posted on September 14, 2000 05:52:30 PM new
Hi all:
I'm back from making rounds on other boards. There are clearly a lot of concerns and questions about PayPal's recent reminder message. I can’t answer all of them in one post, but I want to address some of your most important concerns.
We have always said that PayPal would be free for person-to-person payments. When people started using it for e-commerce, we evolved as a company, expanded our features, and in June created Business Accounts (for companies) and Premier Accounts (for individual entrepreneurs). We told our users that we wouldn't force people to upgrade, but that didn't mean it was OK for business users to violate our terms of use and conduct their commerce with a PayPal Personal Account. That's why we sent out an email in July that reminded business users of our policy.
While 250,000 of our users did understand what our terms of use required and decided to upgrade to or open a Premier or Business Account, a number of users either honestly weren't aware of our policy or else chose to ignore it. Since we assume that most people like to play by the rules and hence wouldn't expect PayPal to continue to subsidize their auctions with free credit card processing, customer service, and fraud protection, we sent the login page as a reminder to our active users. That's all it was, just a reminder of a policy that we've publicized before -- not a new one. It wasn’t meant for someone who occasionally sells personal items online; it was meant for those who are part-time or full-time sellers. We're sorry if the page seemed abrupt or ominous to some of you. It certainly wasn't intended to be. We were just trying to make sure that you all knew about our existing "business use" policy.
We also wanted to be straightforward and notify you that we're considering a new policy to enforce our terms of use. We hope we won’t have to, but if we do, we’ll strive to be fair and we'll be sure to announce the new policy through emails and content on our website at least two weeks before we implement it. Contrary to what has been reported on some threads, no policy has yet been determined; we have not decided on a specific transaction limit, or even whether this would be the best approach. We can say this: We don't intend to surprise anyone by automatically upgrading their account or shutting them down. We may have to limit costly functionality on Personal Accounts (like the ability to accept unlimited credit card payments), but everyone will have a choice, and as we’ve said all along, no one will be forced to upgrade.
Please understand that PayPal can’t subsidize large volumes of credit card transactions -- especially since we'll be giving a big part of the float back to our users starting next month in the form of income on funds left in your PayPal account. So, if you're selling goods to make a profit, we're asking you to play by the rules and upgrade to the account that is most applicable to you (either Premier or Business). We want to make online payments safe and easy for everyone, but we need your help to do this.
If you have thoughts or concerns on what our policy should be, please email us your suggestions (mailto:[email protected]). Since I can't possibly respond to every specific comment or question on the boards, please also use this email for any questions you may have. I will make sure that the whole team (including management) sees your comments, and we will try to answer every question as soon as possible.
Thanks again for your comments, and for caring about PayPal. We appreciate your feedback.
posted on September 14, 2000 07:13:14 PM new
"We have always said that PayPal would be free for person-to-person payments. When people started using it for e-commerce, we evolved as a company, expanded our features, and in June created Business Accounts (for companies) and Premier Accounts (for individual entrepreneurs). We told our users that we wouldn't force people to upgrade, but that didn't mean it was OK for business users to violate our terms of use and conduct their commerce with a PayPal Personal Account. That's why we sent out an email in July that reminded business users of our policy."
People would NOT have started using it for e-commerce, if PP had not encouraged it! PP went out and actively persued the auction buyers/sellers to use the service. EVEN gave incentives!!!! Steadfastly maintaining ALWAYS FREE! I dare say probably 95% of your entire body of registered users primarily use the service for auction transactions. I could be wrong because I have never seen any stats BUT I am willing to bet I am correct in my assumption. From your comments above, it sounds like PP never intended THAT to happen! Did PP really think they could build up more than a million users by just having them "beam" payments to their babysitters or gardners? I THINK NOT. That is why the site morphed very quickly to accomodate auction users. It is almost as though PP was designed especilly for the auction sites!Whether you meant to or not your statement makes it sound like there are users taking advantage of your service! It is actually the other way around.
