accepted by X% of eBay sellers, and the like. They only had one service initially- that's the one they are now calling the personal account. They KNEW that the vast majority of their users were auction sellers. And they said it would be free forever (I know, I know, it still is). But they also knew full well that they intended to ad a premium business account, and charge for it. And when they introduced the Business/Premiere accounts, they said that no users (remember, most users are auction sellers) would be forced to upgrade.
I think most of us believed that we were to be grandfathered in under the initial promises in effect when we initially signed up. PayPal can change their terms whenever they want, but when they scream to a bunch of auction users: "Free Forever," and later pull the rug out, that smells of bait and switch to me. And when they later say that no user will be forced to upgrade (and they are saying this on an auction discussion board, where most of the folks are, DUH!, auction sellers), and later retract that, it further instills a lack of confidence.
2. PayPal provides a good service, at a reasonable price, even under the business account structure. And they will be adding international service soon, that's great! That's also not the point. PayPal will try to hammer what a value their service is. And it is. That's just not the point. The issues are promises, assurances, trust, and good and legal business practices. They will also say: "But our basic service is still free, just like we promised!." True. But that's also not the point. The point is that they told auction sellers that they could have PayPal service for free, forever, and that they wouldn't be forced to upgrade. Now they are breaching that promise.
It's that simple. Not about value, or who offers a service for the best price. It's about keeping your word.
posted on September 13, 2000 03:14:15 PM newno one will be forced to upgrade to a Business/Premier account.
On the basis of that official statement from a PayPal spokesman, I clicked on "I am not a seller" to get access to my money this morning. My acount is now empty.
posted on September 13, 2000 03:16:59 PM new
Long time lurker, one of the few times I've posted. I'm a buyer on eBay, and what I like about PayPal is that the items i buy get to me much sooner than if I send a check or MO to the seller.
The speed and convenience to me, the buyer, are what I most like about PayPal.
HOWEVER the incredibly poor customer service that they have shown in the past 60 days is truly stunning.
Always free means always free.
I think what so many of you are truly annoyed at is not the actual fee structure, but the facted you ahave been lied to and decieved on a monumental scale.
I hope that people who sell Dept 56 collectibles will continue to use SOME kind of on-line quick, easy payment service, but if its not PayPal, that's OK. I don't much care, just want it to be easy.
I posted this over in eBay outlook first, so if you've read it already --*sorry*
posted on September 13, 2000 04:57:05 PM new
I want to respond to the accusation that PayPal somehow lied about its policy. This is untrue and unfair.
The login reminder page restates a policy that has been in place for months. The facts:
1. Below, in full, is the email that we sent to users in July. The relevant portion clearly states that "businesses using PayPal are required by our terms of use to create a Business Account."
2. A clear "Rules" box on our "Personal vs. Premier/Business Account" page (which highlights the differences between account types) states the requirement that businesses must sign up for a business account. This box has been on our site since June.
3. Our terms of use have also stated for weeks that if you are using PayPal to conduct "e-commerce on a regular basis," you need to sign up for, or upgrade to, a Premier or Business account.
We have always said that PayPal is free for personal use. That remains true today. We have also always said that business use requires a Premier or Business account.
I realize that there are a number of occasional sellers who want clarification on what constitutes business use. Obviously, there is a big difference between the occasional seller who sells one beanie babie a month, and a seller who sells dozens of items per month. Today's reminder was only directed at sellers who conduct e-commerce on a regular basis.
It is not possible for PayPal to subsidize these businesses and continue to provide this service for all.
From: PayPal News [[email protected]]
Date: Saturday, July 8, 2000
Subject: Important news about your PayPal account
Dear [FIRSTNAME],
Last month we wrote to tell you about the launch of
PayPal’s new Premier and Business Accounts. These
accounts included premium features such as 24/7 customer
service support and an automatic daily sweep of funds into
your bank account. And we also promised you that many
more premium tools were still to come. Now, we at X.com are
pleased to deliver PAYPAL'S LATEST SET OF FEATURES for
Premier and Business users:
· Web Accept: accept payments directly on your website
· Auction Tools: new ways to manage your online auctions
with ease
· Batch Pay: send affiliate payments to thousands of
people at once
· Downloadable Transaction Log
· Unlimited Credit Card Payments
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
ACCEPT MONEY ON YOUR HOMEPAGE
Our new Web Accept tool lets you accept payments directly
on your website. By posting Web Accept buttons on your
web pages, BUYERS CAN PAY YOU FOR PURCHASES WITH PAYPAL
INSTANTLY -- without leaving your site. Accepting
payments online has never been easier! (Pricing for this
feature is only a modest 1.9% on payments received, with
no flat fee.) Learn more about Web Accept by going to
our website:
https://secure.paypal.x.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/web/index-outside
Also, our Business Account users now will have NO LIMIT ON
CREDIT CARD FUNDS RECEIVED. Buyers who have reached their
PayPal $2,000 credit card spending limit can still charge
their card when sending a payment to Premier and
Business users.