As a buyer, I like the ease and convienience of being able to make a payment without leaving my home. As a seller, I really don't care how I get my money, just as long as I do. I'm probably not alone in that.
I think PP needs to go back to the drawing board and come up with a system that works well for BOTH buyer AND seller. It is not really fair to expect the "RECEIPIENT", translated auction seller thanks to PP's marketing stradegy, to bare the burden alone. However, I'm pretty sure PP recognizes that if it started charging "PAYEES", translated auction buyers, to use the service to make an AUCTION payment, it wouldn't be long till they had NO USERS. PayPal is probably counting on sellers NOT refusing PP payments for fear of losing sales. They may have gambled wrong. Only time will tell for sure.
posted on September 14, 2000 07:38:10 PM new
So if Paypal is free for person-to-person payments, that must mean that those of us who sell on eBay aren't persons. Paypal has decided that we are less than human.
Why would anyone do business with a company that openly says they are less than human?
Try treating us like human beings, Damon. And keep your promises to us.
Sellers are people too, Damon. And we don't like being lied to.
posted on September 14, 2000 08:16:19 PM new"We have always said that PayPal would be free for person-to-person payments."
Again with that word "always". Forgive me if I'm wrong, but originally "you" [meaning PayPal] didn't say ANYTHING WHATSOEVER about person-to-person payments vs. other types of payments. You simply said "PayPal will always be free". Period. The personal/business distinction was NEVER MENTIONED until this past June.
You changed your terms in June, breaking the original promise you made to induce people to sign up with your services. Fine. Whatever. It happens all the time, and you should consider a succesdsful career in politics. But would please stop LYING about it now??? Enough with this "always" crap!
We also wanted to be straightforward and notify you that we're considering a new policy to enforce our terms of use. We hope we won’t have to, but if we do, we’ll strive to be fair and we'll be sure to announce the new policy through emails and content on our website at least two weeks before we implement it. Contrary to what has been reported on some threads, no policy has yet been determined; we have not decided on a specific transaction limit, or even whether this would be the best approach. We can say this: We don't intend to surprise anyone by automatically upgrading their account or shutting them down. We may have to limit costly functionality on Personal Accounts (like the ability to accept unlimited credit card payments), but everyone will have a choice, and as we’ve said all along, no one will be forced to upgrade.
Your terms require certain people to upgrade to a business acount, and you are "considering" a way to "enforce" your terms. Which is to say you plan on forcing people to upgrade. But then, a few sentences later you have the gall to repeat for the umpteenth time that you DON'T plan on forcing anyone to upgrade.
Next time, Damon, at least have the decency to put these sentences in separate paragraphs so it's not QUITE as obvious that you hold us and our intellects in such utter contempt.
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on September 14, 2000 08:22:40 PM newenforcev.t.: To impose (obedience, etc.) by force.
When you "enforce" a policy which REQUIRES certain people to do something, you are "forcing" those people to do that thing.
You want to change your terms whenever you want? Go right ahead. You want to force people to upgrade to a business account if they fit your description of a "business"? That's your right.
BUT STOP LYING TO US ABOUT IT!!!
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on September 14, 2000 08:39:24 PM new
I just went back to paypal and looked at their TERMS OF USE. Now, under Section V, #3, it clearly states that in order to use a business or premier account, that we would be REQUIRED to enter a tax id. #. Clearly, Paypal is very screwed up as I am sure a few million of use DO NOT have tax id #'s and would most certainly NOT qualify to be a business under Paypal's terms of use. So, Mr. Damon, please explain that one!! I do not have a tax id # nor do I plan on getting one in the near future. I am a small time seller and all most all of the features under a business/premier account, I would have no use for. I do not have a webpage nor do I need a shopping cart. And I can still pay for an auction by just going to your site instead of needing to pay from the auction page. I think that alot of people are being mislead, lied to, and conned. They are signing up for this business/premier account and really, unless you have a webpage where you sell items, other than Ebay, this stuff is of no use to the small seller. Paypal is contradicting itself every time that you turn around. I think that they need to read their own Terms of Use before they go spouting off and telling us what to do. Just my 2 cents.
posted on September 14, 2000 09:12:35 PM newDamon,
Do you really believe what you're saying???
Do you really not understand our point of view???
PayPal is now placing the blame for failing to upgrade our accounts on us, implying that we're DISHONEST LEECHES, sucking the lifeblood out of PayPal and placing an undue burden on your fee-paying customers.
WE'RE ONLY DOING WHAT YOU TOLD US TO DO WHEN WE SIGNED UP.
"We have always said that PayPal would be free for person-to-person payments."
You said it would always be free. PERIOD. No "free for person-to-person accounts which EXCLUDES payments for merchandise or services" was ever mentioned.
"When people started using it for e-commerce..."
Are you KIDDING??????!!!!!!! Maybe you weren't AROUND PayPal 7-8 months ago when I joined, but the entire MARKETING STRATEGY PayPal used was to entice online auction sellers to join and ACCEPT IT FOR BUYER PAYMENTS. It was our "job" AS SELLERS to get people to join PayPal by putting YOUR LOGO in our auction listings, with the lure of $10 (later $5) "sign-up bonuses", AND YOU MADE SURE WE DID SO by giving us "referral bonuses" as well.
So don't PRETEND now that YOUR INTENT wasn't for us to use our PERSONAL PayPal accounts IN E-COMMERCE!!!!!!!!!!!
"We told our users that we wouldn't force people to upgrade, but that didn't mean it was OK for business users to violate our terms of use and conduct their commerce with a PayPal Personal Account."
Can you please explain to me, if you're NOT FORCING people to upgrade, but it's NOT OK for "business users" (still UNDEFINED) to conduct commerce with their PayPal Personal Accounts....just what you expect us to do??? You don't force me, and I don't do it---WHAT THEN??? Since it's "NOT OK", but I won't be "forced" to upgrade, will my account be CANCELLED by you??????????
"a number of users either honestly weren't aware of our policy or else chose to ignore it.
We SAW the policy announcement, were CONFUSED as to WHO EXACTLY IS DEFINED AS A "BUSINESS", and asked you who is now REQUIRED to upgrade. All we got back from PayPal was "no one will be forced to upgrade."
"most people like to play by the rules."
DON'T YOU DARE LAY THAT ON US. We've BEEN playing by PayPal's "rules", the rules you had when we joined, the ones that said "FREE FOREVER". You change the rules in midstream, rules which YOU YOURSELVES NEVER DEFINED FOR US AND STILL HAVEN'T, and when we asked for a definition you said, "Oh, don't worry about it, because no one will FORCE you to abide by our new rules anyway."
"It wasn’t meant for someone who occasionally sells personal items online; it was meant for those who are part-time or full-time sellers.
There you go again. In one post you say the people who MUST UPGRADE are those with 30 or more payments per month. Then it's anyone who sells more than one beanie per month. Then it's anyone who EVER SELLS ANYTHING. Now it's everyone BUT "occasional personal item sellers". MAKE UP YOUR MIND.
"no policy has yet been determined....We may have to limit costly functionality on Personal Accounts (like the ability to accept unlimited credit card payments)"
Why on earth do you pull a stunt like this when you haven't even DECIDED yet what you're going to do about accounts that DON'T UPGRADE????????????????????
Whoever you have doing your customer relations should be canned immediately.
posted on September 14, 2000 11:00:07 PM new
Below are the things that were promised by PayPal when we signed up. I saved the original pages when I signed up as I do with all services. This way it is not possible for companies to rewrite history.