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
AUCTION MANAGEMENT TOOLS
Collect auction payments quickly and easily with INSTANT
PURCHASE FOR AUCTIONS. This feature lets buyers pay you
simply by clicking on a logo in your auction listing; this
generates a pop-up form where buyers can enter their PayPal
username and password to pay you without even having to
login to our website. Also new, our AUTOMATED PAYMENT
REQUEST creates online invoices that you can distribute to
your winning bidders. It's fast -- you can send out 100
invoices in just 10 minutes! Visit our website to learn
more about our new auction tools for Premier and Business
Account users: http://www.paypal.x.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/auc/auction-business-tools-outside
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
SEND PAYMENTS THROUGH BATCH PAY
Now pay hundreds -- even thousands -- of people all at
once with X.com’s new Batch Pay tool. If you run an
AFFILIATE PROGRAM, A COUPON/REBATE PROMOTION, OR A
"PAY-TO-SURF" COMPANY, you no longer have to depend on
expensive and slow check runs to pay your customers --
Batch Pay can do it for you. (Batch payment transactions
cost the lesser of 2% or $0.25 per payment, far below
the cost of printing and mailing a check.) For more
information on X.com's Batch Pay, go to:
http://www.paypal.x.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/batch-outside.
And for those of you who participate in a "pay-to-surf"
or affiliate program, be sure to tell your administrator
you'd like to BE PAID WITH PAYPAL!
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
PREMIUM FUNCTIONALITY
In addition to all the features available on PayPal
personal accounts, Premier and Business users can take
advantage of these other special features and services:
· A DOWNLOADABLE TRANSACTION HISTORY available in
Quicken, QuickBooks, and comma-delimited text formats.
· Automatic sweep of your PayPal balance into your bank
account at the end of each day. (This feature is optional
and carries a modest 0.6% fee.)
· A 24-hour-a-day, 7-days-a-week exclusive customer service
hotline.
· Frequent special promotions, such as last month’s "Free
Listing Week."
· Automatic eligibility for X.com's AFFILIATE PROGRAM.
· Many Business Account users will be eligible to be
featured in our upcoming SHOPPING TAB, where over 2.5
million PayPal users will be able to make instant, online
purchases directly from you.
For more information on all the features vailable to Business
and Premier users, please visit our site:
https://secure.paypal.x.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/personal_vs_business-outside
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
It’s fast and simple to upgrade your personal account in
order to take advantage of these premium features. Please keep
in mind that businesses using PayPal are required by our terms
of use to create a Business Account. To upgrade, just login to
your PayPal account and click on the "Upgrade Now" button. The
upgrade process only takes a couple of minutes, and you’ll be
able to use our new payment tools immediately.
We appreciate your choice to use X.com’s PayPal service to send
and receive money, and thanks for helping to make PayPal the #1
payment service on the Web!
posted on September 13, 2000 05:52:04 PM new
[Hey -- if Damon can post his message 17 times, I can post my response to it 17 times as well, right?]
Oh, THERE it is, buried waaaaaaay down at the very bottom of a lengthy e-mail that few people would ever bother reading in full:
"Please keep in mind that businesses using PayPal are required by our terms of use to create a Business Account."
OK, so maybe PayPal DIDN'T lie after all. Well, except for the fact that they originally said that their services would be "free forever" and then changed their "terms of service" to require anybody who sells anything to sign up for a NEWLY CREATED fee-based business account. But that's not really a lie, right? More of a broken promise, I guess....
Unfortunately, Damon, you most certainly DID lie. After that e-mail was sent out you were asked point blank whether any users would be forced to sign up for a business account and you said "no". And that directly contradicts PayPal's own [albeit unobtrusively buried where nobody would notice] terms.
You had a chance back in July to come clean and say yes, people who sell on eBay and use Paypal will be required to upgrade to a business account and pay the associated fees. Instead, however, you chose to lie.
My only question now is what, exactly, is your relation to PayPal, and is there really a difference between you telling us a lie and "PayPal" lying to us?
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on September 13, 2000 06:01:54 PM new
I retrieved a post from June 12...