When I signed up I agreed to what is stated on these PayPal pages, nothing more. In most every instance the word *free* is the key word used to entice people to sign up and also to bring more users by using the 10.00/5.00 bonus. Most every time the word auction is used, it is associated with the word *free*.
posted on September 15, 2000 05:26:43 AM new
the more I read paypal's rhetoric the more irritated I get. I'm finding the posts more patronizing (sp) and accusatory towards us...the customer. I would never have agreed to get involved with paypal if it hadn't been free, and I will only use it if it remains free, the minute they start to charge, I'm outta here. this is one service I can easily leave behind. another credit card service will come along with free service sooner or later, if not checks and money orders worked fine before and they'll work fine in the future.
kerrydaway
Do what you feel in your heart to be right - for you'll be
criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do and damned if you
don't. Eleanor Roosevelt
posted on September 15, 2000 06:54:44 AM new
Paypal should be free for ALL auction sellers. paypal courted the auction seller with promises of free credit card transactions. They said it would always be free, they said they make their money on the float. A company of this size does not start up without a 5 year plan, it just doesn't happen. Which means they new these upgrades would be comming when they told us auction sellers it would always be free. They said they would not force anyone to upgrade yet, "we are considering a new policy to enforce our terms of use", in by book "enforce" means "to force".
Auction sellers should be exempt from this inforcement because PayPal new all about us auction sellers when they created this pay system and I doubt they were at all surprised when so many of us signed up for this FREE service. So yes I see this as bait and switch. Once my auctions have ended and I have received all of my paypal payments for those auctions, that will be the last time I take PayPal. By the way I did upgrade because of there up and comming "ENFORCEMENT". The way I see it, if I didn't, I could have been held legally responsible for the fee's I may have avoided if I did not upgrade when this enforcement came down the pike. Think about that before you breach their terms of service.
Please forgive any spelling erorrs, I'm not the smarted person in the world, but I know when I feel like I have been lied to.
posted on September 15, 2000 07:02:49 AM new
PayPal if you really want to be fair why don't you split the charge between the buyer and seller. Why does the buyer get this service for free, they are the ones who danrned near demanded that we sign up. I didn't give a flying flip about accepting credit cards, I signed up becasue I was tired of all the deadbeat bidders when they discovered I wouldn't PayPal. Now that it is more difficult to get the referal bonus, it seems that the number of people who want to use paypal has droped as well. So I thing I will drop PayPal. I don't need the head ache or the bite out of my profit.
posted on September 15, 2000 07:52:39 AM new
Knock off the revisionist history PayPal. Go back and click the links in Jacqueg's post.
The sales pitch PayPal gave us was "FREE FOR SELLERS" -- not "free for person-to-person" payments.
FREE FOR SELLERS -- those were your words PayPal.
That was the pitch when I signed on last year. When busness accounts were launched, we were told no one would be forced to upgrade.
I took you at your word. I even planned to open a separate business account after the shopping cart launch.
Now, you're trying to make it sound like sellers who haven't upgraded are dishonest.
Face it, the PayPal business model didn't work. You couldn't make enough money from the float. Big businesses didn't sign up to accept PayPal payments from all of us little auction buyers and sellers. We weren't your original target for fees. You couldn't lure in the big guys so you're chasing the little guys.
Most of us probably would have gone along with it, too, if we had been dealt with in an HONEST, forthright manner. But PayPal chose to take the low road.
X.com has no business being in business. You can't run one. You can't be trusted.
posted on September 15, 2000 10:02:55 AM new
PayPalDamon,
Were you around when Ebay tried their now infamous "Reserve Auction Fee" debacle? People remember when a company goes against what they PROMISED to their customers.
Ebay started their bid payment program, clearly aimed at costing PayPal customers. But they decided to charge for it. I never went to them, and although I don't want to, might just due to the fact that they learned their lesson and TELL THE TRUTH to their customers now.
I do sell through Ebay, but I am not in "business". I am selling personal possessions, mostly to pay skyrocketing medical bills and afford groceries for my family (Yeah, I know that tiny violin is playing it's heart out for me. But it is the truth). And occasionally, I buy as well. That doesn't mean I am a business. PayPal needs to rethink their model of all Ebay users as businesses. Only a small percentage are.
Hey, here's an idea:
Create a new "Division" of PayPal for those who are clearly businesses. Call it, Business.PayPal.Com. Look for the businesses. On Ebay, they are typically noted as Power Sellers! Easy to spot! When they have a rating of over, say, 1000, chances are, they are a business. Charge a minimal amount to process the $, and make your money there. Market to them. Leave the individuals out of it.
posted on September 15, 2000 01:15:09 PM new
Well, at least Damon apologized for something. That's a start.
I can't believe I am trusting my money to a firm that announces a new policy before it's finished. PayPal can't define who *is* going to be required to upgrade. They can't tell us the penalty for *not* upgrading. They don't even know when the policy will be ready. Heck, they don't even have all their functions up and running, but they're sure quick to whine because we're not paying the premium.
The "we need your ideas" part should have come out first. Damon posts (occasionally) in at least three forums that I know of. Why weren't we the users consulted? Old school thinking is hard to change, I guess.
posted on September 15, 2000 04:05:56 PM new
Gee - I guess that I'm just too damn dumb. I read the link and it looked like it said
"Paypal is completly free to sellers"
Because I am stupid - those words that look like "Paypal is completly free to sellers" to me, really must have said.
"Paypal is free to a small and everchanging group of individuals who are not businesses - but it might not be free - because we will determine what a business is - and you might be one so you better watch your step - but we won't tell you what makes you into a business - because we don't know yet - but, once we figure it out, we'll be sure to let you know - so that we can "enforce" our unknown and unwritten rules upon our ignorant and forgetful customers who thought we said "Paypal is completly free to sellers"
posted on September 15, 2000 05:17:24 PM new
DEAR PAYPAL/X.COM,
I WILL HAVE TO AGREE WITH MOST OF THE COMMENTS GEARED AGAINST YOU.
IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT YOU ARE NOW FDIC INSURED BUSINESS/INSTITUTION,
MEANING THAT FUNDS, THAT COME THROUGH YOU, ARE BEING REINVESTED,
CONTINUOUSLY, BY YOUR FINANCIAL PLANNERS, INVESTORS AND ADVISORS. YOU ARE
ALREADY PROFITING FROM US. AS A FINANCIAL/BUSINESS CONSULTANT FOR A FORTUNE
100 COMPANY, HERE IS MY PREDICTION: YOU WILL LOOSE THIS BATTLE! SIMPLY FOR
THE FACT THAT YOU ARE AIMING AT YOUR CUSTOMERS/CLIENTS VS. COMPETITION.
PAYPAL(X.COM) YOU ARE FAIRLY NEW COMPANY, JUST REMEMBER, YOU MIGHT LOOSE
YOUR CLIENTS JUST AS QUICKLY AS YOU GAINED US.
JUST IMAGINE, IF PAYPAL/X.COM LOGO REMOVED FROM ALL OF THE AUCTION LISTINGS AND IN
ADDITION TO THAT WE EDIT IT WITH:
PROPAY.COM
BILLPOINT
TRADESAFE
BIDPAY
AMAZON 1-CLICK
I-ESCROW
AND NUMEROUS OTHERS......
GREED IS A HORRIBLE QUALITY FOR A BUSINESS, OF ANY SIZE FOR THAT MATTER. PLEASE,
HIRE A CUSTOMER RETENTION CONSULTING FIRM THAT HAS AN EXPERIENCE IN
MULTI-MILLION CUSTOMER BASE OPERATIONS BEFORE YOU ALL WILL BE SUBMITTING
YOUR RESUMES ELSEWHERE.
posted on September 15, 2000 07:43:36 PM new
It's time for Mr. Musk to sell x.com and find a new start-up idea... preferably one that does NOT require any public relations skills. He obviously has none and does not know how to surround himself with anyone qualified to deal in this area.
posted on September 16, 2000 12:52:06 AM newloosecannon: Really, six months? I wouldn't have given it that long. Three months, tops. But judging by the events of this summer, I think it will start moving up in about a month.