*********************************************
PayPalPaul
posted on June 12, 2000 09:54:09 AM
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Shelly,
[b]Yes, you can use PayPal to make sales from your web site right now. But soon
we will be adding a feature for our business accounts that will allow your
customers to make the purchase without leaving your site to go to
PayPal.com.[/b]
*********************************************
NOWHERE in that post, was it ever intimated, implied or other stated that a PAYPAL ACCOUNT should ONLY be used for PERSONAL USE.
posted on September 13, 2000 06:16:24 PM new
That was a question I asked, yeah.. have website(s)-yes, but have a merchant account, sure if they were going to let me use a personal account on one of the websites, I might have done it, thought about it, but then, not all customers on the websites know about PayPal, it would be a hassle to have customers sign onto PayPal (if they didn't know about it) so we just stayed with a merchant account for that.
posted on September 13, 2000 06:31:46 PM new
Just a note to the invisible "Paypalites" and the angry mob.
The only good thing is we know how this will play out. It will be one of two ways.
First and formost we have Ebay to thank for this entire model
They change a fundamental part of the user/company interaction and make sure few people notice it.
Then they change user interface without warning and give the appearance of suddenly shoving it down people's throats.
Then they duck - tap dance - dodge - and weasel word as fast as possible. They claim it is your fault for not noticing - they go blind when they are presented with their own words back to them - and they keep repeating the same thing over and over, in the hope that it will become true.
(What you have seen over the past 24 hours is the equivilant of watching a company tap dance to the sound of one hand clapping)
In the end - (one) They will see enough people leaving and it will attract enough negative media attention that they will come to some grudging accomdation with users that remember the BS about "We make our money on the float"
Or, (two)they will soon lapse into sullen and bitter silence and try to ride it out since they refuse to listen to their customers. They will figure that they will make enough on these new fees on the ones that are left - than the damage from the ones that close their accounts.
It's up to those who use their services now to see how it plays out. Ebay has done it both ways and have found that the second option is more damaging in the long run.
posted on September 13, 2000 07:12:07 PM new
If PayPalDamon gets to place the same message to all the boards, I figured I could do the same.
For those who plan on filing consumer complaints here is the information. You are more than welcome to post this to other threads or boards. PayPal is regulated by the Federal Trade Commission. PayPal is probably regulated by the California Department of Financial Institutions at the state level. And PayPal may be regulated by the Federal Reserve if it is a financial holding company. Complaints are taken seriously both at the state and federal levels. Complaints are also re-reviewed when a company is seeking regulatory approval such as for a new business acquisition or the chartering of a new bank, etc.
Federal Trade Commission
Consumer Response Center
600 Pennsylvania Ave NW
Washington DC 20580
or
1-877-FTC-HELP
or
https://www.ftc.gov/ftc/compaint.htm
AND
Department of Financial Institutions Consumer Information Desk
801 K Street, Suite 2124
Sacramento, CA 95814
1-800-622-0620 or (916) 323-0189
[email protected]
AND
Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System
Division of Consumer and Community Affairs
20th and C Streets NW, Stop 801
Washington DC 20551
which will most likely forward the compaint to the San Francisco Federal Reserve since PayPal is based in California so e-mail and phone are
[email protected]
(415) 974-2228
posted on September 13, 2000 11:34:47 PM new
Thus far I feel PP has promised, and broken promises regarding...
-no chargebacks, ever
-never a fee
This is the same business whose spokesman has stated that although Paypal wants carte blanche permission to withdraw monies from my checking account, they would NEVER do so without my explicit permission.
uh-huh. Sure.
Does anyone else see a bit of a credibility problem here?
I suppose that somewhere buried in the fine print of their contract, they have covered their corporate backsides. How nice for them, as it probably means they cannot be successfully sued.
But the fact of the matter here is that this current "you-must-be-a-business" move IS a bait-and-switch program. The clever way they've handled the situation may not be illegal, but it's as unethical as h*ll.
(And I'd better not get started here on that big surprise of an 'UNVERIFIED' tag that all my customers see when they try to send me cash!)
I will NOT deal with a business that lies to and/or deliberately misleads its customers, and I CERTAINLY will not recommend it to MY customers! I'll find some other way of accepting credit cards, or cease accepting them altogether.
The Paypal logos came down from every place on my auctions/web pages tonight.
posted on September 14, 2000 10:39:55 AM new
Ooohhhh I see now. Paypaldamon, you are right and thousands of auction users are wrong. It's all so simple..... Give me a break.
[ edited by gmccall on Sep 14, 2000 10:41 AM ]
) off...