posted on September 17, 2000 04:27:13 PM new
PPD: one other thing why not shore up paypal instead of instigating new charges... for instance.... go to dogpile.com plug in paypal and search usenet. In there you will find peopel that are using paypal to feather their own pockets...basically robbing the sellers that have helped build paypal. Here is an example.... I dont' know how many referrals sellers have received I think i've only had about 30 bucks worth give or take a few dollars.
posted on September 17, 2000 05:31:13 PM new
DAMON: WOULDN'T YOU MIND EXPLAINING HERE IN PUBLIC WHY PAYPAL SEIZED MY MONEY, AND WHAT GAVE PAYPAL SUCH A RIGHT?
AS OF NOW, NOBODY FROM PAYPAL HAS TAKEN A MINUTE TO TELL ME "YOUR ACCOUNT IS RESTRICTED SPECIFICALLY FOR THIS OR THAT"
DON'T KNOW HOW THIS WOULD END UP. I SURE KNOW THAT I'LL TAKE THIS TO THE END, NO MATTER IF BY ARBITRATION, COURT, OR MEDIA. OR MAYBE HEADING TO THE FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION BUREAU WOULD BE ENOUGH.
MY MONEY IN MY POCKET, NOT IN PAYPAL'S FREEZER WITHOUT ANY RIGHT OR REASON. THIS IS ALL I WANT, AFTER THIS - GOOD BYE PAYPAL FOR GOOD.
I DON'T WANT ANOTHER WEEKEND WITHOUT WORKING AND ARGUING ALL AROUND FOR MY MONEY.
posted on September 17, 2000 05:48:22 PM new
As others have repeatedly posted to you, it's the weekend. At least chill till Monday. And if you read the TOU, you would have seen it gives them the right to freeze an account for investigation.
posted on September 17, 2000 05:53:14 PM new
Excuse me, Damon seems very active on weekends.
Besides, they restricted the account on Friday, why not on Monday? I've emailed and called them on a weekday without receiving an answer. Is that serious company?
posted on September 17, 2000 06:08:30 PM new
Further, I remember a couple months ago, I had a buyer with a fraudulent credit card that paid me almost $1,000 through BILLPOINT, well, BILLPOINT emailed me and told "dont send your goods... THIS transaction might be fraudulent" BUT THEY DIDN'T FROZE THE ENTIRE ACCOUNT.
If this is PAYPAL argument, that they are investigating a fraudulent charge, WHY THEY FREEZE THE ENTIRE ACCOUNT? MEANWHILE THEY KEEP RECEIVING OTHER PAYMENTS LIKE A MOUSE-TRAP.
Well, lets see if Paypal or any of its hidden "defenders" have something to say about this...
posted on September 17, 2000 06:30:40 PM new
Hi numisreal,
I reported your information when we talked via email to the group handling it so they can advise you.
I don't work on weekends, but I do drop in to see if there are issues that I can attack. Customer service issues are a little different than the policy issues I am facing out in the forums (which I am working on based on the user feedback, but I can remind that I do not create policy and I am addressing all concerns) and I have directed your case for immediate attention on Monday.
posted on September 17, 2000 06:42:21 PM new
DAMON: Truly appreciated.
You are a gentleman. You should be heading Paypal instead of fighting back around like the Quixote against the windmills. Paypal doesn't deserves Damon, Damon is way ahead of that company.
I do hope that this whole matter rectifies by Monday, otherwise I'll keep going and going, I know I'm not alone.
posted on September 18, 2000 09:31:03 AM new
PPD: damon while i know you are realy busy I hope that you have time to address some of the questions asked in this forum.
posted on September 18, 2000 10:26:52 AM new
I would really like to know when Paypal goes international. I live in Canada only about 25 miles across Lake Ontario from New York State but I cannot use any of the payment services available. Is there any way I could be notified when they go international? Does anyone know of any international payment services?
